To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate (Trees And Things)

thefadd: Re: free rider

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:54:53 EST

The mountain is high, the valley is low and you're confused 'bout which way to go... come on and take a free ride ooh, ooh.

JimmyHavok: free rider

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:28:46 EST

If everyone thought like you, you couldn't ride on their backs.

ms sue: Re: Hepatitis B

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:12:39 EST

Q.E.D.

thefadd: Hepatitis B

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:59:51 EST

Hepatitis B, now there's a dangerous disease. We should definitely vaccinate all our babies against

thefadd: Re: you asked...

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 18:01:48 EST

However, what he is asserting here is a right to enjoy the health benefits from living in a well-vaccinated population without contributing to its maintenance himself.

That's an end-run around his argument given that he's not asserting that at

Shy Elf: Re: you asked...

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 17:48:30 EST

I agree with most of what joshv has said here. In a well-vaccinated population, the side effects of most vaccines outweigh any benefit to you personally. However, what he is asserting here is a right to enjoy the health benefits from living in

joshv: Re: you asked...

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:59:01 EST

Let's see, what did I say? "So should we abandon all theories of viral causation? No, out of necessity we accept a lower standard of evidence than we would like. We are never going to be able to establish a 100% correlation between any di

1fastdog: you asked...

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 11:29:33 EST

Please, point out my failures of logic and rationality rather than resorting to emotional appeals.

Every argument you've made in this thread boils down to "nothing is proven to 100% ironclad accuracy, so I'm not gonna believe anything that inter

joshv: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:11:27 EST

Please, point out my failures of logic and rationality rather than resorting to emotional appeals. My failure to accept an epidemiological association between vaccination rates and falling disease prevalence as absolute and unequivocal proof of vacci

port1080: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:21:44 EST

I give up, you are impervious to rationality and logic on this subject. I simply hope no one you love ever comes down with a vaccine preventable disease... that's a terrible way to have your mind changed.

joshv: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:03:45 EST

I am saying that an epidemiological association does not prove a vaccine's effectiveness. You can argue all you want, but it's just basic science. The vaccine may or may not be effective, but a correlation between vaccination rates and decrease

port1080: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:39:47 EST

So there are clearly other forces at work that decrease the virulence and prevalence of communicable diseases. An epidemiological associating between wide spread vaccination and a decrease in that disease does not control for these other factors, nor d

thefadd: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:17:58 EST
I don't put evolution in my body. Evolution isn't something that while it seems to have done a great deal of good in the past is now controlled by corporate governance that in the case of the 90's psychotropic drug scare cares much more about feeding its o

ms sue: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:54:56 EST
What percentage of parents consciously weight the risk and benefit of vaccination?
Hard to say, but I would bet that the percentage has increased quite a bit in recent years. And I would bet that while some question the advisability based on soun

joshv: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 12:36:21 EST
Umm, yes. Smallpox has been completely eliminated "from the wild". People simply don't get it anymore, even people in 3rd world countries. The vaccine program for it was simply that effective and that well implemented. We're almost as close to getting r

joshv: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:31:32 EST
The Amish make an interesting case study - in the US they've had a life expectancy of about 72 years - for the last 300 years. I'd say that the Amish have had an extremely stable lifestyle during that period of time, and throughout have had access to

joshv: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:18:44 EST
Your link to the article on mumps outbreaks would be a bit more convincing were it not that the outbreaks are occurring in well vaccinated populations. It would be even more convincing if infected children weren't more likely to die in a car accident

joshv: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:39:15 EST
What percentage of parents consciously weight the risk and benefit of vaccination? I contend that the vast majority of parents don't even give it a second thought, and just follow their doctor's advice. Do you disagree? Such action on th

shane: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:17:02 EST
Scientists make mistakes, just like everyone else. More than once scientists have said something was safe and it wasn't. It's perfectly OK to accept the scientific method while realizing that sometimes the unknown danger just wasn't tested for.

port1080: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:45:10 EST
Just to play devil's advocate...are there studies that show it's the vaccine and not the other factors of modern society that have driven down incidence of these illnesses?
Umm, yes. Smallpox has been completely eliminated "from the wild". P

thefadd: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:43:03 EST
Just to play devil's advocate...are there studies that show it's the vaccine and not the other factors of modern society that have driven down incidence of these illnesses? Where's the control group that has clean running water, access to modern nutrition,

shane: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:47:12 EST
If it is on a case by case basis, what about for diseases for tetanus? That's not a disease transmitted person to person and you supposedly live in a remote area where the chances for injury are elevated.
Yes I am considering tetanus shots soon.

pO157: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:48:44 EST
Have you actually been reading this thread?
Yes.
I readily admit that if everybody did this, the benefit of not vaccinating would decline. But as long as the vast majority of people unthinkingly vaccinate their children, not vaccin

ms sue: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:31:39 EST
But as long as the vast majority of people unthinkingly vaccinate their children, not vaccinating your children is a net benefit for your children.
Okay, this is your second dismissive label for those whose actions upon which you depend. We are &

joshv: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:49:33 EST
What if everybody thought like you? Why do you deserve a free ride? I could understand a religious exemption or a moral one, but coming straight out and saying "Screw everybody else. Why should I take the risk when I can reap all the benefits by not par

pO157: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:11:08 EST
I live in Chicago. Perhaps you are confusing me with shane?
Probably.
If vaccines work, then the current vaccination rate is more than sufficient to protect your unvaccinated child from communicable diseases. If they don't wo

joshv: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 05:04:10 EST
If it is on a case by case basis, what about for diseases for tetanus? That's not a disease transmitted person to person and you supposedly live in a remote area where the chances for injury are elevated.
I live in Chicago. Perhaps you are

pO157: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:33:52 EST
Crap. Should be "Vaccinations for tetanus."

pO157: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:33:02 EST
Based on the current vaccination rate, not vaccinating your children is a rational decision. It removes all risk of any vaccine side effects, and incurs very little risk of illness, because most everyone else is vaccinated. I have already r

ms sue: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:14:24 EST
Based on the current vaccination rate, not vaccinating your children is a rational decision. It removes all risk of any vaccine side effects, and incurs very little risk of illness, because most everyone else is vaccinated. I have already re

joshv: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:45:16 EST
If you convince more and more people to be "rational," then, as you rather euphemistically say, "these benefits of not vaccinating would decline."
Based on the current vaccination rate, not vaccinating your children is a rational decision.

ms sue: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:27:33 EST
The rational decision for a parent is not to vaccinate.
In your mind, though, this rationality is based on the fact that people whom you deem irrational sheep do the footwork to protect your children. If you convince more and more people to be "r

pO157: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:53:04 EST
For the vaccine in discussion, Polio, it states "The vaccine used today has never been known to cause any serious problems, and most people don't have any problems at all with it." Many are similar. If the vaccines are so harmful, how come they are still i

shane: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:33:11 EST
I will get my kids vaccinated, one day, when it becomes necessary. Before we travel to far off countries or swim in public swimming pools they will be vaccinated. If there is an outbreak of any major disease that vaccinations can help with, they will

joshv: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:28:29 EST
There are no risk free vaccines. Check here for a list of vaccine side effects: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm from the CDC. I will gr

Lou: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:12:08 EST
Ohhh, ok..I get it.
ride camels with firearms and look all bad ass, arab style.
Actually...with those bright blue helmets and being so high off the ground, they kinda look like targets.

pO157: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 15:01:49 EST
A blue helmet is a common uniform item worn by United Nations peace keepers. Apparently some of them get to ride camels with firearms and look all bad a

Lou: Re: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:51:34 EST
Blue helmet?

pO157: Lou, I'll buy you a blue helmet.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:35:13 EST
Agreed.
However, for the record, I repeat my agreement with Port1080's initial statement that people who object to a medical treatment which has been saving lives and alleviating an untold amount of human suffering for over 56 years should rethink thei

Lou: Two...two responses in one

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:26:02 EST
How about we...
A. Don't call folks fucking idiots for choosing something that goes against the conventional wisdom.
B. Don't try to scare the shit out of folks into eschewing a treatment that could potentially save their lives.

pO157: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:21:46 EST
Scaring people into believing lifesaving treatments are the cause of horrible ailments on "evidence" that is tenuous at best doesn't do much for generating positive discussion or change.

shane: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:51:58 EST
I'm happy to say that vaccinations in BC are not mandatory, and that I and a lot of people who live around here are glad about that.
Calling people 'fucking idiot' doesn't do much for generating positive discussion or change.

pO157: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:16:02 EST
Let me say once again, anyone that opposes mandatory vaccines for these diseases is a fucking idiot.
I agree. Anybody that will not get their kid vaccinated for these diseases is a fucking idiot. However, I believe people still should have the

Shy Elf: Grocery Store Bonus Cards

Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:15:00 EST
I don't have a grocery store bonus card. Food prices here are lower than I've seen anywhere else in the country, and none of the cheaper stores require a bonus card. Some of them track your purchases by credit card / debit card account number w

ms sue: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:21:00 EST
The flu, especially the strains we've been seeing lately, are particularly dangerous, especially to young kids, older people, and those with certain existing medical conditions. In my area, a child died this week from it.
I had the Hong Kong flu and wo

ms sue: Re: plastic

Sat, 16 Feb 2008 11:42:36 EST
And here I thought you'd go for the obvious.

joshv: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Sat, 16 Feb 2008 08:18:30 EST
Or perhaps the parents should just not get flu shots for their children. I've yet to see a shred of scientific evidence that flu shots will make your child any more likely to survive childhood, so at best you are saving them from a week of misery, an

tomc: Re: How about another poll option?

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:46:35 EST
I hear you. I wasn't thinking about this in particular.

shane: plastic

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:25:01 EST
I take that back - some plastic is toxic

pO157: Re: How about another poll option?

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:07:11 EST
Seriously, though, it's unfortunate but obvious why women carry the burden for so much: many men still regard women as something less than a man, and many women still act that way.
I don't really think sexism has anything to do with this. If yo

tomc: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:04:25 EST
there might be egg allergies involved as well, used in many vaccines.
All flu vaccines are incubated in eggs. People with egg allergies are not supposed to get flu shots.

pO157: Immunology 101

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:02:25 EST
If you don't use an adjuvant the vaccine does not work as well. Adjuvants artificially stimulate or mimic inflammation which is critically important for the body to respond and the va

tomc: Re: How about another poll option?

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 22:00:15 EST
Why vaccinate only the females? If the men can be carriers, why not vaccinate them?
Because women are more accustomed to getting poked?
Seriously, though, it's unfortunate but obvious why women carry the burden for so much: many men still reg

pO157: Re: How to get everybody vaccinated.

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:52:12 EST
It's funny, but when I lived in Idaho they actually had a box on the form that said something along the lines of "I wish not to have my personal data stored in the grocery store computers for privacy reasons."
I guess Customer Service had too many heate

joshv: Re: Vaccine Ingrediants

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:43:21 EST
The problem is that many of the vaccines these days aren't for fatal illnesses. Flu? Chickenpox? HPV? Sure they can kill you, but so can the common cold.

shane: Re: Vaccine Ingrediants

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:40:14 EST
Plastic isn't toxic. All the vaccine ingredients are. Make the vaccines without toxic ingredients and most of he objections will probably go away. I bet technically it could be done - maybe the shelf life of the vaccines wouldn't be as lo

PenitenziAgite: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:07:17 EST
Brother and sister born in '77 and '79, and so...
For years, I used a contact lens solution that had thimerosal in it, and I'm pretty sure I don't have heavy metal poisoning.

port1080: Re: Vaccine Ingrediants

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:10:40 EST
The question I have to ask is would I inject these things into my kids if it wasn't in a vaccine?
Well, no, but that's the point, isn't it? Would you let someone cut your chest open and put pieces of plastic in you if you weren't about to die

postillion: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 20:00:19 EST
I am not sure what year you were born, but the number of vaccines recommended for children rose after 1976.
If there is a link between mercury and autism, is it so much the mercury used as a preservative in a few vaccines, or the overall rise in mercur

shane: Vaccine Ingrediants

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:58:06 EST
* adjuvants include aluminum gels or salts.
* Stabilizers include monosodium glutamate (MSG) and 2-phenoxyethanol.
* Antibiotics, (i.e. neomycin and streptomycin), formaldehyde and thimero

PenitenziAgite: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:35:24 EST
I had all those shots. All my friends had all those shots. My brother and sister and all their friends had all those shots.
Maybe all this autism is being caused by something else, because to hear some of these people going on about vaccines

ms sue: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 19:09:26 EST
It seems the thimerasol/autism link has been debunked.
Besides, as has been pointed out, it's been removed from the vaccines, although I think that it's still in the flu shot. Parents can, though, request thimerasol-free flu vaccines for their ch

shane: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:20:47 EST
illiterate? uhg - I guess that's what I get for posting while talking to real people at work.

shane: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:11:40 EST
The autisim/mmr link is something I did look into before vaccinating my son. I could not find any conclusive evidence that there was actually a link so set this concern aside when I did get him vaccinated. Mercury poisoning symptoms are very si

thefadd: Re: How to get everybody vaccinated.

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 17:07:08 EST
who doesn't use a bonus card anymore?
I don't...but Andy Warhol at (123) 456-7890 does.

MayorBob: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:57:54 EST
Er, skeeter, you might want to check out port's post above. It seems the thimerasol/autism link has been debunked. However, you're quite right about people having particular reactions to particular types of stuff they put in their bodies.

thefadd: Re: The thing that struck me about the HPV argumen

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:56:58 EST
The HPV question is an interesting one because it has so many sides to it. Like the above, I'm extremely skeptical of it and really think it's a bad idea medically to make it mandatory now. At the same time, it seems like some women's groups have really ta

port1080: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:54:13 EST
Should parents have the last say in this? I'd have to say yes.
That's the thing - this isn't something that can just be left to the parents. Vaccines are most effective when they're given universally (or at least, almost universally).

pO157: How to get everybody vaccinated.

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:53:47 EST
Make them free and then offer them to whoever shows up within a small window of time.
People love free stuff and waiting on line. Seriously.
A grocery store up here recently had a produce handler come down with Hep A. Since that is passed via the fe

MayorBob: The thing that struck me about the HPV argument.

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:52:30 EST
At least, as presented in thefadd's link, is that it's basically a variation of the argument you hear from fundamentalist shitheads about why sex education should be banned in the schools or why birth control should be outlawed. Essentially it's sayi

skeeter1: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:42:50 EST
"I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids! - General Jack D. Ripper"
Well, as much as I enj

port1080: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:41:20 EST
The "link" between mercury in vaccines and autism has been completely debunked:

Infants expel the mercury contained in a common vaccine

pO157: Re: How about another poll option?

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:40:57 EST
I'm not really sold on the whole cervical cancer vaccine either. I know it's probably beneficial overall, but I just feel like this is a case of the drug companies trying to screw me...
The HPV (cervical cancer vaccine) really makes me wo

gameCoder: How about another poll option?

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:32:30 EST
I'd like "Should be mandatory for particularly dangerous diseases"
Something like polio or smallpox? Definitely ought to be mandatory. Chickenpox? Not so much... I'm not really sold on the whole cervical cancer vaccine either. &

shane: Re: To Vaccinate Or Not To Vaccinate

Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:11:13 EST
We took our son in for vaccinations twice. Before doing so I did a bunch of research and couldn't really find anything reliable that said there is a link to problems. Before the third set I met a guy who does research for AIDS or Cancer or som