http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976 For one US Navy veteran who went to Iraq as a private security contractor, Iraq was a horrifying experience. He was locked in a tiny solitary confinement cell, kept awake with loud music, bright lights and threatened with physical torture for months... <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19226700/">by US troops</a>. en-us Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:17:04 EST Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:58:21 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#44 Dude...why are you arguing with me!?  I'm agreeing with you! Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:58:21 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#43 <blockquote><i>If you were a terrorist, or insurgent, or whatever and you saw how America treats its own citizens...</i></blockquote>You mean how they kept him in an air-conditioned cell but then released him once they'd finished their investigation and ha Mon, 25 Jun 2007 07:52:04 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#42 <i>How would you have treated him differently?</i><p> Oh no, no, brother.  I'm with you.  The friggen' weasel should get down on his HANDS and KNEES and thank god he lives in a country that takes his safety so seriously.  I mean really...If Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:26:07 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#41 <blockquote><i>If this is how they treat an innocent bystander</i></blockquote>It's not entirely clear from the news reports, but it seems that the Army gave him a free ride to the airport and sent him home. How would you have treated him differently? Sun, 24 Jun 2007 21:37:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#40 <i>The obvious conclusion is that your premise is wrong and Vance was not involved in "nefarious activities" except as an innocent bystander.</i><p> Dude...the Army ROCKS!  If this is how they treat an innocent bystander, imagine what would happen whe Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:28:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#39 <blockquote><i>...if Vance was involved with nefarious activities, why was he let go?</i></blockquote>The obvious conclusion is that your premise is wrong and Vance was not involved in "nefarious activities" except as an innocent bystander.<br> <blockquote Sun, 24 Jun 2007 11:13:02 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#38 <i>Who thinks he was involved with a terrorist group? That doesn't seem likely.</i><p> Well, according to Vance, the army said he was being held for involvement with an <i>insurgent</i>  group.  Tomato/tomahto  But, given that Vance could be Sun, 24 Jun 2007 10:50:32 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#37 <blockquote><i>Would the army really have let him out if he was involved with the terrorist group?</i></blockquote>Who thinks he was involved with a terrorist group? That doesn't seem likely. Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:36:44 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#36 Would the army really have let him out if he was involved with the terrorist group? We have seen other cases where people have been such tenuous evidence. Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:25:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#35 <blockquote><i>It was a very easy story to check out...</i></blockquote>Why do you assume he is telling the truth? Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:10:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#34 <i>It was a very shallow article, so the investigation should take ten minutes or less, I would think.</i><p> It was a very easy story to check out, so checking his story out shouldn't take more than 10 hours I would think. I mean, if they can fly random d Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:16:27 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#33 <blockquote><i>Allegations of a FBI informant locked up for 93 days in dungeon like conditions simply for helping out the coalition</i></blockquote>It seems pretty straightforward: the guy was working for a foreign firm that seems to have been engaged in < Fri, 22 Jun 2007 17:08:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#32 Allegations of a FBI informant locked up for 93 days in dungeon like conditions simply for helping out the coalition. Pretty much everything in the article. Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:53:12 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#31 <blockquote><i>I hope whichever committee with jurisdiction in cases like these would investigate these shenanigans...</i></blockquote>What "shenanigans"? Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:50:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#30 <i>    ...accountability...<p> The Army is not accountable to MSNBC in any way. </i><p> You are correct, but I would hope they would be accountable in some way to the American people, in general, or at least to an appropriate congressional oversi Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:21:25 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#29 Dude...you and me...we're like tight?! Wed, 20 Jun 2007 23:01:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#28 <blockquote><i>I can see now that you've been right all along</i></blockquote>I knew the scales would fall from thine eyes.<br> <br><blockquote><i>I hope his case gets laughed out of court</i></blockquote>Me too. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 21:49:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#27 You got me there Z.  I can see now that you've been right all along.  My new take?  The dumb fuck got what he deserved and he's lucky he was only locked up for 3 months.  I hope his case gets laughed out of court. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:56:43 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#26 <blockquote><i>stupid little things like transparency...</i></blockquote>The Army is, by design, not a transparent organization. There are good reasons for that, mostly lumped under the broad rubric of <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/librar Wed, 20 Jun 2007 18:05:45 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#25 <i>Why should they give you the whole story? Or MSNBC for that matter?</i><p> No reason...stupid little things like transparency, accountability, democracy, not having to live in fear of your own fucking military.  Nothing important. Wed, 20 Jun 2007 12:30:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#24 <blockquote><i>...how about his well-being?</i></blockquote>The MSNBC story indicates that Vance thought his well-being was in jeopardy from his employer, not from the US Army.<br> <br><blockquote><i>Well, thank goodness we're getting the whole story from Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:01:03 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#23 The FBI also undertook an investigation in Yemen after the USS Cole was attacked there.  They went as far as operating a sort of wiretap: they installed a bugged payphone outside the suspected conspirators' hideout.  The New Yorker ran an <a href Tue, 19 Jun 2007 21:10:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#22 <i>in the media that the US government looked at what they had against the guy versus the bad press of torturing our own citizens and let him walk.</i><p> I dunno...the government certainly had no problem with torturing another <a href="http://news.bbc.co. Tue, 19 Jun 2007 20:08:20 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#21 <i>His chief complaint seems to be that he wasn't treated nicely once he was arrested.</i><p> I'm not so concerned with how nicely we were treating him as much as the fact that he had no avenue to pursue his claims of his innocence once he was imprisoned. Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:59:55 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#20 <i>His life was in danger from his own country?! That's absurd. No one has alleged that, not even Vance. </i><p> Ok...how about his well-being?  <p> <i>I'm reasonably sure that we're not getting the whole story from him.</i><p> Well, thank goodness we Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:57:16 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#19 <i> His life was in danger from his own country?! That's absurd. No one has alleged that, not even Vance. </i><p> Ehh, I dunno about that. If he was refused medical treatment and that caused an infection I'd consider that life threatening. <p> Genuine Curi Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:28:16 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#18 If we're going to say we support the Iraqi people and support the rebuilding of their country, then you can't really qualify someone who takes a job with an Iraqi company in that manner. If he really did take a job with what appeared to be a legit Iraqi bu Tue, 19 Jun 2007 19:10:25 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#17     It may be a stretch, but the FBI also spent years investigating the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers_Bombing">Khobar Towers</a> bombing, and near as I can tell that took place in foreign territory*, with criminals that didn Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:43:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#16 <blockquote><i>Can you prove that Vance knew that Shield Group Security was a gun smuggling company?</i></blockquote>Nope, I can't prove that. So what?<br> <br><blockquote><i>At worst, Vance made a poor job choice (maybe Blackwater turned him down?)</i></b Tue, 19 Jun 2007 18:00:10 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#15 My analogy is apt...apt, dammit!<p> Can you prove that Vance knew that Shield Group Security was a gun smuggling company?  According to the article SGS "provides protection for businesses and organizations."  Maybe you saw a want ad that I didn't Tue, 19 Jun 2007 17:02:39 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#14 <blockquote><i>Say I take a job with an investment firm, a secretary maybe.  In the course of my new job, I discover that my boss is ripping off little old ladies</i></blockquote>That's an unsatisfactory analogy for several reasons, not the least of w Tue, 19 Jun 2007 16:29:43 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#13 This guy was not the secretary at Enron.  He was a mercenary who traveled to Iraq to profit from the misery of a nation.  It sounds like he started with a negative entry in the karma ledger.  <p> Note to people: if you are a mercenary, some Tue, 19 Jun 2007 15:24:30 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#12 Is the FBI operating in Iraq? Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:57:11 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#11 Lou has discovered who was ultimately responsible for Enron -- the secretaries! Mystery solved! Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:56:03 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#10 <i>Here's the thing: this guy was, according to the information we have, engaged in an international criminal enterprise,</i><p> Soooo, let me see if I follow this.  Say I take a job with an investment firm, a secretary maybe.  In the course of m Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:38:00 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#9 <i>He could have chosen to not inform to the FBI on his personal vacation time, nor phoned in those intel reports.</i><p> He also could have chosen to inform the military, which might have closed down the operation in some time less than six months. Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:21:41 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#8 A possibility. The only thing is, he contacted the FBI when he was home on vacation, IIRC. Would there be a military representative back home in the states to speak to? I could see how it would be easier to walk into an FBI field office in the US on your o Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:19:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#7 <i>it would have been very easy for the army to communicate with Mr. Vance and to determine the facts of the case in as little time as a single day</i><p> That's probably what happened. This whole situation reads to me like a turf battle. Where Vance messe Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:00:06 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#6 <blockquote><i>I can't wait to hear the logic behind this...or were you just drunk when you wrote it?</i></blockquote>Could have been drunk, but I don't think so. Here's the thing: this guy was, according to the information we have, engaged in an internati Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:53:07 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#5 I forgot to add one last bit of moral outrage: You know what the saddest thing here is? The guy went out of his way, repeatedly, to do the right thing. He could have chosen to not inform to the FBI on his personal vacation time, nor phoned in those intel r Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:15:54 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#4 "Yes, please do go on" -- cupping my chin in both hands. Tue, 19 Jun 2007 09:58:34 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#3 I agree. Shit happens. If you travel to 3rd world countries you have to be prepared for things to go south and crazy weird shit like this to happen. I could expect a reasonable amount of time (a few days at most) for the army to check his story out. But 97 Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:58:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#2 <i>Oh, boo fucking hoo.  - zyxwvutsr </i><p> Ok, I can't wait to hear the logic behind this...or were you just drunk when you wrote it? Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:55:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2007/6/18/9057/92976#1 Misunderstandings do happen, particularly in a chaotic environment such as Iraq where deceit is a primary weapon of the insurgency, however, it would have been very easy for the army to communicate with Mr. Vance and to determine the facts of the case in a Tue, 19 Jun 2007 08:41:15 EST string http://www.treesandthings.com/search/