Academic Freedom... It's just been revoked. (Trees And Things)

pO157: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Thu, 28 Feb 2008 08:23:20 EST

But ultimately, I suppose that my reaction is more visceral rather than logical. There is an idealistic streak in me that thinks that crime should be better controlled, that it shouldn't have to come down to individuals having to defend ourselves

postillion: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:02:27 EST
I had to think about your reply and my initial reaction for awhile to sort through and understand why I veer towards being pro gun-control.
I've shot guns at a few ranges (not well) with guns borrowed from a friend who is a gun-collector. And ther

thefadd: Re: frame of reference is flawed.

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:51:12 EST
culture causes trauma. if there's a culture of competitiveness and a lack of compassion say in an office environment with someone like Milton from office space just because I watched it again last night, then that culture causes trauma which leads to Milto

profwhat: Re: frame of reference is flawed.

Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:33:46 EST
I guess I don't know when the trauma counts. But trauma is not the same as "culture."

thefadd: Re: frame of reference is flawed.

Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:14:55 EST
I don't accept that our "culture" is a major contributor to personality disorders. Childhood trauma and genetics play a much bigger role.
you accept childhood trauma but not adult trauma?

JimmyHavok: Re: Who's to blame?

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 22:20:32 EST
I'll give you the Cliffs Notes version: The student protesters were the bad guys and the National Guard were the good guys.
Everyone thinks he's the good guy and his victim is the bad guy. But shooting at unarmed people makes you, no matte

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:06:22 EST
You seem to be confused about the basic facts of the situation. I'll give you the Cliffs Notes version: The student protesters were the bad guys and the National Guard were the good guys. The good guys were sent in to enforce the law. If the bad guys had b

JimmyHavok: Re: Who's to blame?

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:44:17 EST
The students provoked the National Guard troops
Translation: "It's not my fault, she knows how I get."

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 09:42:02 EST

Not one student shot anyone, and yet you continue to blame them for the deaths
The students provoked the National Guard troops with wanton disregard for the possible consequences. Of course they shoulder some of the blame.

JimmyHavok: Re: Two different things

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 01:40:56 EST
I used to be very pro-carry, but then I lived in a state (Alaska) where open carry is legal. The only people I ever saw carrying guns (except when they were going out into the woods) were people I didn't think had the maturity or good sense to handle

pO157: Re: Two different things

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 00:26:37 EST
Yes, you're full of crap on it. I'm a gun owner, and I went through training to properly fill out and sign a check.
I apologize. Because I don't think my explanation was clear enough. Sure, in some states the requirements for gun ownershi

Lou: Re: Who's to blame?

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:52:57 EST
Would you trust me to throw rocks and bottles at the "pigs"?
Not only that, but I fully expect to see you on the barricades in front of the cigar salon once the liberals take power.
Fight the power, Z...Fight the power.

JimmyHavok: Re: Who's to blame?

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:26:17 EST
Not one student shot anyone, and yet you continue to blame them for the deaths. I wouldn't trust you with any sort of weapon, whether gun, bottle or rock. No doubt you would claim that anyone you hurt had it coming.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:51:24 EST

One of the main principles of anger management is taking responsibility for your own actions
I don't doubt that there were many students who took part in the protests and later felt guilt and remorse because of the kill

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 09:46:13 EST

...ordered in National Guard troops with no police training with only lethal weapons and little in the way of riot gear, instead of mobilizing police from across the state
The National Guard wasn't sent in to write summonses

JimmyHavok: Re: Two different things

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:25:01 EST
I would assume gun owners (somebody tell me if I am full of crap on this) would go through training in "Real Life" self-defense uses of their weapons to avoid freezing up.
Yes, you're full of crap on it. I'm a gun owner, and I went through

JimmyHavok: Re: Who's to blame?

Sat, 23 Feb 2008 00:19:43 EST
Why does all the blame get pinned on the National Guardsmen
Because they had the guns.
One of the main principles of anger management is taking responsibility for your own actions. The kind of people who get sent to anger management typ

Shy Elf: Re: Who's to blame?

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:30:17 EST
Actually, I do. After all, he's the one who ordered in National Guard troops with no police training with only lethal weapons and little in the way of riot gear, instead of mobilizing police from across the state.
After all, we can't be serious wi

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:10:11 EST

Isn't there enough blame for both?
Yeah, sure. Why not? In fact, why not blame it on the governor, too? He's the one who ordered the troops in. It's not the protester's fault that the governor was so serious about his job.

Shy Elf: Re: Who's to blame?

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:40:48 EST
Isn't there enough blame for both?

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:39:01 EST

If you approve of them deliberately shooting two students on the way to class far away from the protests...
That's a hell of an "if."
I do not approve of shooting students, but the Kent State shootings were clearly the res

Shy Elf: Re: Who's to blame?

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 17:13:16 EST
The National Guard is by and large trained to shoot things first and ask questions later. If we're going to plan to use them as the police force of last resort, they need to be trained in police tactics, which they aren't.
When Johnson sent in the

Shy Elf: Re: Who's to blame?

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:52:21 EST
If you approve of them deliberately shooting two students on the way to class far away from the protests, I assume you would approve of shooting the rest of the students at Kent State? After all, why should those two be special?

Lou: Kent State Death Match

Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:10:13 EST
The Malefactors vs The Campus Shooters

zyxwvutsr: Re: Who's to blame?

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:13:53 EST

I invite you to read the entire wikipedia entry. It goes on to say that officials tried to cover up what happened...
I read it. So what? Misbehavior on the part of the officials or National Guard in no way ameliorates t

Lou: Re: "Right here! Got Set! Point! Fire!"

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:10:34 EST
"Wait, are you talking about the National Guard or the campus rabble?"
I'm talking about Chrissy Hynde

zyxwvutsr: Re: "Right here! Got Set! Point! Fire!"

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:08:06 EST

...why use a nutcracker when a sledgehammer will do just as well
Wait, are you talking about the National Guard or the campus rabble?

thefadd: Right?

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 13:49:25 EST
Hey, look at it this way. If all those college kids had been packing, they could have defended themselves!

profwhat: Re: frame of reference is flawed.

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:57:30 EST
The point is not that guns dissuade psycopaths, but that guns will kill psycopaths. Or, better than that, subdue them so that they can be apprehended and prosecuted. That's what happened in the Appalachian School of Law incident: students, arme

MayorBob: Who's to blame?

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:10:04 EST
On the one hand, we have a bunch of college kids out protesting the American invasion of Cambodia. They got loud. They probably threw shit at the National Guard. &nb

pO157: Re: Two different things

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:57:34 EST
I've thought about that myself. I'm pretty cool under stress, but If I happened to be armed and on the site in the Virginia Tech incident, I wonder if I could have distinguished between the actual shooter and some other armed citizen attempting t

pO157: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:51:53 EST
I am not sure I agree with that. As a non-gun owner I have read that in one study, permit holders in Florida were found to be 500 times less likely to commit violent

JimmyHavok: Re: Two different things

Thu, 21 Feb 2008 01:33:56 EST
How many people would act with the coolness of Jeanne Assam and take down a classroom shooter? Or how many would be diving under desks, flipping out, blasting indiscriminately or shooting himself like this trained professional.
I've though

postillion: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:40:12 EST
If one assumes that anyone can become mentally unstable (as there's no test that can guarantee 100 percent that a person will never be mentally unstable in the future) and extends a concealed weapon permit to all citizens of good character, there is expone

Lou: "Right here! Get Set! Point! Fire!"

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 22:59:36 EST
This existence of this audio(scroll down) gives some credence that the shots were aimed...that and the FBI later found out that one of the campus shooters bragge

zyxwvutsr: Re: Thugs

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 21:14:29 EST

The campus shooters aimed at the people that were farthest away from them
I've never heard that before - unless by "aimed" you meant "happened to be pointing their rifles in the general direction."

Two of th

pO157: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:18:59 EST
Exactly. So there is nothing mystical or special about police officers that should make them the only people able to carry legally (within reason as mentioned above). Therefore, the right to choose to carry a concealed weapon should be extended to al

postillion: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:48:28 EST
And there's the lovely case of the police officer who told a 13 year old girl that he had bought her from her parents and then proceeded to prositute her.
No one's infallible.

Lou: Thugs

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 07:52:25 EST
Yeah...except for the part where...
-The whole thing was essentially over
-The campus shooters aimed at the people that were farthest away from them.
-Two of the people killed were walking between classes...one of them was an ROTC student.
N

pO157: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot

Wed, 20 Feb 2008 06:37:40 EST
But this assumes that the person who was mentally stable at the time of the psych exam will remain stable.
Then how come people have no problems with giving police officers firearms, even off duty, and after they retire Kent

Lou: Re: Two different things

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:07:05 EST
and if somebody is qualified and trusted to pack heat off campus, why not on campus?
Well, I really don't have a dog in this fight. Why? Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't carry a gun on me...because I am not 100% sure I could kill someb

pO157: Re: Two different things

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:05:15 EST
How am I going to get the guns to the school with Illinois' tough non-carry laws. If I carry these guns around outside of their cases on my way to kill people, I'll be breaking the law.
Exactly. I was saddened to see after the shenanigans at Vi

Lou: Two different things

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 17:55:22 EST
According to your link, Illinois has the toughest Right To Carry laws in the country. In fact, I would say that not being able to carry at all (If I read that NRA webpage correctly)) is pretty damn tough. However...the right to carry is

MayorBob: A real world alternative.

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:52:32 EST
Former grad students who decide to go off their meds. Personally, I'd prefer a college campus to be clean of all firearms. But, if I had my druthers, I'd rather that your average frat boy had a gun than your average person with mental health is

pO157: Re: four words

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:16:12 EST
Even if those same frat boys have military experience? Even if those same frat boys are more mature than some of the uneducated firearms owners out there?
I knew a ton of people in college who were not in a Greek program and were horribly immature, dea

JimmyHavok: four words

Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:00:50 EST
Frat boys with guns.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the fat

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:44:01 EST
By the way, the protest that Isserman was discussing in that article was the same one when Abbie Hoffman said they were going to use psychic energy to levitate the Pentagon.
Here's that an article describing the flower in the MP's gun barrel at

zyxwvutsr: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the fat

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:41:15 EST

Where did all those pictures of people putting flowers down the barrels of guns come from?
Was there more than one such picture? Were the guns held by MPs?

pO157: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the fat

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:23:46 EST
Every time a cop pulls somebody over and is declined permission to search the car without a warrant, or a person declines to answer unrelated questions during an interaction with the police, etc then a person is flexing their civil rights during an interac

zyxwvutsr: Re: Gun-control people shot themselves in the fat

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:54:28 EST

These are the same professors that likely advocate flexing civil rights at traffic stops by gun toting police or protested the Vietnam War in the face of armed MPs
Did that ever really happen?

pO157: Gun-control people shot themselves in the foot.

Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:18:46 EST
I'm not a lawyer or a gun owner, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I read somewhere after this horrific event that Illinois has some of the toughest firearms control laws in the coun