We Don't Need No Stinking Islam 101 (Trees And Things)

gerrymander: Re: Are there any provisions...

Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:14:09 EST

There's nothing in there that I can see that says the kids complained to their parents.

Then the parents learned about the class... how? Osmosis?

What about Native American religions or the different Christian denominations that came to the

doom4rent: Re: No shit imports

Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:10:00 EST
Complexity is an understatement. You're not really aware of how strange and diverse one supposedly monolithic culture until you've watched a 20 year old muslim girl in skin-tight blue jeans singing a very passable rendition of "Bootylicious" in a public sq

DEMachina: Re: Are there any provisions...

Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:17:25 EST
The way you can tell is that the kids complained to their parents about the presentation.
There's nothing in there that I can see that says the kids complained to their parents.
The offense is in the implicit government approval of an indoc

skeeter1: Re: I know I should walk away

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:33:39 EST
I'll put in one last word(s). For the record, my roots are Bohemian, and cuisine is my quest.
Where would we be without kohlrabi polevka (Slovak), Mexican burritos (had one last week, and I don't mean Taco Hell), Hungarian goulash, German p

postillion: Re: No shit imports

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:15:02 EST
I swear I do not see how that makes me a bigot.
Because you are allowing a stereotype to color your perspective on a very large group of people who happen to practise the same religion. However, the group is composed of many many individual

T Slothrop: Re: No shit imports

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:49:59 EST
Exactly. Why do we need to import more?
On a serious note, all I mean is this: I don't want US immigration policy to stand in the way of anyone - yes anyone - who genuinely embraces what this country is all about and wants to participate in the society

Lou: No shit imports

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:31:32 EST
I just don't want you doing any of that shit or bringing any of that shit here.
'Cuz gods knows we got plenty of that right here in the US to start with.

doom4rent: Re: One way street

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:20:49 EST
Why are we hearing demands for sharia law and separate court system in freakin' Canada for fuck's sake?
The recommendation to use Islamic family law in Ontario came from Marion Boyd, former attorney general of Ontario. Premier McGuinty declined.<

postillion: Re: I know I should walk away

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:54:59 EST
I am not a bigot. God that just kills you, doesn't it? I don't care what color you are, or what the people in your old country worshiped, or even what the people in your old country do to women.
I just don't want you doing any of that shit or bringin

thefadd: Re: but did you say ribs? ok, now I'm hungry...

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:57:47 EST
The place is Fisher's. They're not open Sunday, Monday or Tuesday. On Saturday mornings, the line can be literally ten minutes long just for their pretzels. Really a fabulo

T Slothrop: Re: I know I should walk away

Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:08:45 EST

Perhaps because that's also a period when more women needed to return to work (mostly due to American middle class life only being viable with two adults working and not due to America's sudden belief in gender equality) and there was a more

postillion: Re: I know I should walk away

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:45:18 EST
But somehow those of us in the Southeast and Midwest got along just fine without them until well into the 1990's.
Perhaps because that's also a period when more women needed to return to work (mostly due to American middle class life only being v

T Slothrop: Re: I know I should walk away

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:36:00 EST

In which case you would have to stop all immigration except from Western Europe, and very few people from Western Europe wants to live in the U.S. given our government these days.
Again, I don't see the problem - with eit

postillion: Re: I know I should walk away

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:10:54 EST
I see nothing wrong with using "cultural bias" as a guide to immigration policy, either.
In which case you would have to stop all immigration except from Western Europe, and very few people from Western Europe wants to live in the U.S. given our

T Slothrop: Re: I know I should walk away

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:59:37 EST

If you wanted to rule out immigration on the basis of treatment of women, you would also have to stop immigration from places like Japan, Korea, Russia, and many other nations.
I'd have no problem with that.
I see no

postillion: Re: I know I should walk away

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:30:57 EST
Logically, here's how it works out:
You write that Muslims should not be allowed in this nation based on how they treat women.
You should consider the history of immigration in America. Generally, Western nations are those that are most liberal

T Slothrop: I know I should walk away

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:06:09 EST

...which is that as a nation with its own segment that is vehemently against women, citing Muslim cultural viewpoints on women is not a viable reason to be prejudiced against them.
So:
X equals a very, very unsav

JimmyHavok: smoke and mirrors

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:37:13 EST
That's all you have, Urkel, not an actual argument.
You hate anyone different from you, and the facts be damned, you'll move the goalposts wherever they have to be to justify it.

JimmyHavok: shut up, he explained

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:32:57 EST
Urkel claimed that Muslims don't believe in unalienable rights, I gave him a list of unalienable rights that a large number of Muslims have attested they believe in.
Bikini shows and Wahabism have nothing to do with it. And that's a lot more expla

JimmyHavok: that land bridge isn't going to wait forever

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:27:20 EST
Only if you can't handle American values like tolerance.

JimmyHavok: No way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 21:20:22 EST
The only difference (and I'll admit it could be considered a big one) is that the Amish apply those restrictions to both sexes more or less equally.
Modesty and

postillion: Re: but did you say ribs? ok, now I'm hungry...

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:30:38 EST
Excellent. I am supposed to be in Philly in mid-August for work. I will definitely check it out. I also have to try to remember to book my trip for the days when the Amish are at the food market...it's always a major disappointment when I

thefadd: but did you say ribs? ok, now I'm hungry...

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:20:32 EST
Dude, no way, forget the bread and ribs. When you go to the Reading Terminal in Philly you have to go to the Amish stand in the middle where they have the amazing soft pretzels and milk shakes. In fact, when you go to Philly, you have to go to the Reading

postillion: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:06:37 EST
God you really are an idiot.
Superb use of argument tactics. I applaud you on your clear superiority.
It just fries your brain that someone who is a complete centrist is not fond of muslim immigration. Deal with it.
Cultural bi

HidingFromGoro: Any relation to the Slapaho tribe?

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:37:29 EST
Does that mean those of us with Amerindian ancestors have to walk our happy asses back across the Bering land bridge? ;)

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:11:53 EST
God you really are an idiot.
I am conservative on a narrow range of issues only - most of them economic.
I am pro-choice. I am pro gay marriage. I am a registered independent who supported HRC until it became obvious that Obamania was going to rule t

postillion: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:58:44 EST
I did read your response to Port1080. However, I was responding to what you wrote specifically to me where you are using a tactic of argument that is clearly meant to insult and compliment yourself. I was merely commenting on your use of that t

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:41:21 EST

We got over it eventually and I think that, given time, Muslims will too. You may argue that we don't have that time, and I feel some sympathy with that argument, but I'm not sure what else to do other than wait and allow organic chang

port1080: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:18:16 EST
If everything is as great as you say, and the vast majority of the muslims coming to the West are already as modern and enlightened as you claim, then why are we seeing the level of violence and social unrest that is becoming common in the UK, France, t

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:53:29 EST
Please note that - against my better judgment - I did go on to present very short versions of my arguments on those precise points in response to port1080's attack on my assertions.

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:47:50 EST
You know, I am almost beginning to understand Gordo's level of frustration.
If everything is as great as you say, and the vast majority of the muslims coming to the West are already as modern and enlightened as you claim, then why are we seeing the leve

postillion: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:36:11 EST
But from what I've seen - on this topic anyway - you don't seem to very open to entertaining any arguments that diverge from your beliefs.
So I am not going to waste my time.
Nice backhanded pat on the back to yourself. Felt good,

port1080: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:58:21 EST
But that is a long way from saying that women are effectively chattel property, which is the muslim view.
That's hardly the case - or more appropriately, it's like saying that having slaves is "the Christian view" because Christians in the antebe

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:45:17 EST
Please note that I typed the phrase "fully observant". The Amish - especially the PA colonies - are wealthy folks who have done a remarkable job retaining their numbers.
But having observed extensively and first-hand what is happening in eas

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:30:41 EST

The only difference (and I'll admit it could be considered a big one) is that the Amish apply those restrictions to both sexes more or less equally.
And that is exactly the difference I am referring to. I consider it to

port1080: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:09:37 EST
One could argue that the Amish reasons for dressing that way are vastly different from the Islamic reasons for hiding their women.
One would be somewhat wrong about that too - Amish beliefs about sexuality and female modesty are very similar to t

port1080: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:06:10 EST
One could also argue that the fully-observant Amish population is in decline in almost all areas of the US where Amish people have settled.
One could do that, but o

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:03:12 EST
One could argue that the Amish reasons for dressing that way are vastly different from the Islamic reasons for hiding their women.
One could also argue that the fully-observant Amish population is in decline in almost all areas of the US where Amish peo

JimmyHavok: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 04:13:06 EST
Are you still here? Get the fuck out, immigrant.
That was a message from my Arapaho great-grandmother.

JimmyHavok: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 04:09:12 EST
Urkel-American values: hatred, ignorance, trollery.

postillion: Re: One way street

Wed, 11 Jun 2008 01:36:36 EST
Not Quakers, but there's plenty of Amish who still dress in traditional clothes. Just go to the Reading Terminal in Philly on the days they are there. Make sure you buy some bread and ribs from them; it makes a great meal.
Which brings me to

T Slothrop: Re: Islamophobia

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:12:08 EST
No, but it might get him or her out of PE for a semester.

tomc: Islamophobia

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:36:59 EST
If a student is diagnosed with islamophobia, does that mean they get to be exempted from doing homework?

postillion: Re: One way street

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:49:27 EST
When have the quakers ever blown anything up?
American soldiers are blowing plenty of things up as well at the behest of our American government.

doom4rent: Re: One way street

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:44:56 EST
Whether they've blown anything up or not is irrelevant to your comment about "alien" clothing habits. Restrictive "conservative" clothing for females are not alien to Western culture. Out-dated, perhaps, but not alien. And frankly, I've heard plenty of non

doom4rent: Re: One way street

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:36:51 EST
"Americans don't agree with the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights mentioned above that rights and freedoms "are subject to the Islamic Shari'ah", neither do Americans wish America to be an Islamic state, which is what the Koran requires."
I'm sure you c

Lou: Re: One way street

Tue, 10 Jun 2008 06:59:59 EST
What about Foreigner ?

postillion: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:05:44 EST
You do realize that there are Muslims who are born here as well as Muslims who are naturalized American citizens?
Nowhere is there a religion qualification in order to be an American.

postillion: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:02:57 EST
Exodus 15
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Numbers 10
And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:03:24 EST
Foreigners have no right to be here, and expelling them is not discrimination.

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:00:01 EST
I had no idea you were so obtuse. To muslims, America is a nation of infidels, right?
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it.
- Sura 2:216
The unbelievers are your sworn enemies ... Seek out your enemies relentlessly.
- Su

postillion: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:59:51 EST
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do

postillion: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:44:33 EST
I had no idea that the Koran mentioned America and required America to be an Islamic state, particularly given that the U.S. was not even founded when the Koran was written.

skeeter1: Re: Lovin' it.

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:40:53 EST
"When I was in high school, I hated...absofuckinglutely hated pep rallies. Was I a victim of "Pep Indoctrination"?"
Depending on when and where you went, I might have contributed to that... I was a member of the Pep Band (holds head i

Lou: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:04:12 EST
Yeah...at least them Christian types don't dress or look funny

Lou: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:52:00 EST
I prefer to call it extremely late term rope induced abortion.
This is going to come back to haunt you the next time you start yarbling about the rights of the unborn. Look, it's pretty simple...abortions while in the womb are far more easy

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:05:33 EST
It would be simpler if you listed the fundemental values you don't have in common with most Americans.
Americans recognize our country is premised on indivuals having certain rights, and the premise of our government is "We the people of the United Stat

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:44:36 EST
"Those" kinds of American dressed that way 200 years ago. I don't see members of the Friends dressed that way in modern America.

postillion: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:41:23 EST
Rather than replying in the negative, since you specifically talked about "our values" I would like to know exactly what values you are ascribing to me and the rest of Americans rather than what is not American and not part of what you are addressing.
I

gerrymander: Re: Are there any provisions...

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:27:28 EST
If the children's parents had been notified ahead of time, would you have been okay with this assembly?
I would still be unhappy with having a missionary group brought in to teach the class, but would accept it unless other religions requested eq

gerrymander: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:18:35 EST
The same has been said about the Constitution.
Idiots say a lot of things. The difference is that the Constitution is backed up multiple levels of government in three competing branches, all of which are tasked with its enforcement, while Islamic

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 16:05:38 EST
When have the quakers ever blown anything up?
There have been very real conflicts in the past between quakers and other Americans arising from quaker pacifism.

doom4rent: Re: In case you forgot

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:58:10 EST
"I believe you would be happier someplace like Singapore."
Except Singapore is about 14% Muslim, and prides itself on diversity (not that it's majority ethnic Chinese are doing all THAT great at exercising tolerance, but they do aspire to, it seems.)

doom4rent: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:53:42 EST
"It's alien to our culture."
http://www.beccleshelpinghands.co.uk/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/quakers.jpg
Kinda reminds me

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:18:26 EST
Why don't you make a list of muslim values that we should all find peachy?
Just because there is a range of opinion in America, does not mean there are no shared American values, or values most Americans share. I'm not going to list them all, but how a

postillion: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:06:18 EST
Nowhere have you ennumerated the values you are talking about.
To say "American values" is vague and misleading as values between cities and regions in America vary. Hence, the reason why there is a wide spectrum of voters, from extreme left to ex

Steve Urkel: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:58:55 EST
"The majority do"
Muslims are just like Americans, except for the clothes and the rock worshipping?

Lou: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:45:10 EST
Do they act like they believe such things?
The majority do...the ones that pop up in the news, not so much. To paraphrase Gerry from above, it's like thinking that folks from Westboro Baptist are representative of Christianity.

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:59:09 EST
You think there is no distinction between Islamic values and American ones?

Steve Urkel: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:51:57 EST
"your American values are the ones that include lynching"
I prefer to call it extremely late term rope induced abortion.
"How about that, even the dirty mud people have values superior to yours."
I know you're slow, but seriously, how much of a si

JimmyHavok: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:50:57 EST
Those are certainly fine words, but sadly, words is all they are.
The same has been said about the Constitution.

gerrymander: Re: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:24:06 EST
Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam
Those are certainly fine words, but sadly, words is all they are. Call me when the first non-Islamic house of worship open in Saudi Arabia, and the Iranian government allows bikini fashion shows.

gerrymander: Re: Are there any provisions...

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:03:04 EST
you think the kids are sheep who are incapable of deciding their beliefs for themselves independent of an authority figure
Actually, it mean I think the kids have decided for themselves, and have decided that the presentation abridged their right

gerrymander: Re: Are there any provisions...

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:55:05 EST
If anything, I don't understand why conservatives are unhappy about American children learning about Islam.
Conservatives are frequently unhappy with children learning about Islam because of who is teaching it. It's one thing to have a non-biased

Lou: Re: In case you forgot

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:56:45 EST
You know...I can understand why you hate this poem so much.

DEMachina: Re: Are there any provisions...

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 06:42:51 EST
So you would have no difficulty with, say, a mission from Bob Jones University holding a single impromptu "Introduction to Christian Prayer" session at a local school? No advance information to parents given, no other religions invited, no third party (

DEMachina: Re: Are there any provisions...

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 06:35:31 EST
Would you care to expand upon what it is you prefer about forced Islamic religious indoctrination in schools so greatly that it should outweigh First Amendment-guaranteed rights?
If I were one of those kids (or one of their parents), I'd be insul

JimmyHavok: hate hate hate hate hate

Mon, 9 Jun 2008 04:55:04 EST
The people who put up the Statue of Liberty disagreed with you about American values. But then, your American values are the ones that include lynching, so that's no surprise.

JimmyHavok: Re: In case you forgot

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:38:32 EST
Those documents Lou quoted are not legally binding (except for the third one), they are representations of the values of America. Since you don't share them, you ought to leave our country for one that does share your values. I be

JimmyHavok: Re: Are there any provisions...

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:32:03 EST
Bone-deep ignorance and hatred is a God-given civil liberty.

gerrymander: Re: Are there any provisions...

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 21:19:02 EST
If the context was similar (i.e. a student had been a victim of violence which was apparently based on religious intolerance), then I would not have a problem with it.
Interesting. So what you're saying is that, because of a known history of a

Steve Urkel: Re: In case you forgot

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:38:06 EST
The Declaration does not obligate us to accept foreigners, let alone hostile ones. The Founders certainly felt they could restrict immigration if they saw fit.
It's absurd to think a crappy poem from the side of the statue of liberty obligates us to do

Lou: In case you forgot

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 14:43:10 EST
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your hud

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 14:28:12 EST
You have a peculiar notion of what American values are.

JimmyHavok: allow me to help you understand

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:14:58 EST
Look, Muslimofascists are mud people, and teaching our kids that they are equal to real Americans and should be respected goes against every Texan value. Next thing you will be saying that the Mexicans should be allowed to vote. Lowe should tha

port1080: Re: Are there any provisions...

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:23:25 EST
So you would have no difficulty with, say, a mission from Bob Jones University holding a single impromptu "Introduction to Christian Prayer" session at a local school? No advance information to parents given, no other religions invited, no third party (

port1080: Re: One way street

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:05:39 EST
neither do I believe that you would be ok with some Falwell type running a "this is what evangelicals believe" seminar on a public school's time in front of your kids.
Well, all I can say is that you don't know me as well as you think you do. &nb

JimmyHavok: Re: One way street

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 04:55:27 EST
We should not accomodate people who reject our values.
Then get the fuck out of my country.

JimmyHavok: Re: Lovin' it.

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 04:53:30 EST
I'm guessing
Good enough for me!

JimmyHavok: Re: Are there any provisions...

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 04:51:31 EST
Look,pal, punching the shit out of scapegoats is a sacred American right, and anyone who wants to tell me different is going to have to get through the Constitution to do it.

gerrymander: Re: Lovin' it.

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 02:08:30 EST
It's not just the "what" (I'm guessing the CAIR members didn't just read from the slideshow); it's also the "how." If the school is going to have a class on religious practices, it should have a class on religious practices, plural. It should

gerrymander: Re: Are there any provisions...

Sun, 8 Jun 2008 01:57:46 EST
Requiring students to sit through a class is hardly indoctrination.
So you would have no difficulty with, say, a mission from Bob Jones University holding a single impromptu "Introduction to Christian Prayer" session at a local school? No advance

MayorBob: Was the assembly necessary?

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:19:02 EST
From what I can glean from the links on this one, it seems that the principal was informed that one child was beat up by another child because the first child was a Muslim. At least it didn't seem like there were any other children involved. Pe

T Slothrop: Re: One way street

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:50:35 EST
You know, my bullshit meter just hit the peg so hard the dial face shattered. While I do not agree with Gordo's "send 'em all back to where they came from" philosophy, neither do I believe that you would be ok with some Falwell type running a "this

Lou: Lovin' it.

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:21:34 EST
"religious indoctrination"
So, just talking about something is indoctrination? Back when I was a teacher, I started a model airplane club. To start things off I had an after school demonstration and discussion. Was I guilty of "Aviatio

Lou: Re: Are there any provisions...

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:05:33 EST
Does that include any white americans who choose to follow Islam?

port1080: Re: One way street

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:04:51 EST
I'm curious, if some fundementalist kid has a conflict at school, would you support his fundementalist church coming in to teach the whole school about being tolerant of fundies? If the conflict was due to their religious beliefs then yes, I'd be

Steve Urkel: Re: One way street

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:08:22 EST
How far should we take this? I'm not sure. You proposed kicking people out. Millennialists are odd, but Christians of all types have always been part of America, and Islam has always been alien to our culture.
I'm curious, if some fundementalist

port1080: Re: One way street

Sat, 7 Jun 2008 16:44:04 EST
Which is understandable, it's an article of Islamic faith that "infidels" are inferior.
We should not accomodate people who reject our values.
How far should we take this? Many of the Christian