The Debate Within Islam: Radical Rhetoric -Vs- Moderate Messages (Trees And Things)

ms sue: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sat, 3 Feb 2007 11:34:26 EST

: As Islam grew from a minor religion and became successful, it shifted in tone from a "lets all get along" to "kill the infidels wherever you find them"

From a review of Martin Amis's new book "House of Meetings":

Fanatic, murderous ideolo

airbag: Re: the ground under the feet

Sat, 3 Feb 2007 10:51:16 EST
The problem of cultural inertia is the central issue in the article you just read by Iqbal. While explaining the problem through a summary of the history of Islam, Iqbal makes a larger argument, claiming that the experience of revelation as transmitted thr

wetkarma: Re: the ground under the feet

Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:33:23 EST

This first sentence goes far beyond your response to me about what views are "representative" of the Islamic nations in general. The sentence dismisses any one who claims the right to interpret Islam on the terms of faith they themselves test

airbag: the ground under the feet

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:26:25 EST
I didn't bring up Iqbal as an argument against the conclusions that Syed Mizra reached. The difference between them is not the syllogisms they produced but the scope that their criticism tried to embrace. They both reject tradition as proof of something in

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:45:01 EST
"Nick Griffin is a racist hate-monger."
Free speech is free speech. We have it, you don't.
"Perhaps you could show how that affects the rights of the rest of the population to express political dissent and complaints? "
Someone getting arrested fo

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:28:12 EST

You keep evading this, to the point where it's hard not to suspect that, in contrast with all your lamentations about the eroded freedoms of Americans, you're in favor of arresting people for certain speech you disagree with.

N

wetkarma: Re: Heart of the Matter

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:37:46 EST

I now realize that Dr. Iqbal wants to drink my blood.
There are great thinkers in any successful religion -- its almost a requirement for a religion to scale (Scientology perhaps being an exception). That said, the issue is not whether they

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:05:12 EST
"intimidating journalists into exposing their sources just don't worry you"
In the entire history of this country journalists have never had the right to secret sources, so it's not "intimidation" when courts subponea this information.
"You feel saf

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Wed, 31 Jan 2007 00:45:54 EST

I was never concerned that Section 215 of the USA PATRIOT could "have the effect of chilling constitutionally protected speech". When it was in effect it didn't alter my reading habits any. But chilling or not, that provision of th

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:02:54 EST
Regarding the Wolf case, there's no comparison between failing to comply with a court's order to turn over documents, which is not even a free speech issue, and jailing someone for what they actually say. This is also another example which has nothing to d

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:42:57 EST
Last year Reporters Without Borders dropped the US down 9 places to 53rd place in a comparison of press freedom in different countries."One particularly egregious US case cit

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:32:12 EST
"The US does not have freer speech than the UK"
Except the US does, as noted by the arrest of the man I linked to above. I think you actually are in favor of the UK's speech infringements. Which puts you in a weak position to criticize those of us with

MizDarwin: Re: The Debate Within Islam: Radical Rhetoric -Vs-

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:02:23 EST
I think Mr. Brooks has confused "Muslim" with "Klingon."

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:52:46 EST
(1) The US does not have freer speech than the UK. Being enshrined in the consitution has not prevented that right from being denied in the past.
(2) Excessive libel laws? Let me ask you - in which country was it that journalists first showed that Bush

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 07:42:05 EST

What makes you think I hadn't read that before? I stated it was a complex subject, then linked to a far more nuanced discussion of it than I could provide.

From comment no. 25:

Compare any Christian nation with

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:28:38 EST
Yes, some Christian philosophers consider Christianity the root of all that is good. What a shock. That doesn't negate my original statement that Romans also had, analyzed, and applied individual liberty.
Individual liberty in Roman t

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 01:19:37 EST
Since your dismissive of that fact Americans have freer speech than you do in the UK, and you don't even consider the right to bear arms to be part of liberty, yet you claim those of us in the US have had our liberties diminished, it perhaps you could prov

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 01:02:28 EST
What makes you think I hadn't read that before? I stated it was a complex subject, then linked to a far more nuanced discussion of it than I could provide.

shatov: Re: Read any good links lately?

Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:02:34 EST

A country where one has to get permission from the state to own an ordinary shotgun is not a country which loves liberty.

Because British people really do need to have shotguns. It makes dealing with the marauding Indians, bear

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:51:40 EST

but I can assure governmental encroachments on free speech, such as the example in that link, are unconstitutional here.

And so the constitution is safeguarding US citizens' freedoms against government encroachments? Perhaps we

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:44:46 EST
Taken from the 'essay' (a speech, really)

Christianity, which in earlier times had addressed itself to the masses, and relied on the principle of liberty, now made its appeal to the rulers, and threw its mighty influence into the scale of a

Lou: I try, I really do.

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 23:35:57 EST
A country where one has to get permission from the state to own an ordinary shotgun is not a country which loves liberty.
While we've been discussing the UK's draconian gun laws
But that's it, isn't it, Gord...we're not. I know this is y

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:52:53 EST
You claim "There is no really difference between the US constitution and the unwritten constitution of the UK as far as freedom of speech is concerned", but I can assure governmental encroachments on free speech, such as the example in that link, are uncon

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:28:35 EST
Americans have guns? Personally I don't consider it a freedom that is worthwhile. I know that we will disagree about this, and nothing either of us will say will convince the other, or anyone else here. So let us leave it at that.
Freedom of speech? The

Steve Urkel: Re: Read any good links lately?

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 22:02:30 EST
A country where one has to get permission from the state to own an ordinary shotgun is not a country which loves liberty.
While we've been discussing the UK's draconian gun laws they've been readying plans to install x-ray cameras in lamposts to monitor

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:52:27 EST
The UK did do a lot of bad things while fighting against the IRA, but we are talking about attacks on individual liberty for the whole of society. The changes in the law that Bush has pushed through because of the "war on terror" are much wider ranging tha

Lou: Read any good links lately?

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:49:49 EST
Like your own, perhaps?
From your link...He had earlier pleaded guilty to possessing the shotgun without a firearms certificate
In other words, it sounds like Britain has gun laws such that you must own a certificate for each (each type

airbag: Re: Heart of the Matter

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:48:49 EST
Syed Mizra says:
"Therefore, Qur'an and Sunnah (prophetic instructions) are the true foundations of Islamic terrorism. Palestinian problems, wars of Iraq and Afghanistan etc. are only a plea to wage Islamic Jihad."
Only? etcetera?
Wow, this syllo

Steve Urkel: Re: But not free to ambush...*

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:51:19 EST
"his illegally-held, pump-action shotgun "
What sort of free country is it where it's illegal to own a pump action shotgun? I owned a pump action shotgun when I was 12.

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:48:11 EST
In the Roman view, what might be described as individual liberty was dependent upon the individual "type" to which the individual "naturally" belonged. This is a complex subject, and you though may find the ideas I'm expressing laughable, they are by no me

Lou: But not free to ambush...*

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:43:12 EST
From the article...
His claim that he had shot at them from halfway down the stairs was disproved by scientific evidence that showed he must have fired his illegally-held, pump-action shotgun from the doorway of a downstairs room.
From what th

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:42:46 EST
As have I. I like political philosophy and history, both are fascinating subjects. But assuming that individual liberty is linked to Christianity is laughable, given that the Romans had well defined civil liberties (for their citizens), and Ham

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:04:51 EST
I get the impression you haven't read your own link, and I've read considerably more than a wikipedia article on this subject.

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:51:58 EST
The concept of individual liberty predates Christianity as a religion. As I said, read some history.

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 13:09:08 EST
"Of course these thinkers connect individual liberty and religion together - that was the only way in which they could argue without being persecuted."
The concept of individual liberty wasn't invented by closet atheist "thinkers", it was the product of

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 12:35:20 EST
Hobbes, correctly, thought Christianity undermined the absolute obedience to rulers his theory of the state required.
"I recommend reading some history "
You seem to be the one who needs to do some reading.

gerrymander: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 11:50:55 EST
We had much longer, yet we didn't carry out the wide-ranging attacks on individual liberty that the Bush administration has.
If you honestly believe this, you are tragically ignorant of the steps taken in the U.K. to combat the IRA. Read up on

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:00:56 EST
Prior to the enlightenment, and even after it, all writers paid lip-service to God. Even then, many were suspected of being atheists. Of course these thinkers connect individual liberty and religion together - that was the only way in which they could argu

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 05:54:23 EST
Wait, did you actually read anything by Hobbes? Because he was not a proponent of religion, and was actually quite a royalist. Not to mention that he was almost accused of atheism and heresy. Read Leviathan sometime, and see what he says

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:20:35 EST
The Founders would disagree with you. Most were Deists, and they quite explicitly wrote in that this nation was not going to establish a religion. They were adamant about it, really. So I don't see how we can claim it to

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 23:10:18 EST
I do agree that there are a lot of young disaffected Muslims. I believe if you look among unemployed young people say between the ages of 16 and 30 who cannot find employment, you will find a similar number of disaffected radicals among Christians, M

rEvolution inAction: Re: Not So Off Topic

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:37:54 EST
Deuteronomy 7:1-5
"When the LORD, your God, brings you into the land which you are to enter and occupy, and dislodges great nations before you--the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites: sev

rEvolution inAction: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:31:02 EST
The fact is, 9/11 and its perpetrators were universally condemned and scorned, even in Islam.
Personally I commend them.

rEvolution inAction: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:28:11 EST
Which nations do you consider "Christian nations"? America certainly isn't, nor is any country in Europe.
America is a Christian nation.. which is why it's so fucked up.

rEvolution inAction: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:23:45 EST
Christianity may have its violent nutjobs bombing abortion clinics and the like, but the Muslims seem to have covered the waterfront on suicide bombings against people they just don't like.
Christianity also has the B2, Hellfire missiles, and the

wetkarma: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 19:34:41 EST

I love the idea that you consider a "moderate" Muslim one that issues fatwas against people you dislike. Apparently a "crazy" Muslim is one that issues fatwas against people you like. Realistically, most moderate Muslims do not believe

Thalia: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 17:30:36 EST
I love the idea that you consider a "moderate" Muslim one that issues fatwas against people you dislike. Apparently a "crazy" Muslim is one that issues fatwas against people you like. Realistically, most moderate Muslims do not believe in the a

1fastdog: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 16:10:57 EST
Sloppy? This was in my last post, but somehow, someway escaped you. Apparently I'll have to bold it for you:
"The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."
September 27,

wetkarma: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:05:32 EST

Here's your fatwa against bin laden (and there's another one listed in the quotes below):
Clerics representing the majority of Spain's one million Muslims have issued what they say is the world's first fatwa against Osama bin Laden.
I th

Steve Urkel: Re: easy

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 14:01:41 EST
Because of the Jewish makeup of neoconservatives and the neoconservative movement I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but to traditional conservatives neocons have enlightenment, or liberal rationalist views regarding human nature, universality, nationhoo

1fastdog: easy

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:54:15 EST
If there is some other religion which is an equivalent menace to us as Islam is, please name it.
Neo-conservatism.

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:26:13 EST
Thinkers ranging from Acton to Tocqueville have commented on the connection between Christianity and individual liberty. Or see Hobbes on how relgiion obstructs an absolute state. You, like most facile commentators on this subject, do not have an understan

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:06:11 EST
The IRA isn't a threat to America. Neither are the Basques, who aren't motivated by religion.
"Which nations do you consider "Christian nations"?
Europe could be described as formerly Christian. But America and Europe wouldn't exist as t

ms sue: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:14:33 EST
Christian crazies can be just as dangerous as Muslim ones.
No dispute that that any group of radicals "can" be as dangerous as another group of radicals. But the differences between the two groups shouldn't be overlooked.
Regardless of whethe

1fastdog: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 10:20:31 EST
Where are the fatwas against bin Laden for 9/11 in nations that have implemented sharia? Where is the condemnation of the mullahs from the -key- muslim nations like Saudi Arabia? If the core traditionalist is indeed a minority, where is the mainstream r

shatov: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:28:19 EST
Christianity does not give rise to individual liberty.
Yes, Christianity is part of the cultural background of the Enlightenment and the idea of human rights and equality, but just as large a part of that cultural background is the pagan philosophy of

Thalia: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sun, 28 Jan 2007 02:05:56 EST
If you don't like McVeigh as a Christian terrorist, how do you feel about the nice folks in the IRA? The Basques? How about the folks bombing abortion clinics and advocating killing of doctors who provide abortions? Maybe you'd prefer the

wetkarma: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 23:49:31 EST

I trust the believers of any other religion. I've got a severe mistrust of organized religion in general, but Islam's adherents in the main body seem to be as "civil" as any other large faith.
Civil eh? Fair enough. Where are the fatwas agai

wetkarma: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 23:37:39 EST

" Reason being that if you're literal about works like the Bible or the Koran, you're going to be faced with enormous contradictions. The only way around this is to interpret the work -- to make decisions about what passages are really getting at,

Lou: Good point

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:59:35 EST
Yet, I must ask, what about those Americans who choose to convert to Islam? There is really nowhere we can deport them. I suppose they could be "hospitalized" under the guise of have a mental illness.

Steve Urkel: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:40:00 EST
"We could, as Gorgon points out stop all immigration from the middle east and put all the western Muslims to the sword. "
A benefit of ending the immigration of Islamists is that it reduces the likelyhood and need to kill them.

Steve Urkel: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 22:36:15 EST
"they both taste the same and have the same end results"
Compare any Christian nation with any Islamic one and It's obvious Islam and Chrisitanity don't have the same end results (among other things, Christianity gives rise to individual liberty).
"J

ms sue: Re: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:39:21 EST
From your last link:
"Fundamentalists have distorted it and made the religion into something other than a religion of peace," he said. "Jihad is the effort to conform one's life to the will of God. But for fundamentalists, jihad is war conducted on t

1fastdog: They're both poisoned fruit....

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:14:32 EST
...and they both taste the same and have the same end results.
I've lived all of my life in a sleepy little conservative town surrounded by more than the usual number of people on the outer fringes of Christian extremism. I've seen unwed mothers, litera

ms sue: Re: Heart of the Matter

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:34:19 EST
1fastdog, do you see little difference between the hard-core faithful that is the Christian right and radical Muslim fundamentalists?

dzetetes: Re: The Debate Within Islam: Radical Rhetoric -Vs-

Sat, 27 Jan 2007 01:20:12 EST
"We are the Muslims, We drink the blood of the enemy, and we can face them anywhere. That is Islam and that is jihad," according to comments by Omar Brooks
Mr. Brooks needs to go read his Qur'an more. Drinking blood is explicitly forbidden

uncarved block: Not So Off Topic

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 20:21:11 EST
If you look at the history, the region was violent well before the monotheistic religions took hold. The Babylonians and Sumerians were no slouches, but the Assyrians went even further

Standeck: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:32:12 EST
If history is any guide, violence is part and parcel of the human experience.
Again I agree. Wonder how long we'll have to wait for the reformation/evolution/fallout to settle. And what can the West do to speed the process?

coquito: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:53:40 EST
Actually the rump Christian minorities in those countries tend to be a bit violent as well (tit for tat tribal retribution mostly) so maybe there is something to that.
At some point in time, there's we could have said the same about people in any

Standeck: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 18:07:30 EST
key factor in whether or not either is a "religion of peace" has to do with how it is interpreted and by whom
Agreed! But this brings up the next link in the question chain; so if it's not Islam, is it Arabs? Or Persians? Or Indonesians?
Actua

coquito: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:17:38 EST
I didn't get a chance to add, because I was in a hurry, the many times in the Bible that people are called upon to kill nonbelievers, to stone sinners, and the like. As has been said many times, there may be a difference in the levels of peace and violence

coquito: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:08:49 EST
tried to boil down the basic reasons for this dichotomy. Vastly oversimplifying, Christianity says "love your enemies and forgive them." Islam, not so much.
Have you read both the Bible and the Koran? I haven't, so I rely on the parts of each tha

Lou: Off topic musing

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:04:19 EST
This current discussion has me thinking... Judaism, Chrisitanity, Islam...all three come out of the desert and all three have a pretty violent past (and future, sadly). Buddhism comes from a fairly nice area and is the grooviest of the four.

Standeck: Re: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 16:39:21 EST
Islam is whacked...maybe even a shade more than Christianity is whacked.
I think Islam may be per capita more violent. A quick Google indicates about 1.3M Muslims vs. 2.1M Christians

1fastdog: Re: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:19:04 EST
This is because the belief system is in -violent- conflict with the modern age.
As are the belief systems of pretty much every religion. You can randomly pick any of the major "my way or the highway" religions and find that the hard-core faithful

Lou: Re: Bold?

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:07:29 EST
You mean, I've been touched by an...angel? If so, I must kill you know. I hope you understand.

coquito: Re: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:05:45 EST
Well, at least you're not just picking on Islam ;)
But I do think that the idea of "moderate" vs. "conservative" works better than "literal" vs. "cafeteria." Reason being that if you're literal about works like the Bible or the Koran, you're going to b

MayorBob: Re: Bold?

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:04:09 EST
That was the voice of God-duh making sure your point was made.

Lou: Bold?

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:58:50 EST
I have no idea why the last part is boldface...I tried to fix it but to no avail.

Lou: I hate to say it, but...

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:56:45 EST
Islam is whacked...maybe even a shade more than Christianity is whacked. Yes, the Koran does speak about peace and tolerance and bonus points for that. Yet, it seems that after a casual skim of stuff online that a big part of the practices of t

1fastdog: transmission interrupted - files corrupted

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:48:13 EST
color me unconvinced that Islam, as it's normally practiced is anymore inclined to encourage its adherents to violence and atrocity than just about any other faith
Indeed. I daresay that there's plenty of religious nutjobs of every faith, that ar

wetkarma: Re: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:24:15 EST

The attacks of 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, and the rest of the list were committed by how many Muslims? Probably the total number of "radical Muslims" who believe their faith compells them to murder others and sacrifice th

MayorBob: Re: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:10:45 EST
But, without knowing the actual numbers (and I'm not sure where you'd go for them) of those Muslims who would kill and commit suicide attacks as part of their faith perhaps we can approach it from the other end. There are a billion Muslims in the wor

ms sue: Re: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 13:01:32 EST
Probably the total number of "radical Muslims" who believe their faith compells them to murder others and sacrifice themselves in return number what, thousands, maybe even in the tens of thousands.
It's hard to argue numbers without some support

MayorBob: Re: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:31:34 EST
The attacks of 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, and the rest of the list were committed by how many Muslims? Probably the total number of "radical Muslims" who believe their faith compells them to murder others and sacrifice themselves

wetkarma: Heart of the Matter

Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:49:20 EST
At the end of the day the attacks on 9/11, the madrid bombings, the london bombings ..(list goes on) were carried out by people who believed either in part or in whole that this was sanctioned by their faith/politics (in Islam its the same thing).
Wheth