Iran Won't Play Nice And What Will The World Do About It? (Trees And Things)

Iunebrave: Re: Iran Won't Play Nice And What Will The World

Sun, 15 Apr 2007 01:58:39 EST

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Nekiihrac: Re: Iran Won't Play Nice And What Will The World

Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:34:40 EST

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MayorBob: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 1 Sep 2006 20:13:36 EST

I will call people on their pro-Israeli nonsense and people on their pro-Palestinian nonsense when I get interested enough in the argument to give a shit. When the discussion took the tack it did between Israel Good & Palestine Bad and Isr

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 1 Sep 2006 17:55:04 EST

Funny, Ms. Sue pulls out AIPAC propaganda against Iran, and you are silent about it. I thought you were willing to criticize Israel, but your attention seems to be focused more on people who criticize them.

fishist: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:57:37 EST

I fail to see how that link would enlighten me on military numbers.

I am of an open mind on the question of military disposition but I am beginning to suspect that, for you, this is simply a propaganda issue, another way that Israel can be made to look

MayorBob: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 1 Sep 2006 07:14:33 EST

No, I'll sit this one out. Foolish me, I thought when I wrote this one up a bit more time would be spent discussing Iran and a bit less time spent discussing the Israeli/Palestinian thing. Face it Jimmy, you simply traded in one preconceived no

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 1 Sep 2006 00:00:06 EST

I'll criticize the Israelis on their bullshit

Go right ahead.

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:58:14 EST

http://www.treesandthings.com/comments/2006/8/23/18715/2692#39

MayorBob: Re: What a surprise...

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:20:57 EST

"On the other hand, MayorBob's preconceived notions about the plucky Israelis need no confirmation."

Well that comment shows you know absolutely squat about my feelings or opinions in the matter. But, don't let the fact that I'll criticize

fishist: Re: What a surprise...

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:56:15 EST

"The information I found about Israeli armor..."

This is what I'm asking for. Can you provide a link or other source? As you mentioned, everything I've read so far shows the Israelis significantly outnumbered at least tactically and p

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 04:52:55 EST

Here's a great example of where my preconceived notions came from. It wasn't until the late '80s that I began catching on to the facts of the matter.

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Thu, 31 Aug 2006 02:49:04 EST

On the other hand, MayorBob's preconceived notions about the plucky Israelis need no confirmation.

The information I found about Israeli armor showed that there was approximate parity between them and the Arabs.

Because it conforms with his preconceived notions.

marduk: Re: Never give up, never surrender!

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:38:07 EST

Ah, I get it! In your rule book, we can reply solely to the exact words posted and not at all to what we see as a general mindset delineated in post after post.

Yeah, why respond to somebody's argument when you can just cast aspersions on their mo

fishist: Re: What a surprise...

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:00:01 EST

I don't think so. Try to find the numbers of military units for the war between Vietnam and Cambodia (1978) or for the China-India War (1962).

I'm sure if either of us had the time to do book research we'd find our answers but the internet just se

JimmyHavok: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:48:33 EST

without tumbling the government

The Musharaff regime is responsible for most of our troubles. They created the Taliban, and they're doing dick to fight them now. They're giving A-bomb tech to anyone they find useful.

It's absurd t

JimmyHavok: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:37:16 EST

"Unsecured," amigo, "unsecured." You missed the most important word there. Our safety would be better served by putting our resources into securing those bombs, rather than getting into another war.

John Bolton was put in charge of wor

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:20 EST

I still haven't found numbers, have you?

Funny how that works, isn't it?

fishist: Re: What a surprise...

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:34:08 EST

The reason those numbers are significant is that they are left to stand alone, as if that was the entire Israeli force. They are never followed up with more accurate figures for the Israeli forces. It's propaganda meant to reinforce the (false) image of th

PaulHolloway: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:06:09 EST

LOL.

In other words, what I would like to see is the reasoning behind the fact that your default position on many foreign affairs issues - not just this one - seems to be "Western leaders always lie, but Middle Eastern/Third World/Anti-Western leade

T Slothrop: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:56:17 EST

Lets examine the facts dispassionately...

Please don't take this as a slam on your very well-written and astutely argued comment. I agree with its "interesting" moderation.
But it wasn't what I was attempting

uncarved block: Nuclear Iran = Greater Stability?

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:46:04 EST
I have to wonder how much of the talk coming out of Washington right now is bluster, sabre rattling to show disapproval of an inevitable happening. Ground war is pretty much off the table, no matter what Rummy's been smoking, and all but the m

CaptainLiberal: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:12:31 EST
I'm all for that. We should be working non-proliferation from every angle. If it's possible to stop Pakistan without tumbling the government and throwing the place into (more)chaos, then it should be done.

cloudofdust: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:26:55 EST
More importantly, because there's nothing we can do about Pakistan and India having the bomb, but there is something that can be done about Iran.
India and Pakistan don't have to fight proxy war. They just go head-to-head.
Yes, Pakistan alread

CaptainLiberal: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:04:49 EST
But I'm not. I'm arguing that there is nothing the West can do about things that are already in the past, having not invented time travel. It's not a difficult concept, Jimmy. Russia already has nukes, so the West certainly can't stop the

PaulHolloway: Re: What a surprise...

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 04:18:50 EST
As Jimmy says, for peace in the region all Israel has to do is to do as the international community has asked for the last forty years, and pull back to the 1967 borders, or reach a realistic and mutually agreed settlement with the Palestinians. All player

JimmyHavok: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:59:26 EST
Even if Iran was led by Mr. Rogers today, allowing Iran to have the bomb mean that when the next coup/revolution occurs, then that person/group/government has the bomb.
You seem to be arguing that Iranians are somehow less rational than...oh,I do

JimmyHavok: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:52:29 EST
I think you go too far the other way, Paul. It seems to me that the Iranians looked at the difference in the way North Korea and Iraq have been treated, and decided they want to be treated like North Korea.
That doesn't mean we haven't been lied t

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:50:06 EST
The reason those numbers are significant is that they are left to stand alone, as if that was the entire Israeli force. They are never followed up with more accurate figures for the Israeli forces. It's propaganda meant to reinforce the (false) image of th

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:41:04 EST
Most of the Arab world is willing to accept Israel...if they will go back to the '67 borders, and stop their aggression against their neighbors.
Their excuses for their actions don't hold water.

Travis Bickle: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:54:38 EST
Paul, let's face some facts. If the Palestinians, Hezbollah, and the rest of the usual suspects in the Middle East are going to continue to play that "why did you stick all these Jews in our midst instead of keeping them in Europe back in 1945" they

ms sue: Re: Never give up, never surrender!

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:41:43 EST
Yea well "illiterate" is obviously imprecise since you can read perfectly well and it was meant to communicate that your response lacked any reasonable connection to the post you presumably just read. "Offtopic" likewise.
Ah, I get it! In your ru

ms sue: Re: Forget about the middle east, let's talk about

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:14:39 EST
don't know what you mean by "True Believer", but I am an authentic conservative
I, for one, truly believe you.

CaptainLiberal: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:43:54 EST
Because Pakistan and India haven't just finished fighting a proxy war? More importantly, because there's nothing we can do about Pakistan and India having the bomb, but there is something that can be done about Iran.
Everyone knows that once you h

Steve Urkel: Re: Forget about the middle east, let's talk about

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:52:51 EST
I don't know what you mean by "True Believer", but I am an authentic conservative, though not the kind most people on the left have the idea of. And I like jokes. I'm not a Republican, Christian fundementalist, or Neo-Con.
Conservatism has greater vari

fishist: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:50:57 EST
I agree about it being nearly impossible to find information about the exact balance of forces (though you have now piqued my interested and you should expect to hear back form me if when I find more information) but the fact that Isreal had 2000 tanks (10

marduk: Never give up, never surrender!

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:45:33 EST
marduk_kur, you could successfully turn this back on me if, and only if, I were known for my long pro-Israel-no-matter-what posts on every single related thread; if I never allowed for any difference of opinion; and if I labeled anyone who might disagre

cloudofdust: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:26:25 EST
It will be a world constantly on the brink of a limited (or maybe not so limited) nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel, regardless of who is right or wrong.
How is this more terrifying than living in a world where Pakistan and India are poise

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 16:03:16 EST
marduk_kur, you could successfully turn this back on me if, and only if, I were known for my long pro-Israel-no-matter-what posts on every single related thread; if I never allowed for any difference of opinion; and if I labeled anyone who might disagree w

marduk: Oops, forgot the kicker...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:05:12 EST
"Do you really believe that Iran desires nuclear weapons in order to turn Israel into a flat glass plain?"

marduk: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:01:37 EST
Funny sue. You concede everything I just pointed out but seem convinced you've been mistreated by my moderation. C'est la vie.

PaulHolloway: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:13:34 EST
Lets examine the facts dispassionately. By which, I mean treat Iran as we would any other nation, rather than a member of "the Axis of Evil", etc. Because the fundamental fact is that Iran is not pro-Western, and that is the entire raison d'etre for the cu

T Slothrop: Re: Forget about the middle east, let's talk about

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:00:42 EST

"There was a time I would have used shumway/urkel's name there, but gordo has kind of blown his own cover"
What do you mean by that?

Easy there, Steve. I meant no insult.
I meant that I no longer see you a

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:33:42 EST
The only thing implied in my repeating the question in my post -- "I know your opinion of Israel and the U.S. here. Do you have any problems with Iran or with its current president and his infamous musings?zz' -- was that JH sees the issue as black and whi

Steve Urkel: Forget about the middle east, let's talk about me

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:27:39 EST
"There was a time I would have used shumway/urkel's name there, but gordo has kind of blown his own cover"
What do you mean by that?

T Slothrop: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 12:49:00 EST
I have to say, Paul, it's always entertaining to watch a True Believer at work, whether it be you on the fringe left or someone like rombuu on the fringe right. (There was a time I would have used shumway/urkel's name there, but gordo has kind of blown his

marduk: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:54:02 EST
I dunno Paul. Iran has a lot of very good reasons to want nuclear weapons. I agree that 'the west' could probably come to some accommodation to prevent it as long as nuclear power generation is unaffected. I also agree that demonization and fearmonge

marduk: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 07:42:13 EST
To you and marduk and another poster who labled my question to Jimmy H. on this thread as "offtopic" or "illiterate," what a joke.
Jimmy-"Iran has rational reasons to want a nuke and if I were them so would I, as both the US and Israel have a hist

PaulHolloway: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:23:34 EST
And exactly what evidence do you have that Iran has nuclear ambitions beyond the production of power? In the 1970s, under the Shah, the US recogni

PaulHolloway: Re: What a surprise...

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:06:24 EST
ms_sue,
Lets face some facts. First of all, what Ahmedinejad is saying is common currency in the Middle East, and has been since 1947: why should the people of Palestine pay for the crimes of Europeans, inflicted against other Europeans, in a primarily

JimmyHavok: Re: This is about Iran, not Israel

Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:02:05 EST
I'd prefer to see a world without an Iranian N-bomb. However, I recognize why they want it, and I think our current policies are making it inevitable.

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:59:57 EST
This is typical mythologizing.
I went looking for information on the balance of forces between the Israelis and the Arabs in the Yom Kippur/Ramadan war, and found things like this

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:58:56 EST
Splitting the difference isn't necessarily moderate. If someone says, "Let's lynch the bastard!" beating him half to death isn't the moderate position.
My position is based on the facts of the matter. No doubt you think yours is too...as we'

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 22:38:34 EST
Well, Sue, how do you answer Ahmadinejad's question? Why should the Palestinians (and the Lebanese and the Egyptians) pay for the European crime of the Holocaust?

T Slothrop: This is about Iran, not Israel

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:27:09 EST
Why does almost every discussion about the Iranian nuclear weapons program devolve into a debate on the morality of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians? Or whether Lebanon is an Iranian or Syrian client state? Or whether that nutjob the Iranians elect

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:01:51 EST
Corrections: Make that "labeled."
Also, although my "I guess that's just a mistranslation...or, along with a call for the annihilation of Israel, welcome words, perhaps?" was decidedly not directed at any one person, it did not add to the anything cons

tomc: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 16:29:16 EST
I did read the article. I thought it was very interesting. Reminded me of an analysis a few years ago when the Taliban told the US that they would not hand over Bin Laden. One arabic-speaking analyst said that a true understanding of that

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 16:15:11 EST
Hi, Paul. I wondered where you've been. Thanks so much for the link. That site is a doozie. Glad to hear that the guy is just sorely misunderstood and is merely suggesting regime change. Maybe his quoting Khomeini about wiping Israel off the map was

Steve Urkel: I got him a Cross pen

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:10:08 EST
Why do you hate the Jews, Jiminy? Is it because Shlomo didn't invite you to his Bar Mitzvah?

dzetetes: Re: My fading memory of history

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:25:22 EST
Only slightly less well-known is this: Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

PaulHolloway: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:14:01 EST
Holocaust denial and a call for the destruction of Israel.
See my reply to ms_sue above. Ahmedinejad did neither of those things, as any well-informed person ought to know.

PaulHolloway: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:10:36 EST
ms_sue,
What "infamous musings"? The lie that he wants "Israel wiped off the map" - when he actually just called for regime change? The twisting of his statements on the Holocaust into straight denial - when he is actually saying that if the Holocaust

tomc: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 13:55:30 EST
"I remember the news stories I red as a teenager, about the plucky Israeli army, and how it stopped an overwhelming force of enemies through sheer courage"
Israeli tank commanders were particularly noted for their courage in the Israeli-Egyptian

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:53:23 EST
What you've done is set an interesting foundation upon which all actions by Israel that you consider to be terrorist or inhumane are to be duly noted and reviled, yet any such similar actions by any surrounding countries or groups are to be considered just

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Sun, 27 Aug 2006 00:42:13 EST
Get your war on, Sue. Tehran awaits liberation.
I consider outrage against Ahmadinejad to be counterproductive. Let him say what he wants. Making a lot of noise about it just confirms the US's hostile attitude toward Iran, and confirms

gerrymander: the 40-year-old madhi

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:31:53 EST
Would only that getting Ahmadinejad laid would solve the problem.

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:09:27 EST
I guess the question is, is he really going to launch nukes once he gets them (Iran tested some new missiles this past week), or is he trying to get Iranian minds off the real issues: poverty and the lack of basic services?
My initial thou

gerrymander: ...good and hard

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:09:27 EST
How about the USA just gives them a couple warheads (we have plenty) and we all just move on?
I'm serious, Iran will be a nuclear wasteland.
There, I fixed it for you.

tomc: Re: What a surprise...

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:47:29 EST
Well, Holocaust denial and a call for the destruction of Israel.
I guess the question is, is he really going to launch nukes once he gets them (Iran tested some new missiles this past week), or is he trying to get Iranian minds off the real issues: pove

tomc: Re: My fading memory of history

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:42:27 EST
"Never get involved in a land war in Asia" - General Douglas MacArthur

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:52:26 EST
Do you want names?
Seriously, I'm surprised that anyone would be so blithe about the man's utterances, which include more than just Holocaust denial. It's almost as if expressing any indignation or concern would then mitigate your stance, which doesn't

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:46:13 EST
"Do you have any problems with Iran or with its current president and his infamous musings?"

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 04:29:22 EST
I think that over-reacting will make Iran a greater danger than it is now...but that's what the warmongers want, and that's why they are shouting at you nearly every day about what a horrible threat Iran is.

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Sat, 26 Aug 2006 04:27:43 EST
Who has Ahmadinejad persuaded that the Holocaust is a fraud?

wetkarma: My fading memory of history

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:37:04 EST
I know I must be getting old.
After all just a few years ago I was hearing stories about how the "iranian people" loved America and it was the evil ruling dictatorship that we had a problem with.
Nevermind of course that the last Iranian election sa

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:23:46 EST
But you didn't really answer my question, which was "Do you have any problems with Iran or with its current president and his infamous musings?"

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 21:21:22 EST
It's already made a difference, and I don't think he is a lone wolf.

JimmyHavok: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 20:08:36 EST
I suspect he's really just playing to the home crowd. It's not like his "authoritative opinion" is going to make any real difference.
The huge furor over it does demonstrate the power of the Likudnik propaganda machine.

ms sue: Re: What a surprise...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:45:44 EST
I know your opinion of Israel and the U.S. here. Do you have any problems with Iran or with its current president and his infamous musings?

MayorBob: Re: Recognize Taiwan

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:31:51 EST
Actually, we recognize the Peoples Republic of China as the sole legitimate government for China and have since 1979 when President Jimmy Carter formally switched our recognition from Taipei to Beijing. In reality, we maintain a dual Chinese policy,

JimmyHavok: What a surprise...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:22:52 EST
The US invades their neighbor, who was almost completely disarmed. Israel invades another neighbor (again). Can you think of any reason the Iranians would balk at giving up their nuclear ambitions?
Frankly, if I was being threatened by the U

tomc: Re: Have your nukes...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 18:22:43 EST
Maybe that's the real problem...not enough nukes.
Gosh, I've been sayin' this for years.

maml: Recognize Taiwan

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:08:55 EST
For one thing, not all nukes are the same, and delivery systems are pretty tricky. We keep all the really nice nukes for ourselves.
Also, we recognize Taiwan. What's China going to do?

keta: Re: Have your nukes...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:27:41 EST
...just imagine the boner Qatar will have...
Around these parts we call that a Qatardon.

CaptainLiberal: Re: Have your nukes...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 14:57:59 EST
Okay, but only if we give them to every player in the middle-east. Maybe that's the real problem...not enough nukes. I know those namby-pamby non-proliferation folks might not see the genius, but let's just count all the nukes on the planet, di

maml: Have your nukes...

Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:46:35 EST
How about the USA just gives them a couple warheads (we have plenty) and we all just move on?
I'm serious, Iran will be a nuclear power, let's be their friend.