What does the 2nd Amendment really mean? (Trees And Things)

Shy Elf: Re: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 21:43:53 EST

Certainly the second and later version makes more sense grammatically. Aside from the wisdom of changing amendments after they are approved by congress and before they are approved by the states, the difference is subtle but significant. The un

thefadd: Re: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:38:20 EST

Does the first common make much difference in the meaning? The third comma is just silly because what linguistic sense could it possibly make to put a comma before "shall."

Shy Elf: Re: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:35:38 EST

We can't even agree on whether the text is that or

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

pO157: Re: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:03:28 EST

I dunno. I saw a sign the other day for a 6 part lecture series run by a new local anarchist group to discuss how to set up an organized "anarchist collective" in the city. I thought that was hilarious. Almost hilarious enough to make a diary entry mocking

MayorBob: Re: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:14:59 EST

That's the thing. Would a "well-regulated militia" decide to hold a membership meeting at the corner market? That seems to be the mark of a "not-so-well-regulated militia".

JimmyHavok: Re: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 14:30:16 EST

So what does Joe Citizen packing heat when he goes down to the corner market have to do with a "well regulated militia?"

Lou: Duh!

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 08:45:10 EST

What does the 2nd amendment really mean?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

C'mon people...it's friggen' crystal clear!

Lou: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Thu, 6 Mar 2008 06:48:31 EST

So, maybe rather than buying guns, your neighborhood should give low rentals to bohemians.

Yeah, but that still won't do anything about the drugs.

postillion: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 22:48:13 EST

the old northern and eastern cities that have trouble keeping people have got to re-examine their tax structure.

I think it depends on the city as well as the city's history and what they can do in terms of restructuring the city to entice reside

pO157: Old and Busted... New Hotness!

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 20:18:23 EST

I think this is a record for TnT since the remodel of the front page. First discussion with a hotness above 200. Go us!

Lou: Re: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gu

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 19:02:39 EST

Word!

JimmyHavok: Re: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gu

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 18:32:45 EST

that's a lesson for the thugs that can only be written in blood.

That sounds to me like thug talk.

skeeter1: Re: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gu

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 14:30:43 EST

"Don't walk over and start giving out lead enemas, call the police from a safe location."

Well, as much as I enjoy owning firearms, I have to agree with you there. The one thing I never leave the house without is my cellphone. If I se

thefadd: Re: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gu

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 13:34:15 EST

Yeah, if you see a drug deal, definitely don't cap their ass 'cause one of them is almost certainly a narc. You wanna reduce crime? Get the drugs out. You wanna get the drugs out? Get the CIA to stop growing poppies in Afghanistan and cocoa in Columbia.

thefadd: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 13:29:55 EST

I think you hit the nail on the head...the old northern and eastern cities that have trouble keeping people have got to re-examine their tax structure. Nobody wants the hassle of crap like a this pdf from California re: hunting regulations. Section 507 (a) (4) mentions blocking to pr

pO157: Re: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gu

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 08:57:57 EST

Sure, that is why a private citizen carries a weapon... for self-defense. See a drug deal? Don't walk over and start giving out lead enemas, call the police from a safe location. A drug dealer or mugger pulls a knife on you? Well, if your life is threatene

Lou: Re: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gu

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 07:43:13 EST

Letting residents have weapons to make them feel safe does not mean they should go out and kick ass Rambo style. That is not the point. The point is to convince stable, law abiding people to move into neighborhoods they may otherwise not.

Now see

pO157: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 07:16:18 EST

In reality, I think the best solution would be a mix of lower tax burdens, encouraging lower income educated types to move in (artists, teachers), more cops, and other incentives (ability to get a weapons permit if otherwise qualified). Passing out p

postillion: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Wed, 5 Mar 2008 00:01:09 EST

Quick question: Someday when I accumulate enough money to move to a less crime ridden area and I sell my house am I going to be accused of "white flight" and leaving my neighborhood "to the wolves?"

I would say that from the way you describe your

pO157: Gentrification derived from the barrel of a gun.

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 22:26:04 EST

I'm not sure newly armed law abiding citizens are going to stabilize a neighborhood unless there are significant numbers of them and the rules of engagement are extended beyond the curb. If there are only one or two such people in the 'hood

PenitenziAgite: Re: Capacity

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 22:10:44 EST
It's a state-by-state thing. I inherited a beautiful FN Auto-5 when my uncle died. Like all Browning Auto-5s, it has a 5-shell capacity, but the limit in CA is one chambered, two in the magazine. The plug in the magazine was after-market.

MayorBob: This calls for a lolcat moment.

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:18:30 EST
IM IN UR NEIGHBORHOOD, GENTRIFYIN' THA HOOD WIT COLD LED.

Lou: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:11:26 EST
I'm not sure newly armed law abiding citizens are going to stabilize a neighborhood unless there are significant numbers of them and the rules of engagement are extended beyond the curb. If there are only one or two such people in the 'hood, an

rEvolution inAction: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 17:11:19 EST
But how will a handgun protect you from tyranny?

pO157: Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:34:30 EST
More focus on paying attention to what's behind your target, where your friends are, and how to avoid shooting your buddy in the face.
But what if I want to be Vice President some day?

pO157: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 16:27:09 EST
There is no good solution. But if allowing a law abiding citizen to carry a weapon makes it easier for him to choose to live in a more risky neighborhood and thus help stabilize it, contribute more taxes to an impoverished area, then fine, I am all for it.

MC Nally: Re: ..from scotch

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 14:52:49 EST

When I first glanced over your comment, I thought you were suggesting we re-write the constitution from scotch.
Sounds like a keming

thefadd: initial reactions

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:54:41 EST
I've often thought, too, that we should have different gun regulations for town and country. I don't know how much good it would do, though. If you look at Philadelphia's gun problems, they've done a lot but the flow keeps coming from Virginia and south. I

Lou: Re: a non-libertarian view of gun rights by wetkar

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:49:44 EST
I thought you were suggesting we re-write the constitution from scotch.
You know me too well.

thefadd: Re: a non-libertarian view of gun rights by wetkar

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:48:25 EST
When I first glanced over your comment, I thought you were suggesting we re-write the constitution from scotch.

thefadd: Re: a non-libertarian view of gun rights by wetkar

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:45:51 EST
Wow...when I lived on the fringes of the "ghetto" (not the hardcore place where cop cars get shot at and keep driving ghetto just the part that's a little rundown and scares suburbanites ghetto), I called 911 because someone had broken into the crawl space

port1080: Re: Capacity

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:40:05 EST
Thanks for the links, I guess the guns I got were plugged due to the hunting regulation (they were purchased for hunting, so it makes sense).

thefadd: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:27:07 EST
I think reasonable people can agree that it is limited to personal firearms, and it can reasonably be assumed that this does not include RPGs, mortars, artillery pieces, surface-to-air missiles, etc.
In terms of the actual, real-world implemen

skeptic: the constitution

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:12:54 EST
I have participated in internet discussions for a number of years now, and I have noticed that certain topics come up over and over. I have seen something like twenty different debates on the War on Drugs, for example (a war that I, and most of the o

MayorBob: As I used to say in 'Nam.

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:08:32 EST
You'll get my M-79 grenade launcher away from me when you pry it from my cold, dead hand.

PenitenziAgite: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:56:24 EST
If you shoot a shotgun (assuming it is loaded with shot, and not a slug) at an attacker, there would have to be innocent bystanders behind the attacker, and if they were injured due to your self-defense actions, they have a remedy in the courts for that.

uncarved block: Capacity

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:15:19 EST
Is the limit for shotgun capacity for home defense or for hunting? The Wikipedia entry (I know, I know) mentioned that there were restrictions for hunting birds, but that it wa

nmiguy: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:47:52 EST
Well I think the idea has some promise to it, but it is still problematic. There are plenty of law abiding citizens who are law abiding because they don't carry. Your average "road rage" scenario is a middle finger and a curse word. But i

rEvolution inAction: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:34:15 EST
Who said anything about not harming bystanders? Shotguns are legal, and they are indiscriminate, so that really doesn't seem to be that big a deal

port1080: Re: Get A Shotgun

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:32:38 EST
There are some problems with shotguns, particularly full length barrel shotguns. They're somewhat awkward and can be difficult to handle in tight spaces like a house hallway (ditto rifles). Also, many states limit the number of cartridges you can have in

uncarved block: Get A Shotgun

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:10:19 EST
If home defense is all you really need, I don't see how you can go wrong. You don't have to be some real life Dirty Harry to use it, the damage to your possessions will be more than compensated by the lack of damage to your personage, and unl

Lou: Re: a non-libertarian view of gun rights by wetkar

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:57:46 EST
Great ideas to think about. Also, the idea about re-writing the constitution from scratch sounds like a good idea for a sub.

pO157: Re: a non-libertarian view of gun rights by wetkar

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:40:58 EST
If you set aside for just a second (hard I know) the innate right to self-defense, one should be willing to accept that the response time for civil authorities (who have guns) in a city will likely be a lot faster than the response time for the same au

pO157: Re: Wait, what?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:37:49 EST
Well, you could own it without operating it. Traditionally a large part of the value of such weapons has been deterrence.
Which is not to say that I think that private ownership of super-weapons is a good idea, just that I disagree with your r

pO157: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 06:34:41 EST
With a chemical weapon? I mean seriously, how would you deploy that without harming innocent bystanders or property?

wetkarma: a non-libertarian view of gun rights by wetkarma

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 04:39:33 EST
Before I get into the heart of my comment, I'd like to note that a core problem with gun rights/control issues in the USA is that the country is not a monoculture. A solution which might makes sense in the cities (reduce violent crime by taking away violen

rEvolution inAction: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Tue, 4 Mar 2008 01:40:13 EST
When you are threatened with deadly force you have the right to reply with such. At the very least this would be legal in Florida.

gerrymander: about that third link

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:30:04 EST
I guess there are occasions when "Canadian" isn't just a new slur, eh?

MC Nally: Re: Wait, what?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:56:43 EST

How could you own or operate a weapon of mass destruction without imposing on the rights of a fellow citizen?
Well, you could own it without operating it. Traditionally a large part of the value of such weapons has bee

port1080: Re: Do me a favor.

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 20:43:09 EST
Basically, it depends. In most states it's probably illegal, and it's certainly probably "against policy" at most colleges even if it's not actually illegal (i.e. campus security will escort you off campus but they can't actually take your weapon or charg

thefadd: Re: Wait, what?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:54:05 EST
Hey, I didn't write it.

pO157: Re: Wait, what?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 18:42:20 EST
What national guard unit controls and stockpiles chemical/biological or nuclear weapons? What military unit would use them on their own civilians, or on territory they control? Assuming the point of the 2A was to keep government in line, the objective coul

thefadd: Re: Wait, what?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:13:59 EST
Why not? The militia is of the citizenry. In order for the militia to defend its territory, it must have the proper weaponry. Without proper weaponry, it gives way to tyranny and cannot keep its government in line.

MC Nally: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 17:09:50 EST

You will forgive port1080, myself, and probably a bunch of other people on this forum for having little patience with the evil shenanigans propagated by people outside our neighborhoods.
Of course I will.
I'm substantially less f

skeeter1: Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:52:02 EST
Well, I'll put in my two cents worth.
"Hell...I might as well go ahead and get that gun. I have no real experience as a shooter...what you a first-time non-victim get for a shootin' iron? I have heard that a revolver is a good place to st

pO157: Wait, what?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:49:41 EST
How could you own or operate a weapon of mass destruction without imposing on the rights of a fellow citizen? Their destructive power is completely indiscriminate in who it hurts, innocent or attacker. They create fallout/pollution/contamination which foul

Lou: Not quite

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:46:25 EST
Maybe it's a community wide case of Stockholm Syndrome
It's probably more of a case of "I Don't Want My Head Blown Off Syndrome". But I understand your frustration.

pO157: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:37:09 EST
No pants, No problem.

pO157: Re: Do me a favor.

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:36:17 EST
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't most college campuses ban firearms on them by virtue of state law?

pO157: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:16:10 EST
I think your comment goes well beyond jaded. Are you supposing the other residents of these neighborhoods you imagine are all violent, barbaric, and incapable of civilized behavior? Or are you fine with the idea of the "otherwise peaceable

port1080: Re: Do me a favor.

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:30:27 EST
If you do go out and get that nice revolver, please take advantage of a basic gun safety course and log a few hours down at the shooting range.
No worries, I grew up around guns in Pennsylvania redneck land, so I grew up hunting and have a s

port1080: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:21:11 EST
Are you supposing the other residents of these neighborhoods you imagine are all violent, barbaric, and incapable of civilized behavior?
I'm of the opinion that in many cases citizens of said neighborhoods enable the behavior in question by ot

MayorBob: Do me a favor.

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 15:20:13 EST
If you do go out and get that nice revolver, please take advantage of a basic gun safety course and log a few hours down at the shooting range. I've got no problem with people owning firearms but when they show up in public with a need to fill the ai

zyxwvutsr: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:38:32 EST

The 2nd amendment says I have the right to bare arms
No Shirt/No Shoes, No Service.

ms sue: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:34:55 EST
The 2nd amendment says I have the right to bare arms.
Depends upon what they look like.

MC Nally: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 14:29:34 EST

I guess it's a little jaded of me, but if people want to ruin their own neighborhoods and be asshats, so be it, but when you start going around and doing that shit in places where otherwise peaceable people are involved then yeah, I have a prob

thefadd: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 13:41:48 EST
Why are you trying to subjugate my constitutional rights in favor of yours? The 2nd amendment says I have the right to bare arms. It doesn't discriminate in terms of which arms. In fact, it strongly implies that it refers to any arms which might further th

delete me: Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:55:03 EST
Also, a hunter's safety course could be handy, even if you don't plan on using rifles or hunting. More focus on paying attention to what's behind your target, where your friends are, and how to avoid shooting your buddy in the face.

pO157: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:53:06 EST
The 2nd ammendment really means that Americans should have the right to own tanks and nukes and ricin... but does that state allow that? no... they passed a bunch of unconstitutional laws that prevent the common man from engaging in the most effective

delete me: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:51:40 EST
I thought it meant we shouldn't be allowed to wander amok limbless?

delete me: Re: Jumping on the bandwagon

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:49:44 EST
Get trained. Take a firearm safety course (actually, everyone should, whether they're pro or anti-gun). And choose a gun you're comfortable with. You can't protect yourself with a weapon you're afraid to use.
Also, figure out which one of your eyes is t

rEvolution inAction: Re: What does the 2nd Amendment really mean?

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:46:02 EST
The 2nd ammendment really means that Americans should have the right to own tanks and nukes and ricin... but does that state allow that? no... they passed a bunch of unconstitutional laws that prevent the common man from engaging in the most effective and

Lou: Jumping on the bandwagon

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 11:39:13 EST
Hell...I might as well go ahead and get that gun. I have no real experience as a shooter...what you a first-time non-victim get for a shootin' iron? I have heard that a revolver is a good place to start since they're the least complicated/most

pO157: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:55:04 EST
This shooting occurred outside a bowling alley (at which, a day later, "No police tape or visible evidence remained when bowlers arrived Sunday morning for the Wilmington Bowling Association Tournament, involving more than 200 players in singles, doubl

port1080: Re: I'll start. As a denizen of an urban area...

Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:23:27 EST
I totally concur. We've had a couple of shootings in my area recently that were kind of scarily random - not in your typical drug / thug areas (although it does appear they were carried out by characters from said areas).