http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293 Is it too late for one more war? <P> The head of <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.centcom.mil/">CENTCOM</a>, Admiral William Fallon has <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3534102.ece">resigned</a> under pressure from the more hawkish members of the Bush administration. <P> Admiral Fallon once said that an attack on Iran "would not happen on my watch". Well, it's no longer his watch...and it looks like Iranian conservatives <a rel="nofollow" hr en-us Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:04:52 EST Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:05:29 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#34 As I mentioned in my previous comments, the problem with the regime of Saddam Hussein was not the fictitious weapons program which Bush accused Saddam of having, or Saddam's non-existent support for terrorism, it was his failure to comply with the cease-fi Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:05:29 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#33 Now you know <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/55689">the rest of the story</a>. Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:55:30 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#32     Iran is not just another Islamic theocracy-- it's the most notable and successful instance of a fundamentalist party seizing power and continuing to rule for decades. Groups like the Muslim Brotherhood may have been willing to kill and terror Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:57:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#31 <i>Not to defend it in the least but it is large enough to stand on its own entirely and does not have to "normalize" relations with anyone to get by in international politics. To assume that it can be treated like Vietnam or Chile--or even Iraq or North K Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:40:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#30 Thank you for distilling your point. Vietnam and Chile have lengthy histories of colonialism so it's no surprise that they would willingly submit to a stronger influence. They are also developing satellite economies and in need of some larger power to suck Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:01:26 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#29 So's our government but we do it all the time. Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:13:48 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#28 Sigh.<p> More than <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/">half</a> a <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/wiran25.xml">century</a> ago?<p> Diplomacy is <a rel="nofollow" hre Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:51:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#27 <i>the Shah, who had American support.</i><p> Which leads us back to the counterexamples I gave. The US supported the Shah in Iran, Diem in Vietnam, and Pinochet in Chile. Chile and Vietnam have long since normalized relations with the US. Why not Iran? Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:35:46 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#26 Yes, the Shah, who had American support. Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:02:23 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#25 If not more so.   Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:58:06 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#24 If Iran actually is seeking some diplomatic rapprochement with the US, perhaps they will have better luck with a new American President in 2009, particularly if the Democratic Party's candidate (whomever that may turn out to be) wins the election.  Jo Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:44:05 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#23 Iran has made many, many diplomatic overtures to the U.S., the most recent ones being just a few years ago sometime around 2003-04.  Of course, we told them to shove it.  This whole angle to the U.S. is pushing, "You must meet our demands before Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:20:47 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#22 It is perfectly clear that George W. Bush has mishandled the war in Iraq, and that any intervention in Iraq should have been done as a UN based operation (much as the Gulf War was in 1991) rather than as a US-British operation.  Even so, there is nobo Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:49:45 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#21 <i>Even so, many Iranians would probably prefer that their government hold onto sovereign rights rather than the U.S. overtake them for the benefit of "democracy" American-military style.</i><p> And I'm sure many Lebanese would prefer their government held Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:35:00 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#20 Whoops. You're right, MC. I misread the context of the original post. Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:30:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#19 <i>The US put the hardline Islamic assholes in Iran in power when it backed the coup of 1953.</i><p> You are aware that the Islamic Republic of Iran began in 1979, yes? And that the Shah was in power until then? Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:26:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#18 <i>Iran can legitimately complain about US meddling in their affairs, more than half a century ago, but that is not a good reason for them to support terrorism at the present time.</i><p> Iran has a natural vested interest in how Iraq turns out because it Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:18:32 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#17 I really do not have to make assumptions about the intentions of Iran, it is quite easy to observe what Iranian leaders are actually saying and doing.  To say that they are an irrational, crazed culture dedicated to self-destruction may be an over-sta Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:59:21 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#16 Yours is a pretty much standard comment.  Any criticism of another country leads to the rebuttal "but the US is just as bad".  The US certainly does need to get its house in order, which I do refer to in my original comment where I say that a rad Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:44:28 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#15 <blockquote>it DOES support the Iraq insurgency<p> It does?  In what ways, specifically?  Where?  Which insurgents?  There's only about fifty different insurgent groups.</blockquote>It is well known that the bulk of the Iranian support Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:09:35 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#14 Whoops..  Sorry for the run-on link.. Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:41:17 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#13 <blockquote>&gt Overthrowing democratic leaders who are merely guilty of jeopardizing the UK's lock on oil in Iran is kind of starting on the wrong foot, isn't it?<p> If you consider Iran's leadership "democratic", then I'd like to have your express ap Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:40:04 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#12 <i>If you consider Iran's leadership "democratic", then I'd like to have your express approval for their system to be in place in the US before the next general election. Iran's current election process includes the very important step of pre-vetting all c Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:29:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#11 <i>hardline Islamic assholes in Iran</i><br> <p> Er? The US put the hardline Islamic assholes in Iran in power when it backed the coup of 1953. No one disputes this. Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:02:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#10 <i>It couldn't be that Iran had a legitimate gripe against us, now could it?</i><p> No, it couldn't, unless you consider supporting the establishment of a liberal society and constitutional monarchy a valid grievance. The US opposed a bunch of bigoted hard Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:30:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#9 <i>it DOES support the Iraq insurgency</i><p> It does?  In what ways, specifically?  Where?  Which insurgents?  There's only about fifty different insurgent groups.<p> <i>Hezbollah in Lebanon</i> <p> Hezbollah is no mere terrorist organ Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:19:42 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#8 <i>They are religious fanatics.  Such people tend to be unreasonable.</i><p> For a moment there, I thought you were talking about Americans and our president. Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:45:48 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#7 The Bush administration was actively trying to get us into a war with Iran until the National Intelligence Estimate on Iran was leaked, which severely undercut their position.  There is very little chance of that happening now.<p> I doubt Iran had muc Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:53:40 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#6 As with many of the painful and difficult issues that we are now facing, there really is more than one side to this story.  Yes, the US is already in over its head in Iraq, and hardly needs another war with Iran, a country that potentially would be mu Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:37:21 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#5 Heh, I forgot Rumsfeld and Bush forgot Poland.  I do think that seeking the counsel of people who have worn a uniform, especially during wartime, counts for something.  Especially if you're using this counsel to override and ignore the counsel of Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:04:47 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#4     At least one Bush administration figure directly involved in Iraq did wear a uniform-- <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Rumsfeld">Rumsfeld</a> did three years in direct service, and almost two decades as a reservist Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:57:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#3 Shinseki was, if you remember the US Army general who warned the Bush administration that a successful invasion and occupation (er, make that transition to democracy) was going to take twice as many US troops and much more time than the neocon brain trust Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:02:38 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#2 Some local folks had a celebratory parade at the close of Gulf War I.  In it they had a float that featured a rough scale model of a Patriot missile.  On the side of the missile was painted, "We Are All Patriots!".<p> As it happened, I recognized Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:19:04 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/3/15/10466/7293#1 Well, we'll need something to distract us from the coming economic depression. Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:50:18 EST string http://www.treesandthings.com/search/