I'll Get Even With You (Trees And Things)

skeptic: my concluding comment

Thu, 29 May 2008 13:48:51 EST

Primitive cultures existed for a very long time, perhaps half a million years, without destroying the global environment, although they did CHANGE the global environment, and some species were indeed hunted to extinction (the aurochs, etc.) which is an ent

zyxwvutsr: Re: the racial quibble

Thu, 29 May 2008 10:53:59 EST

...it is the advanced cultures, not the primitive ones, which are in the process of creating a number of environmental disasters for the planet...

That is only because there are almost no primitive cultures remaining on earth

skeptic: Re: the racial quibble

Thu, 29 May 2008 10:21:21 EST

I am not talking about the supposedly "noble savage". I do not believe, and certainly did not say, that people in a more primitive culture are in some way more noble than those of more advanced cultures, although it is worth noting (as I have done pr

zyxwvutsr: Re: the racial quibble

Thu, 29 May 2008 09:48:23 EST

my statement was not absolutely correct

It wasn't even remotely correct. On one matter, Urkel is right: physical appearance is not the only thing that evolves. That is not to say that predestined (and, of course, stati

skeptic: Re: the racial debate concludes

Thu, 29 May 2008 09:14:08 EST

I'm glad we cleared that up.

skeptic: Re: the racial quibble

Thu, 29 May 2008 09:11:44 EST

I was hoping that people would meet me halfway and at least try to understand what I was saying, since as I have mentioned, it is not feasible for me to be absolutely explicit about everything I am saying, given that my comments are already too long.

zyxwvutsr: Re: the racial quibble

Thu, 29 May 2008 08:19:02 EST

I have stated that the biological differences relating to ethnicity are minor and primarily relate to appearance...

I was merely mentioning that you were incorrect.

Lactose intolerance is not the downfall o

Lou: Wait...what?

Wed, 28 May 2008 18:13:59 EST
What's going on...weren't there some goal posts here just a minute ago?

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate, late edition

Wed, 28 May 2008 17:53:06 EST
From your link:
"The pot-in-pot refrigerator, also known as a Zeer الزير in Arabic, is a refrigeration device which keeps food cool without electricity by using evaporative cooling.
It is constructed by placing a clay po

Lou: Re: the racial debate, late edition

Wed, 28 May 2008 17:32:47 EST
Africans never invent anything.
Good god, Gord....I have been wanting to take a break from posting...or at least slow down a little. Now I feel like the Godfather...just when I think I'm done, they pull me back...
Are you serious...Afric

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate

Wed, 28 May 2008 13:51:16 EST
"The problems of the post-colonial period are unique in the history of Africa."
Except they aren't.

skeptic: Re: the racial debate

Wed, 28 May 2008 13:39:58 EST
Actually no, I do not pretend that Africa was idyllic before the arrival of Europeans, I merely point out that their own culture did function on its own terms, before being wrecked by European invaders.
As for the idea that even where European invaders

skeptic: Re: the racial debate, late edition

Wed, 28 May 2008 13:35:06 EST
Describing the course of African cultural evolution as an accident of history is not exactly the same as calling it a giant coincidence. And as for the history of Africa being the result of a giant coincidence that has been going on for thousands of

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate, late edition

Wed, 28 May 2008 13:22:43 EST
"if the fact that Einstein's theory of relativity was invented by a Jew, means that non-Jews could never have invented it"
Non-jews have a lengthy track record of scientific contributions. Africans never invent anything. It is true Ashkenazi Jews have m

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate

Wed, 28 May 2008 13:10:46 EST
"There is a difference between a primitive but functioning society, and an advanced but non-functional society. It is primarily the abundance of guns and other modern weaponry, introduced by Europeans, which has created such anarchy in Africa."
Yo

skeptic: Re: the racial quibble

Wed, 28 May 2008 12:10:58 EST
You have misinterpreted my comment. I am well aware that there are a variety of biological differences connected to race, including lactose intolerance (which, incidentally, I have). I have stated that the biological differences relating to eth

skeptic: Re: the racial debate

Wed, 28 May 2008 12:02:58 EST
Actually there is a subtle distinction between saying that Obama WILL be a better President, and saying (as I did) that he WOULD be a better President. I am not predicting that Obama will necessarily become the next President although he has an excel

gerrymander: Re: the racial debate

Wed, 28 May 2008 11:45:55 EST
And hardly anyone at this point would doubt that Obama would be a better President than the current, white office holder, George W. Bush.
Stating this before he's even won the Democratic nomination, much less the general election, is kind of cock

skeptic: Re: the racial debate, late edition

Wed, 28 May 2008 11:39:07 EST
Lou already made an excellent reply to your assertion that black people, although capable of piloting an airplane, are not capable of inventing one. The fact that white people invented airplanes does not in any sense mean that black people are incapa

skeptic: Re: the racial debate

Wed, 28 May 2008 11:25:04 EST
Now now, don't quibble. I didn't say that you were wrong about attributing the fall of white colonial rule in Africa to outside pressure - although there certainly were internal causes as well - I just said that this is what you are arguing. Wh

Lou: Re: No war?

Tue, 27 May 2008 21:13:34 EST
I'm sorry...I thought we were talking about war...not some kind of body count sweepstakes. Hell, if we're going to hang a numerical qualifier on this we could just as well count the current unpleasantness in Iraq as just that...unpleasantness.

zyxwvutsr: Re: No war?

Tue, 27 May 2008 19:30:53 EST
So what's the grand total dead from all those wars you mentioned?

Lou: No war?

Tue, 27 May 2008 16:53:48 EST
Barbary Wars
War of 1812
War of Texas independence
Seminole War
Mexican War
Bleeding Kansas

pO157: Re: How could we forget?

Tue, 27 May 2008 15:28:52 EST
Has there ever been a section of the planet that has been left to its own devices and its native people (except Antarctica) for a significant amount of time in the last century? Maybe the entire question is academic since superpowers have been meddling in

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate

Tue, 27 May 2008 13:28:35 EST
"black people WERE managing their own affairs"
And doing the same miserable job then as they are now.
"You may argue that the reason for the failure of European colonialism in Rhodesia or in South Africa is because of pressure applied by other countr

zyxwvutsr: Re: 3 out of 5

Tue, 27 May 2008 13:17:17 EST
And absent the war, too.

skeptic: Re: the racial debate

Tue, 27 May 2008 12:58:50 EST
This is becoming an interminable and overly complicated discussion. I am not going to reply to each point that you are making - I don't even have that much time available, at present (which is one reason why I am trying to avoid interminable and over

Lou: 3 out of 5

Tue, 27 May 2008 12:57:08 EST
war, enslavement, subjugation of women, poverty, and famine, what does that tell us?
That absent the poverty and famine (and poverty is negotiable), it sounds like pre-civil war America.

zyxwvutsr: Re: the racial debate

Tue, 27 May 2008 09:32:55 EST

Ethnicity entails minor differences in appearance, that is the extent of its biological significance
There are myriad differences of phenotype expressed in various ethnic groups. Some of those differences have significant bio

zyxwvutsr: Re: Whose massive failure?

Tue, 27 May 2008 09:15:35 EST

The fact that Africans have developed particular kinds of culture which are not entirely compatible with European culture does not necessarily prove either than African culture is inferior...
If we see that the outcome of Eur

Lou: Ok, Orville and Wilbur were white

Mon, 26 May 2008 22:07:22 EST
But blacks are incapable of inventing airplanes
Well, I give you that since the airplane was invented in 1903...at time when blacks in the US were barely two generations out of slavery. However, It didn't fail in Rhodesia. The racially enlightened countries in the rest of the world colluded to end "colonialism" in Rhodesia, and they succeeded. <

Lou: How could we forget?

Mon, 26 May 2008 19:12:33 EST
How did we miss the modern colonialism of post-colonial Africa...namely as proxy governments of the the Soviet Union and US? I'm sure propping up dictators or supporting "people's revolutions" did tons to help the African nations build stable and for

skeptic: Re: the racial debate

Mon, 26 May 2008 10:36:03 EST
I was going to let my previous comment be my last on this topic, but I have changed my mind, giving in to my typically unpredictable whim as I so often do.
If colonialism in Rhodesia had actually worked, as you assert, then Rhodesia would still be ruled

Lou: Re: the racial debate

Sun, 25 May 2008 15:08:01 EST
Sigh...if you say so Gord. Sorry to have brought something up that is at odds with your beliefs.

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate

Sun, 25 May 2008 14:27:52 EST
You mean a bunch of nonsense about the topic. You realize Marxists are biased on this issue, don't you? It's funny how the "debunkings" always bring up IQ testing in the 1920's (though that article manages to misrepresent even that).

Lou: Re: the racial debate

Sun, 25 May 2008 13:47:07 EST
Thank you, Jim. I was hoping someone would bring that up. Here's a short article that has some interesting stuff to say about the topic.

JimmyHavok: Re: the racial debate

Sun, 25 May 2008 13:32:14 EST
The same sort of arguments were advanced for the natural inferiority of the Irish, back in the 19th century.

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate

Sun, 25 May 2008 13:31:42 EST
"The current, horribly dysfunctional black-majority government is a consequence of failed colonialism. "
The colonialism worked. The failure happened after Western governments forced the handing of Rhodesia over to blacks.
"it would have functioned p

skeptic: Re: the racial debate

Sun, 25 May 2008 12:49:13 EST
Nothing was sane about what was done to Rhodesia. But who caused the problem? Had the region (which originally wasn't actually a nation as such) not been subjected to European colonization, it would have functioned perfectly well as it had been

Steve Urkel: Re: Crocodile tears

Sat, 24 May 2008 13:31:08 EST
Define racist. I don't hate anyone for being a particular race. At the same time I don't think entire countries should be turned into hellholes to live up to abstract, unreal notions of racial equality.

Lou: Re: Crocodile tears

Sat, 24 May 2008 13:18:25 EST
No, are you racist?

Steve Urkel: Re: Crocodile tears

Sat, 24 May 2008 13:04:12 EST
Are you drunk?

Lou: Crocodile tears

Sat, 24 May 2008 12:52:54 EST
In black run Zimbabwe people are starving.
What was sane about what was done to Rhodesia?
You decry the starving of black people...but lynching is just fine. I guess it's better to be hung with a full belly.
Or is your concern about

Steve Urkel: Re: Whose massive failure?

Sat, 24 May 2008 12:50:50 EST
Skin color isn't the only difference that's evolved between humans.

Steve Urkel: Re: the racial debate

Sat, 24 May 2008 12:46:25 EST
"On an individual level, when black people are compared to white people we find the same range of capabilities, personalities, and accomplishments"
We aren't talking about individual accomplishment, we are talking about group accomplishment. Individual

skeptic: the racial debate

Sat, 24 May 2008 08:50:09 EST
I actually find it distasteful to be called upon to refute nakedly racist arguments of white supremacy. I do believe in explaining to people things that they for some reason have trouble understanding, but there is a limit. As Jimmy Havok point

Steve Urkel: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 16:32:40 EST
"is not the fault of indigenous African culture, but the fault of failed European colonialism. That's the main reason why the Netherlands is doing so much better than Sierra Leone "
I see: African failure is the Europeans fault, while European ach

JimmyHavok: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 16:32:18 EST
It appears that Urkel believes that your skin and your brain are somehow organically related, so that high melanin content in one causes damage the other.
Africans show more genetic variation than any other population, a natural consequence of Africa be

skeptic: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 15:57:04 EST
The real reason why Africa is the horrendous mess that it is, is not the fault of indigenous African culture, but the fault of failed European colonialism. That's the main reason why the Netherlands is doing so much better than Sierra Leone (although

thefadd: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 14:32:48 EST
What about the Cosby family?

Steve Urkel: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 13:57:51 EST
"We really can't blame the problems of Detroit on the supposed racial characteristics of African-Americans, who have hardly been free to seek their own destiny, these past 400 years, without the interference of European-Americans"
Where blacks do poorly

skeptic: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 13:36:44 EST
You know, I already presented you with evidence, in the form of my own observations at least (admittedly without any details, although I could certainly offer details) that black people, or more accurately, people of African ancestry, have the same capabil

Steve Urkel: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 13:11:43 EST
"Your implication seems to be that blacks are racially incapable of the same degree of civilization as whites. And that, we know, is not the case"
You mean you desperately have to believe that is not the case, even though there is no evidence to s

pO157: Re: I'll Get Even With You

Fri, 23 May 2008 10:56:17 EST
I think they'll be all right, since at least according to one recent Pop Culture TV show they (or at least their merchandised and licensed clothing accessories) posses sup

pO157: Jamaica?

Fri, 23 May 2008 10:50:04 EST
I, for one, wonder how countries that get by on tourism will do with the rising price of fuel. Many tourism boards freaked at the passport rule for US citizens in the Carribean, even offering government subsidies to American tourists there on their first s

skeptic: Re: Whose massive failure?

Fri, 23 May 2008 09:20:01 EST
The phrasing of your comment is unfortunate; had you been a candidate in the current US Presidential race, this would become a problem for you. Your implication seems to be that blacks are racially incapable of the same degree of civilization as whit

wetkarma: Re: The massive failure of decolonization...

Fri, 23 May 2008 06:02:25 EST
Hm here is one time I wish TnT had the ability to post anonymously.
In any event, I grew up in a caribbean country which was formerly a british colonial possession (and before that a Spanish one). Even to this day, despite indepedence, the nominal head

port1080: Re: 'one goat can undo in an afternoon'

Wed, 21 May 2008 17:35:15 EST
It is easy to see why a civil service, controlled and manned in its upper reaches by whites, could remain efficient and uncorrupt but could not long do so when manned by Africans who were supposed to follow the same rules and procedures. The same is tru

Lou: Who knew?

Wed, 21 May 2008 15:08:27 EST
Lots Pell grants and Stafford loans in Africa, eh?

gerrymander: Re: 'one goat can undo in an afternoon'

Wed, 21 May 2008 15:03:15 EST
Call me crazy, but I prefer bank loans. They accomplish the same result without requiring me to clothe, house and feed the bank staff into perpetuity.

Lou: Re: 'one goat can undo in an afternoon'

Wed, 21 May 2008 14:55:53 EST
You might be right about the tribalism...but it's ironic that the same tribalism that goating things up is the same one that sent the family member to medical school.

gerrymander: 'one goat can undo in an afternoon'

Wed, 21 May 2008 14:43:50 EST
There was a Theodore Dalrymple article in the City Journal a few years ago which speaks to this. He relates an environment which, contra your assertion, has noth

Steve Urkel: Re: I'll Get Even With You

Wed, 21 May 2008 14:10:11 EST
This blog (may not be safe for your work) provides a South African's perspective on what's going on.

Steve Urkel: Whose massive failure?

Wed, 21 May 2008 14:07:55 EST
What you're seeing is the massive failure of blacks, who can't even maintain a civilized country that's been built by others and given to them.

thefadd: Re: I'll Get Even With You

Tue, 20 May 2008 20:15:57 EST
Well, I hope Foreigner is OK.

pO157: Re: I'll Get Even With You

Tue, 20 May 2008 14:31:01 EST
How bad does it have to be to get special notice? The State Department consular information sheet for South Africa makes it sound like a fun place to go, and a quick go

port1080: The massive failure of decolonization...

Tue, 20 May 2008 13:32:07 EST
What's happening now in South Africa (and happened during the 1990s in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe, and in the 1960s/70s most everywhere else in Africa) is that we're seeing the fallout of the failures of decolonization. In every country foreign powers came in, set