Stop Your Seditious Teachings. (Trees And Things)

Lou: Re: POV

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:08:10 EST

Sorry about that. I'm afraid that I can be as myopic as many of my fellow Americans. What I should have said is I don't live in a country where large parts of it was wrested away from me.

Steve Urkel: Re: POV

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:42:07 EST

Political propaganda isn't a "perspective". Teaching a neutral view of the Mexican American war is one thing, dredging up obscure criminals and glorifying them as victims of racism to teach mexi-kids to feel like victims is something else entirely.

keta: Re: POV

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:36:55 EST

I don't live in a country that had a huge part of it taken away by violent conquest.

Uh, Lou? Yeah, you do. Ask the Amerindians about this.

keta: Re: POV

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:33:57 EST

Well said, Steve. Americans should never be taught to approach anything except from the proper, American perspective. Ever.

Which is why they're completely stumped when a Vietnamese refers to, "The American War."

Steve Urkel: Re: POV

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:10:37 EST

" I don't live in a country that had a huge part of it taken away by violent conquest"

Neither do these kids.

"sometimes things really do depend on one's point of view"

I thought these kids were Americans, why are they being taught the Mexican poi

Lou: Re: Mope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:04:32 EST

Siddown son! You don't want no critical thinking, looking a things from a different point of view or testing theories. No sir! You want an Education.

Lou: POV

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 16:55:00 EST

Well, I looked up your boys...some colorful characters there. Some of interesting points too.

Cortina was an officer in the Mexican army and yes, he did do outlaw-y things, but he also fought against the Confederacy during the American Civil War.

keta: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 15:10:35 EST

So, should American kids only be taught American history and not about any other history?

World Wars I & II: We saved democracy's ass in Europe twice! And those ungrateful Brits still haven't properly thanked us!

Origins of Ma

zyxwvutsr: Re: Mope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 14:20:27 EST

Public schools are not in the business of free exchange of ideas - they're in the business of education.

thefadd: Re: Mope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:55:07 EST

Its overly-broad language would impinge upon a free exchange of ideas.

uncarved block: Indeed

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:15:48 EST

While I didn't read the Raza link front to back, I'm not entirely sure it would even be illegal under the proposed law anyway. Every link I saw was actually fairly bland, public domain kind of history*-- the kind of thing that would pas

gerrymander: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:03:09 EST

The Ku Klux Klan? Are you serious?

Have it your way. Here's a PDF link to a lesson plan from the Denver school system which teaches from the same

postillion: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:01:42 EST

Again, I'll remind you that this isn't the free market, this is government fiat. Government fiat which is clearly used to promote illegal and unconstitutional aims just as clearly warrants legislative correction.

Even if it's a legislative correc

zyxwvutsr: Re: Mope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:22:25 EST

What, exactly, about the bill is "un-American"?

PenitenziAgite: Re: Simple

Tue, 22 Apr 2008 00:12:30 EST

Well, I mean you can't really talk about the last 50 years of history in the Americas without mentioning the Cuban revolution.

The trouble is, there are a goodly number of people out there who think that discussing someone like Che Guevara as any

thefadd: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:15:47 EST

At the end of the day, no matter what's going on in the classroom, there's simply no defending this law. Like I said in the subQ, if this law passed, they wouldn't be allowed to teach it because it's un-American. Hooray for secret laws not. Hi five!

Lou: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:59:38 EST

Would you feel the same about a Bible study program in a public school?

If it was taught as history or literature, sure. If was taught as a 'heaven vs. hell choose now' curriculum. No.

And aside from a snide editorial and a couple

thefadd: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:59:02 EST

People ought to study the bible critically in a public school

zyxwvutsr: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:41:54 EST

No one...not one single person to whom I offered my heartfelt pleas for proof has offered anything more than a smartass blank google link or just simply agreeing with Rep. Pierce and/or a sly editorial sans proof and/or unsubstantiated

zyxwvutsr: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Sky Fairy

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:40:41 EST

Since we both agree that the program is optional for students I can't see how this is a problem anymore
Would you feel the same about a Bible study program in a public school?

Lou: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:17:47 EST
Thank you for shedding a little light on this. I took another look at the program and the full name of the program is: Mexican American/Raza Studies. It's probably splitting hairs but if the name of the program was The Race, then I

thefadd: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:45:13 EST
Well, "La Raza" means "The Race," which would seem to have some prejudices inherent in it. IMHO, racial identity is something that can be helpful to lift the self-esteem of minorities in developing personal identity. Of course, self-esteem education has be

Lou: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:28:25 EST
And I say you're wrong, sir. While not operating strictly on a profit/loss model, the availability of classes, especially the elective programs, is based on the demand for those classes. Even with academic classes supply and demand plays a part

gerrymander: Re: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 17:01:24 EST
Isn't that the way the free market should work?
Again, I'll remind you that this isn't the free market, this is government fiat. Government fiat which is clearly used to promote illegal and unconstitutional aims just as clearly warrants le

Lou: Dope slap from the Invisible Hand

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:20:49 EST
Since we both agree that the program is optional for students I can't see how this is a problem anymore. If the program has no value to either students or their parents, then no one will sign up for it...when no one signs up for it, the program will

gerrymander: Re: Are you not entertained?

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:08:35 EST
It is an elective program.
For the students, it's elective. For the school, not so much -- and the offense is having the class available in the first place.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Here's my offer

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:19:56 EST

...if you'll accept that not everyone who is critical of the government is a leftist, commie/maoist bent on fomenting a glorious communist/socialist/slightly left of centerist revolution
I've been talking about people who tou

Lou: Here's my offer

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:56:44 EST
Do you automatically assume that every white person is a "White Supremacist?"
Let's make a deal...I'll try to accept that a jingoistic state legislator who wants to shut down groups that support non-whites is not at least a closet supremacist if

Lou: Re: Simple

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:48:29 EST
These quotes sound like they're coming from someone with an ax to grind. Links dammit!

zyxwvutsr: Re: That's infotainment!

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:45:59 EST
Who said anything about "White Power, White Supremacist"? I asked you if a university should have an office specifically tasked with providing "support services to white students." Do you automatically assume that every white person is a "White Supremacist

zyxwvutsr: Re: Simple

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:42:57 EST

So, in other words...you don't know either
No, there were numerous news accounts of the Raza Studies in the Tucson school system that described the political indoctrination that was a key part of the program. The teacher head

Lou: Re: That's infotainment!

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:41:22 EST
Should a state university have an office dedicated to providing "support services to white students"?
Well...if someone wanted to start a Irish-American, German-American, Bohemian-American (I'm lookin' at you Skeeter), Italian-American, etc, etc,

Lou: Re: Simple

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:27:34 EST
http://www.google.com
So, in other words...you don't know either. I guess we'll have to take it on faith that Pierce knows best and has no agenda of his own.

zyxwvutsr: Re: That's infotainment!

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:27:09 EST

I'm pretty sure the Campus Republicans will still get university support. And yes, I know that this is now a "racial" group
Do you think it's okay for a government-sponsored group to be formed based on race or ethnicity

zyxwvutsr: Re: Simple

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:21:21 EST
http://www.google.com

Lou: correction

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:13:19 EST
I meant "not" a racial group.

Lou: Re: That's infotainment!

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:11:10 EST
Well, I'm pretty sure the Campus Republicans will still get university support. And yes, I know that this is now a "racial" group...although they are business class.

Lou: Re: Simple

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:08:02 EST
My linky thing must be broken. Can you please point out where...anywhere...that this program glorifies Che and Fidel?

zyxwvutsr: Re: That's infotainment!

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:06:50 EST

I know what you'll say. "They can associate all they want as long as it's off campus and not using university funds"
Sure. It sounds the same as the Boy Scouts of America not being allowed to use public school facilitie

zyxwvutsr: Re: Simple

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:55:45 EST

What communist revolutionaries are being glorified here?
Ché Guevara and Fidel Castro, for instance.

It looked to me that the problem with the curriculum was that it encouraged tribal chauvinism

Lou: Re: That's infotainment!

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:51:19 EST
I don't think you read the same story I did.
Apparently we didn't. Perhaps you missed the part of the bill that also spoke of disallowing groups of black business students and native american from operating on campus. Hey! It's

Lou: Are you not entertained?

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:39:57 EST
The "jingoists" (as you call them) want to stop the mandatory teaching
It is an elective program.

MC Nally: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Mon, 21 Apr 2008 00:22:19 EST

Suppose for a moment that instead of leftists the teachers in question were religious fundamentalists who had cooked up a scheme to teach intelligent design in biology class. Would you then say that there was no reason to legislatively dictate

gerrymander: Re: That's entertainment!

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:16:20 EST
in a discussion about how jingoists want to limit free speech.
The "jingoists" (as you call them) want to stop the mandatory teaching of certain classes in government-run schools -- which is about as far from "free speech" as has ev

PenitenziAgite: Re: Simple

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:00:35 EST
If by "glorification" do you mean "teaching about"? When did Mexico go communist? What communist revolutionaries are being glorified here? It looked to me that the problem with the curriculum was that it encouraged tribal chauvinism.

Steve Urkel: Re: That's entertainment!

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 22:29:25 EST
These people have all the free speech they want. They just can't promote their political agenda in public schools.

Lou: Washing up

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:49:02 EST
Ok...I found the soap. Can you provide a link that shows the commies in this program?

zyxwvutsr: Re: That's infotainment!

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:32:45 EST
Who's trying to limit free speech?
I don't think you read the same story I did.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Soap

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:31:24 EST
No, they're in the Tucson schools. (Do try to keep up.)

Lou: That's entertainment!

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:52:00 EST
lack of free speech laughable?
What's really funny is that here you are dissing a country for its lack of free speech whilst in a discussion about how jingoists want to limit free speech. The jokes just write themselves folks.

Steve Urkel: Is this program necessary?

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:41:35 EST
"understanding and appreciation of historic and contemporary Mexican American contributions."
Even if you agree with this programs aims, isn't it a waste of class time? I think most kids can learn about the burrito on their own, outside of school.

Lou: Re: Soap

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:24:23 EST
So...if the soap in the dish...then the commies must be...under your bed?

Steve Urkel: Re: Free Entertainment

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:06:33 EST
No, I didn't know that. Do Canadians know Americans find your docility and lack of free speech laughable?

zyxwvutsr: Re: Soap

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:02:41 EST
It's in the soap dish, dummy.

Lou: Re: Simple

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:40:05 EST
I guess I would have to see them first. Barring that, can you tell me where I could find the soap?

zyxwvutsr: Re: Simple

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:30:12 EST
Well, then, do you think that glorifying communist revolutionaries should be considered a good educational practice? Do you think it's something that the legislature should ignore?

Lou: Quick glance redux

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:27:07 EST
Ok, I looked through the links again and looked for communist revolutionaries. All I found was this:
The measure is at least partially a response to a controversy surrounding an ethnic-studies program in the Tucson Unified School District, whic

Lou: Re: Simple

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:20:22 EST
Quick glance

zyxwvutsr: Re: Simple

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:59:06 EST

After a quick glance, the RAZA program doesn't look that much different from many other school programs I have worked with
Glorifying communist revolutionaries is a widely accepted educational practice?

zyxwvutsr: Re: Laufing 'til it hurts

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:57:48 EST

I have met TONS of rightwing hawks who use their official positions to politically indoctrinate the children entrusted to their care
And you're okay with that?

keta: Free Entertainment

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:54:25 EST
You folks in the US do know that your over-the-top jingoism and barely disguised racism are an endless source of amusement to the rest of the world, don't you?

Lou: Re: First amendment, anyone?

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:32:31 EST
Good point...and it would all depend on the type of supreme court it appeared before...until then all bets are off.

skeeter1: First amendment, anyone?

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:19:06 EST
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a re

gerrymander: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:53:53 EST
It sounds like something out of the McCarthy-era Red-hunting days of the 1950s.
Joseph McCarthy's anti-Communist crusade wasn't exactly the 50s-era comparison which came to my mind after reading this write-up. In fact, a fight to make the governm

Lou: Sedition

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:20:11 EST
Does "sedition" even exist anymore? Isn't it one of those worn out words like blasphemy? And, if it does exist, why does it seem to only apply to those folks who are slightly left of Bob Dole? I don't remember "sedition" being appli

Lou: Simple

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:09:29 EST
Suppose for a moment that instead of leftists the teachers in question were religious fundamentalists who had cooked up a scheme to teach intelligent design in biology class.
Well, we could slather on some of that famous academic rigor. If

Lou: Laughing 'til it hurts

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:35:53 EST
that government employees are using their official positions for political indoctrination of children entrusted to their care.)
Ain't been much in a modern highschool, eh Z?
Trust me...I have met TONS of rightwing hawks who use their official

zyxwvutsr: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:09:45 EST

If that's really the issue, wouldn't it make more sense to address it directly rather than to try to dictate the curriculum legislatively?
Yes, it would make more sense to address the pernicious influence of public employee u

zyxwvutsr: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 10:02:11 EST

I'm sure that all over Tucson there are little комсомолникс, being led down the Shining Path to glorious Maoist revolutionary paradise
Not all over Tusco

MC Nally: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 02:14:07 EST

Russell Pearce's bill seems overly-broad, but, unfortunately, necessary. There are teachers in the Tuscon schools who are using public education as pure left-wing political indoctrination.
Too bad teachers' unions make it so difficult to fir

songofthepogo: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:43:12 EST
as indigenous womb says in their song "i've learned", it's more like separate pots chillin' on the same stove.

PenitenziAgite: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:29:12 EST
I'm sure that all over Tucson there are little комсомолникс, being led down the Shining Path to glorious Maoist revolutionary paradise.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:19:06 EST
Russell Pearce's bill seems overly-broad, but, unfortunately, necessary. There are teachers in the Tuscon schools who are using public education as pure left-wing political indoctrination.
Too bad teachers' unions make it so difficult to fire a useless

MC Nally: Taken to its logical conclusions..

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:18:13 EST

The public schools would be barred from teaching the history of any ethnic or racial minority group.
Student: But you haven't told us why the Union and the Confederacy went to war.. Didn't it have something to do

MC Nally: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:11:23 EST
My impression in three words:
Election year pandering.
My fear in three more words:
Likely to pass.
Personal estimate as to the long-term effects:
Very quickly forgotten.

skeeter1: Re: Stop Your Seditious Teachings.

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 08:52:15 EST
"This time the target is anything that detracts in any way from the notion of the US as a melting pot."
As much as I enjoy America as a mixture of all cultures, I also appreciate that many have remained distinct. I may be a Bohemian (by her