JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:22:17 EST

do you think the eugenics movement could be described as "the best they saw fit,"

The eugenicists saw it that way. You have the right to disagree.

using people as medical guinea pigs is as best as we see fit today?

Well,

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:10:17 EST

I have no idea how you can be unaware of the pro-abortion absolutists who see the slightest regulation of abortion as the first step down the slippery slope of outlawing it everywhere.

No regulation of abortion? Does that mean these "absolu

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:38:16 EST

What does the eugenics have to do with science?

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 19:06:03 EST

That's no reason not to act as best we see fit

So, do you think the eugenics movement could be described as "the best they saw fit," even using the standards of the time? Do you think using people as medical guinea pigs is as best as we see fit t

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:54:36 EST

I have no idea how you can be unaware of the pro-abortion absolutists who see the slightest regulation of abortion as the first step down the slippery slope of outlawing it everywhere. It's true many of them pretend this isn't the case, usually by claiming

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:05:16 EST

it is the state legislatures, not their courts, that have that authority

Florida state law specifically stated that the candidate with the most votes is the winner of an election. That implies that votes must be counted, and that is what th

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:53:55 EST

[Scalia] concluded that Americans should disabuse themselves of the notion that "everything you care about personally is in the Constitution."

The irony is rich and pungent.

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:46:39 EST

pro-abortionists that reject all limitations on the excercise of abortion

And then there are the trolls who reject all limitations on the creation of straw men.

It's mighty easy to demolish these mythical pro-abortionists who want to make ever

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:40:12 EST

Plenty of past "scientific" undertakings -- the eugenics movement, Skinner boxes, using people as unwitting or unwilling test subjects, and so on -- ended up dehumanizing people instead of exalting them.

Oooh, bad science! Religion would ne

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

Fri, 1 Feb 2008 09:16:38 EST

All of this is somewhat of a digression from the official topic of this discussion. I don't have a specific quote for you from Ayn Rand, because it has been too long since I last read her work, and I don't feel like re-reading it in search of relevan

Shotgun Stockton: Re: the criterion for goodness

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:42:48 EST

And who is to say that that is an absolute right? That is what I was getting at, and what you have apparently missed. Rights are invalid, or do not exist, or whatever, unless they are rationally valid. Do absolute claims to property rights, as conservative

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:17:19 EST

"I have never suggested that any of the things you mentioned can be justified under a strict constructionist view of the law. I rather strongly doubt that you can demonstrate that Scalia believes those things, either."

Saying it doesn't make it so. In e

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:33:26 EST

"Other people" like me say same thing about "liberal activist judges". They represent flip side of conservative activist judges. What they have in common has always been that their political beliefs dominate their judicial beliefs, and they

zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:06:00 EST

You commit the logical fallacy of assuming the truth of your beliefs in making your statement, while you statement itself is an ad hominem
Let me repeat your own words back to you:
you can spend your money howe
novy: Re: the right tool for the right job Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:03:53 EST "Other people" like me say same thing about "liberal activist judges". They represent flip side of conservative activist judges. What they have in common has always been that their political beliefs dominate their judicial beliefs, and they search f Shotgun Stockton: Re: the criterion for goodness Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:06:33 EST Who's doing the affront to human dignity, here? You've seen what, my few posts here and maybe a few on Plastic? Yet because of what political beliefs you infer me to have, you assume I am a sophist. You are, in effect, saying that "Because you disag zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:32:14 EST There's no 'state right' to 'overturn' a federal law, except when that state enacts a law concerning abortion that runs counter to federal law? What federal law are you talking about? It sure looks as thoug zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:13:02 EST Ayn Rand seems to argue that when you altruistically help other people you are conditioning them to depend upon the help of others rather than to develop their own capacity for self-reliance, thereby making them worse as people rather than h zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:05:46 EST How strange, the thought that other people may legitimately pass opinions on your life Has someone here objected to that idea? Yeah, you can spend your money however you want, but be expected to justify it o zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:57:50 EST It's certainly inconvenient for those who hold that abortion is a violation of the right to life while capital punishment is notYou mentioned Justice Scalia and, I think, insinuated that he is a hypocrite. Yet his legal opin PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:55:40 EST There's no 'state right' to 'overturn' a federal law, except when that state enacts a law concerning abortion that runs counter to federal law? It sure looks as though there is an inconsistency here. Federal law classifies cannabis as an il zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:52:50 EST "Principles" never lead him to decide against his "movement conservative" political beliefsOther people say precisely the same thing about "liberal activist judges." I, on the other hand, try to keep an open mind about these

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:22:11 EST
Not according to doctors who perform them.

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:11:20 EST
It's certainly inconvenient for those who hold that abortion is a violation of the right to life while capital punishment is not. That was the point of the statement.

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:09:18 EST
There is, of course, the medical fact that these "partial-birth" abortions are or were, extremely rare, and done only in emergency situations. The whole issue was a constitution challenge.

skeptic: Re: salvation

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:52:29 EST
While in theory (and depending upon which particular religion you believe in) you can save your soul through religious rituals such as the Catholic sacraments, many religions (including Catholicism) do emphasize the importance of living a good life as well

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:42:56 EST
Here I would take somewhat of a compromise position. There is something to be said for having a government which can harness the power and resources of an entire nation through mandatory taxation rather than voluntary donation, in order to accomplish

Shotgun Stockton: Re: the criterion for goodness

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:16:17 EST
How strange, the thought that other people may legitimately pass opinions on your life.
You know that the Enlightenment, most notably in Kant, is based on the thought that morality was to be discovered in rationality? This means that the relative moral

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:37:27 EST
Earl Warren found all of his rationales for his decisions in US Constitution as well. People like Scalia pretended they were different from Earl Warren, but they weren't. "Principles" never lead him to decide against his "movement conservative" political b

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:08:42 EST

In disputed elections like 2000 election, Congress should have determined outcome, not Supreme Court
The Supreme Court didn't determine the outcome of the election, it merely asserted that 1) the recount process undertaken un

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:06:14 EST
His view was then and always has been consistent with outcome he wants. He has become Bush-era version of Earl Warren. He makes things up as he goes along, always making sure that he toes "movement conservative" line at all times.

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 22:02:43 EST
Whatever his justification in Gore v. Bush, it was so weak that Court no longer accords it any value as precedent for any future case. In disputed elections like 2000 election, Congress should have determined outcome, not Supreme Court. On more limited iss

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:05:10 EST

As an ultra-extremist right wing jurist he had never in the history of his jurisprudence argued for equal protection. In fact, he had always argued against it
That is not correct. Scalia certainly has a fairly narrow view of

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:46:43 EST
In what way was it inconsistent with a plain reading of the law?
It wasn't inconsistent with a plain reading of the law. In fact, it was his first plain reading of the law. As an ultra-extremist right wing jurist he had never in the history of

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:17:07 EST

Scalia could justify absolutely anything, as he proved when he chose to elect George W. Bush 43rd president of US
Really? What do you think his justification was in that case? In what way was it inconsistent with a plain read

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:32:22 EST
"Justice Scalia's positions on abortion and capital punishment are also internally consistent because those opinions are bases on the US Constitution, not on church law." What nonsense. Any intelligent person can come up with rationalisations for their bel

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:22:18 EST
Yes, they oppose in vitro fertilisation in general. But what do they advocate should be done with embryos presently at fertility clinics?

thefadd: Re: salvation

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:11:50 EST
However, if you do believe in a soul, then that supersedes any need for saving worldly goods, including, well, the world.

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:24:23 EST
But what do they say about embryos at fertility clinics, waiting to be disposed of? Nothing,
Even a quick Google for a Wiki link reveals that as false.

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:23:48 EST
Buddhism believes in "universal mind", consciousness and life force that permeates universe, same god that "New Thought" churches believe in. Try again. Maybe you could claim Marxism as godless religion. At least it has hundreds of millions of believers in

zyxwvutsr: Re: How is this possible?

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:08:40 EST
You seem to be ignoring the oldest science: zymurgy. (Then again, wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who wrote something about proof that God loves us?)

zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:59:53 EST

It brings joy to altruists as well as to those who benefit from altruism (Ayn Rand notwithstanding)
There is a widespread misunderstanding that Ayn Rand was against altruism, but nothing could be further from the truth. Liber

Lou: How is this possible?

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:57:39 EST
How can science lure us away from god? Sure, science gives us sparkely toys and medical procedures...but how could even the coolest console system or mechanical hearts take our eyes off the real prize: Eternity in paradise?
Hell, there's even one

zyxwvutsr: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:52:35 EST

Marxism isn't a scientific method
I disagree that all cultural anthropologists apply Marxist ideology to their work. Some certainly have, but because they are doing so in the framework of science their work is easy to refute.

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:44:25 EST

...you are not mentioning the "inconvenient truth" of the Catholic position on respect for human life
I didn't see a reason to mention it since it is in no way "inconvenient" for the Catholic Church. Their pro-life position i

skeptic: Re: salvation

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:29:52 EST
I think that most of the readers of treesandthings would favor the continued existence of the human species and of human civilization as we know it, and those are definitely endangered by current environmental problems which feed into and exacerbate other

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:25:08 EST
When I talk about moral actions making life better, it is a larger context of making life better for everyone. I am not advocating selfishness, which may make life better for the selfish individual while making it worse for everyone else.
I believ

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:02:59 EST
"Creed" with no god
Yep -- just like Buddhism.

gerrymander: Re: salvation

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:52:50 EST
there is very good reason to think that it needs to be saved from further environmental degradation
That quote right there? That's where you stepped out of science and dipped into faith. "The Earth" does not need to be "saved." It has endured mor

Steve Urkel: Re: the criterion for goodness

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:49:05 EST
I'm not interested in engaging in this debate (again), but there've been lots of things worse than the Inquisition.
"We understand what makes for good lives. True morality simply directs us to act in a way that makes our lives better"
There's consid

Steve Urkel: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:35:50 EST
Marxism isn't a scientific method.

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 13:19:32 EST
That is correct, but you are not mentioning the "inconvenient truth" of the Catholic position on respect for human life. That position is also foursquare against capital punishment in any case, a point that is often overlooked, no doubt because many

Shy Elf: Re: You're Onto Something Novy.

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:11:07 EST
Aren't you happy they're a national leader in building natural gas plants? Let's do that nationally to fight global warming.

skeptic: the criterion for goodness

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:45:48 EST
I can agree that science does not become the criterion for goodness, but it does not follow that religion has done a good job in presenting such criteria. There have been a vast and horrendous series of atrocities throughout human history and extendi

skeptic: Galileo

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:35:41 EST
It might be argued that although Galileo was found guilty in his original trial, he has subsequently been absolved by the court of public opinion. But beyond that it is worth noting in this discussion that sometime in the 1980's (I forget exactly whe

skeptic: salvation

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:27:39 EST
The desire to save the Earth is not really similar to the desire to save your soul. There is no doubt that the Earth is real, and there is very good reason to think that it needs to be saved from further environmental degradation (although we can cer

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:36:56 EST
"Cult" sounds good, "cabal" sounds all right, "hopeless political movement" would be descriptive but probably too long, "Luddites" might work. We need "the right tool for the right job".

zyxwvutsr: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:27:58 EST

If he was referring to cultural anthropology...
Considering the history of the Catholic Church, and the ways it has adapted to local customs, I'm guess

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:55:53 EST

"Creed" with no god and few million "followers"...
Would you prefer the term "cult"?

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:37:45 EST
"Creed" with no god and few million "followers" = creed with billions of followers and serious political pull around world? Another painful example of insistent disingenuity.

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:40:02 EST
You oppose environmentalism. You laugh at "don't drink Fair Trade coffee, and save the Earth". Yet here you defend Pope and Catholicism by comparing them to radical environmentalists. Huh?
I also generally champion Republican candidates and scorn

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:31:17 EST
You oppose environmentalism. You laugh at "don't drink Fair Trade coffee, and save the Earth". Yet here you defend Pope and Catholicism by comparing them to radical environmentalists. Huh?
Very few people who otherwise embrace environmental aware

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:24:48 EST
Yes, Pope acknowledges some benefits of science, he just doesn't want too many benefits because then science would seduce people away from religion.
Again, I draw the parallel between the Pope's speech and environmentalism. People benefit from th

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:24:18 EST
I understand that Catholic Church believes embryos have same rights as those who have already been born. But what do they say about embryos at fertility clinics, waiting to be disposed of? Nothing, except that they shouldn't be used for anything pro

Shotgun Stockton: Spirituality Through Science

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:59:08 EST
"What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of "humility." This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."
"It seems to

Steve Urkel: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:38:17 EST
If he was referring to cultural anthropology then he was being overly generous.

thefadd: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:10:39 EST
very deft swipe at anthropology. almost possible to overlook that.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:51:40 EST

We should have an intelligent debate of the arguments Benedict brings up
Sure, let's begin with him mentioning "anthropological research, philosophy and theology"* in the same breath, as if anthropology was somehow on the sam

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:18:10 EST

I was just trying to calibrate zyxwvutsr's comfort level with the church's position
Other than for weddings and funerals, I haven't been to mass in twenty years.

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:15:10 EST
I never said anything was "wrong," I was just trying to calibrate zyxwvutsr's comfort level with the church's position ;-)

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:07:31 EST

...it's ok for them to...hold views with no reasonable scientific basis
I never said anything was "ok," I was merely pointing out that novy's comment was not an accurate description of the church's position.

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:05:15 EST
Why is it only wrong for the Catholic Church to hold views with no reasonable scientific basis? You hold views at odds with medical science. Another example is pro-abortionists that reject all limitations on the excercise of abortion, despite the scientifi

Steve Urkel: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:57:46 EST
"science does not become the criterion for goodness"
This strikes me as entirely reasonable. Science, for example, can describe for us the evolved differences between races. That does not mean science has demonstrated some races are of less worth than o

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:46:48 EST
So, because they hold views with no reasonable scientific basis, it's ok for them to...hold views with no reasonable scientific basis.

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:44:53 EST

So embryos sitting at fertility clinics may be disposed of, but they may not be used for experiments that might expand human life expectancy or otherwise improve human health
That shows a deep misunderstanding of the church's

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:25:28 EST
Full speech also reiterates his opposition to stem cell research as immoral. So embryos sitting at fertility clinics may be disposed of, but they may not be used for experiments that might expand human life expectancy or otherwise improve human health. And

profwhat: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:59:42 EST
Fundamentalists want to retry Galileo? Why? Didn't their side win the first trial?

gerrymander: the right tool for the right job

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:39:28 EST
For those inclined, here's a Google tran

MayorBob: You're Onto Something Novy.

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:33:08 EST
"I think that makes things clear: there have never been galaxies, and electric power comes from Satan!"
I don't know about that galaxy thing but, judging from the rate increase my power provider pushed through, you're spot on about Delmarva Power

novy: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:10:02 EST
Now, now. If he continues to echo them on almost every issue of substance, how long will they continue playing that game?
US fundamentalists want to refight Crusades in southwest Asia, want to retry Galileo, want to argue about whether Bible really says

tomc: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:41:14 EST
Will Benedict reach out to anti-science elements in American fundamentalism that oppose stem cell research as he does, reject evolution, and claim our universe was created 6,000 years ago?
Unfortunately for the Pope, the anti-science elements in

Science Seducing Us Away From God (Trees And Things)

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

delete me: Re: the criterion for goodness

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

JimmyHavok: Re: the criterion for goodness

JimmyHavok: Re: the criterion for goodness

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

JimmyHavok: Re: the right tool for the right job

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

Shotgun Stockton: Re: the criterion for goodness

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Shotgun Stockton: Re: the criterion for goodness

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness

zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

skeptic: Re: salvation

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

Shotgun Stockton: Re: the criterion for goodness

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

thefadd: Re: salvation

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: How is this possible?

zyxwvutsr: Re: the criterion for goodness

Lou: How is this possible?

zyxwvutsr: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

skeptic: Re: salvation

skeptic: Re: the criterion for goodness

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

gerrymander: Re: salvation

Steve Urkel: Re: the criterion for goodness

Steve Urkel: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

PenitenziAgite: Re: the right tool for the right job

Shy Elf: Re: You're Onto Something Novy.

skeptic: the criterion for goodness

skeptic: Galileo

skeptic: salvation

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

gerrymander: Re: the right tool for the right job

novy: Re: the right tool for the right job

Shotgun Stockton: Spirituality Through Science

Steve Urkel: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

thefadd: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

zyxwvutsr: Re: Science Seducing Us Away From God

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

thefadd: Re: the right tool for the right job

zyxwvutsr: Re: the right tool for the right job

Steve Urkel: Re: the right tool for the right job