http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740 In January of 2007, President Bush announced a new approach to the war in Iraq based on the concept of  <a href="http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/63423.htm">"Clear, Hold and Build."</a> Fundamental to the plan was an escalating in the number of troops deployed in Iraq and especially Baghdad - the escalation of boots on the ground was called The Surge. At the time, leading papers described the escalation as a <a href="http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ef29092a-a04f-11db-9059-0000779e2340.html?nclick_check=1">furt en-us Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:46:55 EST Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:44:24 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#64 <i>even if Zaquari was Saddam's lover.</i><p> It wouldn't have worked...not at least after Zarquari learned that Saddam was a swinger...even less so after Satan became Saddam's <a href="http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/dictators/saddam-hussein/saddamsouth Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:44:24 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#63 <i>The Senate report does that. The CIA's? Not so much.</i><p> Make your mind up, do you trust the CIA or not?<p>  <blockquote>if you don't want to trust US intelligence sources, that's your call.</blockquote><p> Despite this astonishingly tenuous ass Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:52:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#62 <blockquote><i>The same start point as a World War.  Yep...looks pretty justified to me</i></blockquote>Hey, I just remembered something: the whole 'preventing a wider war' thing looks even more absurd when you consider that the Russians truly <a href Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:55:51 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#61 Given the debate in the U.S. at the moment about whether to continue military involvement in Iraq, I suppose it's understandable that the debate is mostly trying to spin recent events in Iraq as supporting exclusively one side of the this argument, but I t Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:53:38 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#60 See my reply to 1fastdog below, Shy. We can argue about evidence as much as we like, but any explaination must take into account Zarqawi's presence and status in Iraq, post-invasion. The Senate report does that. The CIA's? Not so much. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:31:39 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#59 From your own link:<blockquote>A CIA report in late 2004 concluded that there was no evidence Saddam's government was involved or even aware of this medical treatment, and found no conclusive evidence the Saddam Hussein regime had harbored Zarqawi.</blockq Tue, 20 Nov 2007 09:42:57 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#58 By the way, I'll be happy to accept your ever lengthening silence as a tacit admission that you were utterly unable to find an example of my support for the war. Tue, 20 Nov 2007 07:08:04 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#57 The only cite Wikipedia provides is the load of horseshit Powell dumped on the security council. Powell's allegations don't stand, there's no evidence at all, only wishful thinking and conjecture such as yours.<p> No thinking person would give any credence Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:28:04 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#56 <i>That's been proven a total lie as well.</i><p> Look, pal -- you wanted a link, I gave you a link. If you think that's not good enough, provide evidence for your assertion which is at least as well-sourced as the WIkipedia link. The ball's in your court; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:23:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#55 <i>But for argument's sake, let's say Zarqawi was in Iraq as you're suggesting. What does that really prove?</i><p> It proves that there were sufficient connections between Saddam's government and al-Qaeda prior to the Iraq War to A) expedite the transfer Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:19:38 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#54 <blockquote><i>Are you saying that couldn't go through your comments on Plastic and never come across your support of the war?</i></blockquote>Try it. Dumbass.<p> <blockquote><i>One thing that can be guaranteed is when there's a topic critizing the GOP, yo Mon, 19 Nov 2007 21:37:27 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#53 <i>What the hell ever gave you the idea that I support the war in Iraq?</i><p> That's horseshit if ever I've smelled it.  Are you saying that couldn't go through your comments on Plastic and never come across your support of the war? One thing that ca Mon, 19 Nov 2007 20:20:32 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#52 11 of the 19 attackers were from Saudi Arabia...but who did we bomb?  Of course, it's not polite to bomb the feller we <a href="http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/L/c/bush_abdullah_chaching.jpg">hold hands</a> with. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:12:23 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#51 <blockquote><i>Can you not see the irony of digging up past grievances as a point of hypocrisy, when your own support of Iraq is the definition of hypocrisy?</i></blockquote>What the hell ever gave you the idea that I support the war in Iraq?<p> <blockquot Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:27:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#50 The key word in your link is "alleged" - and given the infamous quote about  "intelligence and facts being fixed around the policy" from the Downing Street Memo, any reliance on US intel from that period is a dubious proposition.<p> But for argument's Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:56:22 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#49 Can you not see the irony of digging up past grievances as a point of hypocrisy, when your own support of Iraq is the definition of hypocrisy? If you lambast one yourself, how can you support the other? <p> There are many differences between the Balkans wa Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:32:47 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#48 That's been proven a total lie as well. Is the US government complicit for the September 11 attacks because the attackers lived in the USA? BinLaden used a toilet in Dubai on several occasions, ATTACK! Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:18:45 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#47 OK, here's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Musab_al-Zarqawi#Alleged_links_to_Saddam_Hussein">one</a>, regarding a link between Saddam's government and al-Qaeda prior to the 2003 invasion. We have a known al-Qaeda terrorist (Zarqawi) traveling to Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:06:46 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#46 Not in a nice way...but there it is.  Long hard things, both big and small, spewing out their loads, climatic explosions, and death (the undeniable result of birth).<p> Also, don't forget the uniforms, clear lines of authority, and aggressive interrog Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:29:05 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#45 <blockquote><i>Hey, look over there! Clinton's cock</i></blockquote>Um, no thanks, but you go right ahead.<p> (Why, I wonder, do you feel compelled to try to start a discussion about genitalia when the topic is war?) Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:26:20 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#44 Hey, look over there! Clinton's cock! Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:50:40 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#43 Most <a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07322/834685-373.stm">news reports</a> which do report on the issue have noted that Al Qaeda in Iraq are being massacred.  Major papers are notably silent which says something as well. <p> The people we've Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:50:27 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#42 That's unmitigated horseshit. Every point you assert is a total lie. I challenge you to provide one cite. Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:49:50 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#41 ...  do we really want to create another Afghanistan?   Because that is the choice we are talking about, regardless of whether you thought that attacking Iraq was justified or not. <p> If the US leaves, Iraq turns into a sort of post-Soviet Afgha Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:21:20 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#40 Well...if the neocons have taught me nothing, they have taught me that if you want to make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs.<p> But really...you seen kinda het up with this.  Make a Kosovo sub and we'll look into it. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:45:03 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#39 <blockquote><i>Sometimes it's easier to win if you make your enemy weaker.  Unless I'm wrong, didn't we go after powerplants too?</i></blockquote>Sure. Power plants, cigarette factories, elementary schools, public housing, a bunch of television transm Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:37:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#38 Ummm, yes?  War sucks...but if I'm fighting someone and I really really need to win, I'll kick him in the balls.  Sometimes it's easier to win if you make your enemy weaker.  Unless I'm wrong, didn't we go after powerplants too?<p> Btw, how Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:23:19 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#37 By the way, I realize that in order to continue to claim the war against Serbia was "justified" you reject the historical facts (in this regard you're exactly the same as the neoconservatives who continue to claim the war against Iraq was justified), but I Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:03:51 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#36 <i>"this is like what Saddam did/the insurgents do; let's not become them"</i><p> This is a wise thing to think <b>before</b> you commit an atrocity.  Our nation has already stared into that abyss. Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:19:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#35 <i>this war is protested with focus groups (both sides), blogs, cold calling and the occasional march.</i><p> You neglect to mention the unindicted co-conspirators: the news media, the entertainment industry, and academia. Protesting the war became <i>fash Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:01:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#34 Yeah, that's what I meant.  Wow!  Gene Hackman...Oh. Owen Wilson.<p> Who the hell thought of casting him as a naval aviator, anyway?<p> Besides, I read some more reviews and it seems like the movie is filled with a lot of Rah! Rah! America rules! Fri, 16 Nov 2007 08:10:21 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#33 <blockquote><i>...it was called Behind Enemy Lines.  It's a toss up whether I'll get it...it does have Gene Hackman in it...but it has Owen Wilson too...</i></blockquote>It sucked. The thing is, see, that Owen Wilson is the anti Gene Hackman. That is Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:43:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#32 <blockquote><i>The 2.4T figure was based on estimates inclusive of what we'd spend next year for the war</i></blockquote>The linked story says the $2.4 trillion is what will be spent through 2017. (That, according to the GAO report, was "[u]nder the most i Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:36:22 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#31 Allow me to add some context to the discsussion.<p> Gerrymand is referring to this <a href="http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/24/2400000000000/">Plastic QL</a> I posted some weeks back where the chairman of the house budget committee (Spratt- D) said:< Fri, 16 Nov 2007 04:23:13 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#30 Wasn't there a really cool movie about someone shot down behind enemy lines in a Kosvarian landscape? Hey wait...it was called Behind Enemy Lines.  It's a toss up whether I'll get it...it does have Gene Hackman in it...but it has Owen Wilson too...plu Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:57:56 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#29 <blockquote><i>There was a link wetkarma posted recently which casually equated the money spent on <b>four years</b> of the Iraq war with one year of universal health care...</i></blockquote>Let's see: about $2 trillion is spent on healthcare in the US eac Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:18:03 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#28 <blockquote><i>make a Kosovo sub and we'll discuss it</i></blockquote>Not interested. The idea that going to war on the whim of the president is <i>ever</i> justified strikes me as extraordinarily foolish. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:11:25 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#27 somebody should recruit Niall over from plastic to do one. I bet he could write it in his sleep. what's his sig--where in the world is Radovan Karadzic.<br> <p> Here's a related one--is the US even trying to capture Bin Laden any longer? If not, why not? Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:56:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#26 <i>the surge and attendant 'awakening' among the Iraqi populace has decimated the hard core committed insurgents.</i><p> I hope you're right, WK.  I think it would be really cool if the Iraqi people collectively said, "fuck you" to the the insurgents, Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:14:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#25 <i><br> What the fuck good is a surge, if all it does is temporarily alleviate the problem? The surge goes away and the inevitable reappearance of the insurgents (now fresh and rested 'cuz they've been actively avoiding US troops) will be sure to follow, a Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:49:30 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#24 <i>One thing is clear -- our troops will be in Iraq for the forseeable future.</i><p> Which is why the surge, the war, and the whole damn shebang that makes up the clusterfuck that we call Iraq, is a total loser. Petraeus is planning on us being there for Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:57:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#23 <i>The reconstruction was the problem, and that might very well have been made worse by anti-war agitation,</i><p> Agitation my ass.  Vietnam was protested with agitation...this war is protested with focus groups (both sides), blogs, cold calling and Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:37:14 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#22 <i>Because we were right.</i><p> Only for the limited definitions you give above, and not even that without further qualification. There's no evidence that Saddam supported the 9/11 attack directly, but plenty of evidence that he had ties to al-Qaeda befor Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:14:09 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#21 make a Kosovo sub and we'll discuss it. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:10:19 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#20 "[Me} and your like-minded cohorts have bitched incessantly since before the first soldier set foot on Iraqi soil."<p> Yes, yes we have. Because we were right. We said up front the there was no evidence that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11, and as it t Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:07:03 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#19 I was fine with Kosovo and I'd have been fine with Iraq if it hadn't cost so much. The only problem being that the entire reason for an Iraq war was to spend gobs of money. Sort of a cart before the horse thing. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:00:55 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#18 <blockquote><i>You don't think that being forced in refugee status is ethnic cleansing enough?</i></blockquote>Of course not. The refugees were mostly fleeing the war. (Do you have any idea how many of the 700,000 you mentioned became refugees only <i>afte Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:50:24 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#17 You don't think that being forced in refugee status is ethnic cleansing enough?  Or does rape and murder have to be involved?<p> Anyway, we're far off topic.  Maybe this deserves its own sub. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:33:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#16 700,000 what? Refugees or ethnically cleansed? Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:28:55 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#15 I call bullshit.  So what that the dems put up 41 separate resolutions...Bush has been able to do pretty much whatever he wanted.  It's not like he's had any real opposition to his war (except in the polls of course...but your steely-eyed preside Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:15:43 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#14 Is 700,000 (est) enough for you? Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:10:49 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#13 <i>We've given Bush four and a half years.</i><p> No, you haven't. "Giving Bush time" implies both commitment during the referenced period, and an ability to revoke that commitment. Neither of these are true. For the former, you and your like-minded cohort Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:40:02 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#12 There was a link wetkarma posted recently which casually equated the money spent on four years of the Iraq war with one year of universal health care -- but perhaps you have a better opinion of Congress' ability to decline from engaging in stupid, expensiv Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:23:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#11 <blockquote><i>Serbia?  Hmmmm, let's see...massive ethnic cleansing, massive refugees, and oh yah...The same start point as a World War.  Yep...looks pretty justified to me</i></blockquote>What's your definition of "massive?" Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:18:21 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#10 Oh please...you can't seriously be comparing the two.  Now, if you had said the same thing about the war in Afghanistan...you know, that place that really did house the folks that attacked us, I might agree with you.  But comparing these two very Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:57:44 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#9 <blockquote><i>So...you're cool with an unjustified war as long as it can be done on the cheap?</i></blockquote>Good question. You should pose that question to someone who supported Clinton's war in Serbia but opposed the war in Iraq. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:22:27 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#8 So...you're cool with an unjustified war as long as it can be done on the cheap? Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:51:53 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#7 <blockquote><i>Your brevity is baffling me. Is it the amount, or the use it is being put to that's the point of your dire conclusion?</i></blockquote>The amount. Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:37:25 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#6 My perspective that increasing the number of people on the ground has accomplished in large measure the 'clear and hold' elements of the strategy. Unfortunately with little action on the political front, the build piece seems to be significantly missing. < Thu, 15 Nov 2007 07:37:22 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#5 <i>Most of the war's supporters have stressed how long the whole process was going to take, and urged patience; decrying someone who's asking for patience now strikes me as unseemly, or worse.</i><p> Really? I recall the complete opposite. In the run-up to Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:34:29 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#4    That was my vote, and not because I'm defeatist, or "want to see America fail", or what have you. The reason is simple: if you believe the insurgents and the terrorists are paying attention to US politics, the first time we're going to get a g Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:15:35 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#3    Your brevity is baffling me. Is it the amount, or the use it is being put to that's the point of your dire conclusion?<p>     FWIW, one of my key metrics- that I don't recall mentioning before- was the level of infiltration, and not Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:11:05 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#2 The Surge has one purpose: to buy political time for the occupation of Iraq. <p> It has succeeded.  Congress will fund the occupation at least until 2009.<p> You may recall that in the mists of ancient history (November 2006) the Democrats gained cont Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:56:26 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/11/14/75355/740#1 <blockquote><i>What are the key metrics you use to judge improvement and how are they trending?</i></blockquote>One key metric is how much borrowed money are we squandering in Iraq. By that measure, <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:50:14 EST string http://www.treesandthings.com/search/