Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth (Trees And Things)

HidingFromGoro: Wise From Your Gwave!*

Wed, 4 Jun 2008 02:20:46 EST

Resurrecting a dead thread with the dark art of pedantic necromancy!

against deer (of which there are too many around here) and large dogs, against which the .223 is just about useless.

Even M855 will blow a dog of any size into next week. &nb

HidingFromGoro: Re: It won't let me put a frowny face for the subj

Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:45:29 EST

"centerfire rifle cartridges...would also not include 'elephant gun' cartridges. "

"I am referring to cartridges that are specifically for, and for the most part, exclusively used in modern rifles, since the topic was ammunition that the

PenitenziAgite: Re: It won't let me put a frowny face for the subj

Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:46:06 EST
OK, I was referring to centerfire rifle cartridges, which by definition would not include muzzleloaders or black powder, or the .45-70, which is an antique. It would also not include 'elephant gun' cartridges.
When I say rifle cartridges, I am no

JimmyHavok: exactly right

Sat, 31 May 2008 16:30:00 EST
The soldier on the ground is concerned with tactical issues. The tactical situation is to get the other guy to stop shooting at you. It doesn't matter if you kill, wound or chase him away, any of those will do the job. Killing him is the most e

HidingFromGoro: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Sat, 31 May 2008 16:18:19 EST
If you're a PFC you don't strenuously disagree with anything. The life of junior enlisted in the infantry generally consists of following orders and figuring out new and exciting ways to get a little badly-needed extra sleep. You'll notice that

HidingFromGoro: It won't let me put a frowny face for the subject

Sat, 31 May 2008 15:15:35 EST
I have never even seen an unjacketed lead bullet on a centerfire rifle cartridge. ... Sam Fedala's 'Rifle Guide' doesn't mention them.
I don't know who Sam Fedala is but it hurts my feelings a little bit that he's writing books about rifles and d

JimmyHavok: Re: I'm confused

Sat, 31 May 2008 15:05:24 EST
OK, so SOP is not to kill enemy soldiers whenever possible. I'm glad we got that straight, I was worried about you.

pO157: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Sat, 31 May 2008 11:11:11 EST
OK, but if you are some 19 year old Pfc and you strenuously disagree with the choice of armament for your patrols, how do you get your bullets changed? I assume it is not an open democracy.
Also, something I meant to bring up early in the thread. The or

Lou: Re: That's a crock.

Sat, 31 May 2008 10:13:04 EST
Back in college I worked with a guy who served in Vietnam. I threw that little bon mot about wounding vs. killing at him to show what a smart fella I was. To the best of my memory he said,
"Well, I don't know...I mean, firefights tend to be

Lou: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Sat, 31 May 2008 10:05:13 EST
I believe Rumsfeld of Avalon said that.

MayorBob: That's a crock.

Sat, 31 May 2008 10:02:12 EST
George Patton had the final word in the matter: "The idea isn't to die for your country. It's to make the other poor bastard die for his." Having been in a firefight or two in Vietnam, I can state without equivocation I fired my weapon in the hopes of ki

pO157: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Sat, 31 May 2008 09:43:44 EST
Even back then in the middle ages you would go to war with the arrows you had, not the arrows you wanted.

Lou: Re: I'm confused

Sat, 31 May 2008 08:37:03 EST
I have to agree with Z. If I came upon a wounded enemy that was still fighting, I would shoot him...if he wasn't fighting, then I wouldn't. Unless he had a nice watch.

zyxwvutsr: Re: I'm confused

Sat, 31 May 2008 07:33:12 EST

Does that mean if you came on a wounded enemy soldier, you would kill him?
Depends on the circumstances. Is that hypothetical wounded enemy soldier still fighting? If so, then yes.

harzerkatze: Re: I'm confused

Sat, 31 May 2008 05:10:24 EST

Wounding is better than killing. A wounded soldier is a greater drain on resources, and produces a greater effect on morale, than a dead one. For example, it takes only one or two people to transport a silent dead body, it takes up

skeeter1: Re: better bullets

Sat, 31 May 2008 03:13:49 EST
"the choice between 5.56mm and 6.8 SPC for urban work against civilian suspects; then our ideas about law enforcement in this country are severely fucked up."
I won't disagree with you. For the most part, the local police are using the rifl

PenitenziAgite: Re: I'm confused

Sat, 31 May 2008 01:37:14 EST
I have never even seen an unjacketed lead bullet on a centerfire rifle cartridge. I think that most rifle cartridges generate enough heat to melt lead and cause it to deposit on the bore. Sam Fedala's 'Rifle Guide' doesn't mention them.

JimmyHavok: Re: I'm confused

Fri, 30 May 2008 23:00:08 EST
Interesting. Does that mean if you came on a wounded enemy soldier, you would kill him?

HidingFromGoro: Bullets droppin' like they hot

Fri, 30 May 2008 22:22:38 EST
Forgot to include this in my last post, but this link will let you play around with the numbers and see how much bullets will drop or be affected by wind, humidity, barometer, temperature, etc. It's actually pretty neat even if you aren't a gun nut.<

HidingFromGoro: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Fri, 30 May 2008 22:20:08 EST
Well a bullet might be traveling parallel to the ground, but almost certainly not parallel to the buildings and cars along the street. I'd be surprised if a bullet went several hundred to a thousand yards in a densely populated city- especially in a

HidingFromGoro: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Fri, 30 May 2008 19:46:03 EST
I had thought that the modern soldier would have access to an array of different types of bullets for various types of engagements

Cartridge, Caliber 5.56 mm, Ball, M193 (United States): 5.56x45mm 55-grain ball cartridge.

Cart

zyxwvutsr: Re: I'm confused

Fri, 30 May 2008 19:31:21 EST
Wounded soldiers can shoot back, Jimmy. SOP is to kill them whenever possible.

JimmyHavok: Re: I'm confused

Fri, 30 May 2008 16:51:45 EST
Isn't killing the other fellow the point of the whole exercise?
Wounding is better than killing. A wounded soldier is a greater drain on resources, and produces a greater effect on morale, than a dead one. For example, it takes only o

tomc: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Fri, 30 May 2008 13:18:40 EST
I'm actually surprised to read this. I had thought that the modern soldier would have access to an array of different types of bullets for various types of engagements, just like military archers of yore who would carry different types of arrows into

Steve Urkel: Re: I'm confused

Fri, 30 May 2008 13:05:01 EST
I think they use FMJ for the same reason H.F. Goro said.
You could easily upgrade the M4, but there isn't any interest in doing so.
I haven't thought about it much, b

HidingFromGoro: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Fri, 30 May 2008 11:50:00 EST
Yeah not sure what happened with the bolding, maybe a mod can fix it.

HidingFromGoro: Re: question for the military types

Fri, 30 May 2008 11:49:27 EST
Doctrine calls for the 'pouring of fire' you mention in some cases; it's called 'suppressive fire' or 'suppression.' That's what 249's and 240's are for*. Spray and pray with the rifle isn't a good idea- at 900rpm your magazine is gone in secon

pO157: Re: question for the military types

Fri, 30 May 2008 10:08:50 EST
Sure, HQ may type that memo up from the confines of their safe offices, but I'd hate to see how they would actually enforce it on some infantry unit who is coming under fire in the field. If it was me being shot at I'd probably do the "spray and pray" thin

wetkarma: question for the military types

Fri, 30 May 2008 04:56:23 EST
I might have gotten the wrong impression from watching too many movies, but my understanding of American military tactics is generally 'pour fire upon the enemy until there is no return fire'.
Actually aiming selectively is left for snipers who have th

HidingFromGoro: Re: I'm confused

Fri, 30 May 2008 03:33:07 EST
Good luck trying to get a Thompson to feed anything other than FMJ.
Trust me.

HidingFromGoro: Re: better bullets

Fri, 30 May 2008 03:31:07 EST
I had a huge rant typed up, but I'll suffice it to say that if a police department (protect & serve) is even at the point where they're making the choice between 5.56mm and 6.8 SPC for urban work against civilian suspects; then our ideas about law enfo

HidingFromGoro: Lead

Fri, 30 May 2008 03:27:30 EST
I have a very good reason not to use unjacketed lead bullets- filth. Not to snark on you, but unjacketed lead bullets in a gas-operated system is so counterproductive that they're not even produced in a meaningful quantity. In my other comment

HidingFromGoro: Re: better bullets

Fri, 30 May 2008 03:16:58 EST
Good thinking, but I can't get behind a 50-grain bullet. 55 grains is pushing it, the 62 grain is far preferable. I'm somewhat of an advocate of 5.56mm (don't tell my friends), but I think the minimum needs to be 55 grains, if not heavier.

HidingFromGoro: Reposted per request

Fri, 30 May 2008 03:07:17 EST
The answer to the caliber debate is actually in one of your wiki links- 6.5mm Grendel and/or 6.8mm SPC. Basically, a much heavier bullet traveling at near the same speed from a differently-necked cartridge that still has the low recoil and shorter ov

HidingFromGoro: Don't jam me, bro.

Fri, 30 May 2008 03:05:21 EST
The M16 jamming meme started in Vietnam (where it was true in the beginning), but is now an urban legend. M16's were fucked up in Vietnam due to a propellant switch that caused fouling, failure to chrome-plate the chamber, and failure of soldiers to

Shy Elf: Re: I'm confused

Fri, 30 May 2008 00:47:14 EST
The Nuremberg trials set a precedent for applying the Hague conventions as general laws of war. I doubt you're going to find many people in Europe agreeing with Parks.
The ban on expanding bullets may have made some sense back in 1899 when essenti

pO157: 10:13

Thu, 29 May 2008 20:20:20 EST
The term "Gunmen" went out of vogue when these guys rolled up on the scene years ago.

skeeter1: Re: I'm confused

Thu, 29 May 2008 17:05:30 EST
"Didn't they also call them "Chicago Popcorn"?"
Only if they came out of a "Tommygun", Thompsman sub-machine gun, .45ACP. Wish I had one. I'm sure I'd never use it, but they're worth a small fortune now.

Lou: Re: I'm confused

Thu, 29 May 2008 16:30:02 EST
no one calls them "dum-dums" any longer
Didn't they also call them "Chicago Popcorn"?

Steve Urkel: Re: I'm confused

Thu, 29 May 2008 16:29:42 EST
I like guns too. I was laughing at how even the gun nuts at The Gun Zone use the politcally correct "gunperson" instead of the normal english "gunman".

skeeter1: Re: I'm confused

Thu, 29 May 2008 16:10:19 EST
Well, I guess I'm a confirmed "gunperson". I'm down to only 11 at the moment. Since I'm a civilian, and not in the military, I can have hollow-points (no one calls them "dum-dums" any longer). Should I ever need to use one (God forbid), n

Steve Urkel: Re: I'm confused

Thu, 29 May 2008 15:27:00 EST
The Gun Zone explains why that's so, and The Gun Zone knows what it's talking about because The Gun Zone is "The Gunperson's Authoritative Internet Information Resource"
(Gunperson's? Th

Lou: I'm confused

Thu, 29 May 2008 14:52:48 EST
We're talking about war, right? Isn't killing the other fellow the point of the whole exercise? So what's the deal with banning hollow points, dumdums, etc? We drop HE artillery, fragmentation grenades, napalm, FAEs ad nauseum on each oth

skeeter1: Re: better bullets

Thu, 29 May 2008 13:21:15 EST
"The trade-off between large but slow bullets vs. small but fast bullets has been the center of debate amongst riflemen since the dawn of time."
I've got everything from .22 to 12-gauge, so I think I'm covered.
I do know that my brother's poli

pO157: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 13:11:25 EST
If you are in a car and you want to keep the street crazies from coming over and reaching in, or whatever. My grandfather always used to say it when he drove us in his city back in the day and we were stuck at a light in a bad part of town on a really hot

PenitenziAgite: Re: better bullets

Thu, 29 May 2008 12:46:25 EST
The main problem with DU is that it's highly toxic, much more so than lead. The radioactivity is not as much of an issue.
Just cleaning your rifle would present an unacceptable health hazard.
Now, if the soldiers were using

thefadd: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 12:33:14 EST
What does rolling up your windows do?

pO157: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 12:19:24 EST
it's more like several hundred to a thousand yards because people are generally going to be aiming more or less parallel to the ground rather than at a 45 degree angle.
In a densely populated city a thousand yards can be several neighbor

zyxwvutsr: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 12:05:45 EST

Does anybody know how far a stray bullet can go?
Fired at maximum trajectory angle, a bullet can travel 2,000-6,000 yards, depending on the caliber and the type of weapon. In practice, though, it's more like several hundred t

pO157: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 10:41:56 EST
I would personally rather have the ones that have less penetrating quality and are less likely to go a few blocks and hit random people. To wit, when retarded gangbangers are

zyxwvutsr: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 09:50:17 EST
Urban gentlemen use pistols, not rifles.

skeptic: better bullets

Thu, 29 May 2008 09:25:30 EST
I believe in recycling, as do you all, I am sure, virtuous people that you are. Right now America has a problem of nuclear waste storage; it's so dangerous that we don't know where to put it. However, it can be recycled into extremely deadly bu

joshv: Re: Size does matter: The Debate Over Bullet Girth

Thu, 29 May 2008 09:20:28 EST
Just as a matter of practicality pO157, given your living situation, which type of bullet would you prefer the urban gentleman in your neighborhood use?
The bigger bullets have a lot of stopping power, but as a result are more likely to increase