http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93 Infant and adult male <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision">circumcision</a> has long been a controversial procedure. Common in North America but relatively uncommon (aside from among those who do it for religious or cultural reasons) everywhere else, the procedure's health benefits have been <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/conditions/circumcision1.shtml">debated</a> for quite some time - until the results of a recent National Institutes of Health study <a href="http://www.washingtonpost en-us Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:42:21 EST Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:14:57 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#20 Do you know what percentage of American adults practice unsafe sex?  Here, where condoms are available, and clinics can be found around the corner?  Statistics say it's <a href="http://www.aegis.com/news/mh/1990/MH900705.html">less than half of t Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:14:57 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#19 Yes, but if you have a child who insists on playing Russian Roulette, would you prefer they do it with an 11 chamber gun or a 5 chamber one?  You will not prevent people from being unsafe.  You will also not magically make condoms available to th Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:18:56 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#18 I suppose that's true in some strange hyperbolic parallel universe, but the control group in this experiment experienced 1-in-80 infection rates (in Kenya) or 1-in-200 (Uganda) per year.<p> The whole circumcision study is a red herring distracting from the Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:03:48 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#17 I think your basic argument(no unessential, irreversible medical procedures on non-consenting infants) is valid, but you don't need to stretch the truth quite so much to make your point.<p> <blockquote>There is no benefit to circumcision until adulthood</b Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:53 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#16 I'm not arguing that any adult should be denied the opportunity to seek circumcision when they choose.  That seems fine and practical to me.  On the other hand, the odds don't seems that good.  It's like having 11 empty chambers in Russian R Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:03:55 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#15 How about:  circumcision available to rural Africans, who can barely afford food much less condoms?  Possibly:  circumcision, a one time procedure that actually reduces the danger, and doesn't require you to make the right decision every tim Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:15:24 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#14 <i>would you not vaccinate your daughter against HPV because you want her to "be more careful" in who she sleeps around with? </i><p> I think you have me confused with the Christian Right. My intent is not to put added pressure on my kid to use condoms or Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:26:38 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#13 <i>The HPV vaccine is not at all similar to infant circumcision. For one thing, it can be applied at any time before the woman becomes sexually active. The HPV vaccine has 100% efficacy against the targeted strains of the virus, and has no known side eff Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:22:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#12 <blockquote>This is not true - as I noted above, the HPV vaccination is very similar to infant circumcision - do you feel the same way about the HPV vaccination (i.e. that it should only be given to consenting adults)?</blockquote><p> The HPV vaccine is <i Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:00:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#11 <i>The historical practice of infant circumcision is irrelevant. A lot of people have done a lot of stupid things in the past. </i> <p> I put that in there merely to point out that it's a relatively safe procedure and we have a pretty good idea of what Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:46:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#10 <i>I would rather teach him to be careful in his actions.</i> <p> This isn't a very good reason in and of itself. Think about it in relation to the case of HPV (the sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer) vaccinations - would you not vac Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:32:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#9 The historical practice of infant circumcision is irrelevant.  A lot of people have done a lot of stupid things in the past.  And, in fact, circumcision was rare in America and Europe until it was revived by quacks and neo-Puritans in the latter Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:11:44 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#8 <i>You could also chop off their entire Johnson or, heck, shoot every African man dead. Either one would reduce AIDS infections by 100%. I would say that reducing AIDS infection rates is not, by itself, a sufficient rationale for such actions.</i> <p> Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:54:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#7 You could also chop off their entire Johnson or, heck, shoot every African man dead.  Either one would reduce AIDS infections by 100%.  I would say that reducing AIDS infection rates is not, by itself, a sufficient rationale for such actions.<p> Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:41:28 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#6 <i>The title of this study should have been "Circumcision not anywhere near as effective as condoms." </i> <p> That is true, but circumcision + condoms is better than uncircumcised + condoms. It's nice to say that everyone should use condoms all the ti Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:21:25 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#5 Forgot to add, all four of the cut as adult crowd were from rural areas of the South. Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:16:24 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#4 <i>"I was born in 1945 in the U.S., so my status is obvious."</i><p> Born in 1945 in the U.S., <i>in or near a city</i> most likely.  During my tour in 'Nam I came down with infectious hepatitis and got medevaced to Japan.  On the same ward as th Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:15:08 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#3 Lol... great point. Though I hadn't thought of it exactly that way, I was thinking there must be more effective things we could do to stop the spread of AIDS, whether in the US or in Africa. Personally, I wouldn't consider this particular factor as importa Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:08:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#2 The title of this study should have been "Circumcision not anywhere near as effective as condoms."   Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:36:00 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2006/12/19/122811/93#1 I doubt that there will be many volunteers based on these studies; there are certainly more reliable ways to prevent HIV infection.<p> The larger question is much harder to answer. I was born in 1945 in the U.S., so my status is obvious; but if I had a son Wed, 27 Dec 2006 03:35:54 EST string http://www.treesandthings.com/search/