Psychiatric Hospital Death Caught on Tape (Trees And Things)

zyxwvutsr: Re: lecturing on netiquette

Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:29:19 EST

You didn't answer my question. You answered your own question.

skeptic: lecturing on netiquette

Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:14:09 EST

Now you are complaining because I was considerate enough to answer your own question! Pretty good. I will never reply to another comment of yours again.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Why stay on topic?

Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:21:39 EST

...there are other demands upon my time, some of which are more important

Such as lecturing on nettiquite?

skeptic: Why stay on topic?

Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:52:54 EST

You are always free to decide whether a given topic is worth discussing. If it's not worth discussing, don't discuss it. I personally do not post comments on all (or even most) of the topics that come up on this site. When I don't post a

zyxwvutsr: Re: Pointless Argument: Depressing.

Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:41:59 EST

this whole off-topic discussion was really unnecessary

What, compared to discussing why government-run hospitals suck? I mean, is that really a topic that requires discussion beyond, "Hey, guess what? Government-run hospitals

skeptic: Pointless Argument: Depressing.

Wed, 9 Jul 2008 09:27:36 EST

No, you don't need to spell things out in such exacting detail. In fact, this whole off-topic discussion was really unnecessary. It is my impression that you are engaged in an obsessive dissection of my comments, and no matter how clear and sim

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Tue, 8 Jul 2008 18:18:22 EST

No doubt there are people who because of their criminality wind up poor and unemployed (perhaps they had an employer, who then fired them for stealing from the company) and there are others who, because they lived in an economically depresse

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:13:59 EST
No doubt there are people who because of their criminality wind up poor and unemployed (perhaps they had an employer, who then fired them for stealing from the company) and there are others who, because they lived in an economically depressed region and ha

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Tue, 8 Jul 2008 12:10:38 EST

...unemployment, poverty...are related to high crime rates. Desperate people commit desperate acts. There are lots of people in this world who have chosen crime as a profession only because they did not find any better alternativ

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:47:04 EST
Actually, even you, in your discussion with Jimmy Havoc, came up with a few examples of ways to help reduce criminality, such as the remediation of lead paint. Lead poisoning increases the chance of both insanity and criminality. And I have alr

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:21:08 EST

...there are certain specific forms of goodness which are particularly applicable to the problem of crime prevention (however, I am not going to produce an extended essay...)
Oh, come on. I don't want an extended essay, I jus

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:04:40 EST
There is much more that I could say beyond the simple suggestion of being good to other people; there are certain specific forms of goodness which are particularly applicable to the problem of crime prevention (however, I am not going to produce an extende

HidingFromGoro: Re: Well, One Place

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 22:32:22 EST
I can agree with that, I've worked in big institutional kitchens before and each meal would have at least one and usually more 55-gal trash barrels full of unserved food being thrown away- and there weren't any sedentary types there, either. Spent a

thefadd: of course

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 18:39:36 EST
comic books are eeeevil!

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 18:33:57 EST

Do you think that "evilness" is innate, or does it respond to social conditions?
Both, of course.

Are there degrees of evilness, or is it all or nothing?
Nearly infinite gradations, I'd guess

JimmyHavok: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 17:32:23 EST
The number one reason is that they are evil.
So all we need to do is develop an evil meter, and lock up the people who make it twitch. There goes the Republican Party!
Do you think that "evilness" is innate, or does it respond to social

pO157: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 16:17:41 EST
And his name still sits in a place of honor in Ralph Wilson Stadium.
Then again, being confined to Buffalo for all eternity may be a fate worse than life in a Californ

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:41:51 EST

And if it's the evil ones who are thrown in prison then why is OJ still walking around?
OJ Simpson is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:34:37 EST

...in general, if you are good to others, you will help them to become better people...
That's all you were talking about when you wrote, "it is much more socially useful to prevent crime in the first place"? Hell, even I can

Lou: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:31:22 EST
Ladies and gentleman of the jury, even though most of evidence is circumstantial, the public defender incompetent, the witnesses are deal making criminals, and the defendant is a person of color...look into his heart and you will see he is evil....eeeevil!

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:25:49 EST

Is this "number one" reason likely to stand up in court?
Absolutely. It's the evil ones whom we throw in prison.

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:51:39 EST
Even if it is true that the #1 reason why people commit crime is that they are evil (and that is a simplistic explanation, even though there are certainly many people in the world who deserve to be described as evil) there are still reasons why some people

Lou: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:36:16 EST
Yes, I know. The number one reason is that they are evil.
Wait, what...evil like the "Devil Made Me Do It" evil? Is this "number one" reason likely to stand up in court? Do you have some stats?

Lou: Re: You're kidding, right?

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:31:40 EST
Since when is mental illness a crime? Me, I'm thinking he had a unibrow with big jaws and a weak chin.

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:20:48 EST

There are reasons why people become criminals, you know...
Yes, I know. The number one reason is that they are evil.

...a law-abiding citizen who some day snaps and kills someone...the most typical case is t

zyxwvutsr: Re: You're kidding, right?

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:09:29 EST
I guess you missed the part about, "ex-postal employee...a history of mental illness."

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:08:39 EST

I don't think the technology is there yet
Technology has nothing to do with it. A significant portion of homicides are committed during the commission of another felony. Law-abiding citizens don't suddenly wake up one morning

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:54:46 EST
Well yes, it is better to have locked up a criminal before he murders. Better still, would have been to have in some way encouraged and enabled the person in question to pursue some honest profession or activity, rather than becoming a criminal. &nbs

Lou: You're kidding, right?

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:53:36 EST
Really? I don't think I've ever heard of such a thing happening
It may be more common than you think.
I googled about half of the stories h

Lou: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:34:12 EST
Were you saying that it's better to have locked up a criminal before he murders? If so, then I agree.
Astute as always, Z. Sadly though, I don't think the technolo

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 11:29:13 EST

Actually, I think that there are many cases of law-abiding citizens who in some unusual circumstance snap one day and kill
Really? I don't think I've ever heard of such a thing happening. Can you cite an example or two?
As

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:15:52 EST
Actually, I think that there are many cases of law-abiding citizens who in some unusual circumstance snap one day and kill. There are, of course, also other people who are habitual or professional criminals who have committed any number of crimes pri

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 10:01:43 EST

Which is better, to prevent someone from being murdered, or to allow the murder to occur so that the murderer can then be locked up...
You're proposing a false dichotomy. It's naive to think that a murder is the first crime c

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:39:51 EST
When I say that it is MORE socially useful to prevent crime than it is to apprehend and incarcerate criminals after they have committed crimes, that does not in any way mean or suggest that it is not also useful to apprehend and incarcerate criminals. &nbs

uncarved block: Well, One Place

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:20:00 EST
that money goes is the kitchen. Even though my experience was in a nursing home, I imagine the "institutional" part of it remains similar, almost exact. See, even though a lot of the residents are fairly sedentary, and hence don't ever work up much of an a

Lou: Cesare Lombroso shows the way

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 08:37:27 EST
Z makes a good point. One way we can stop crime in its tracks...stop it before it happens is to take a fresh look at Anthropological Criminology. Odd bumps on

JimmyHavok: Re: ftw

Mon, 7 Jul 2008 04:42:02 EST
I agree that some people are broken and need to be taken out of society. However, we seem to be doing it to an awfully large number of people, many more than are necessary, and the way we do it leads to more crime, not less.
There are more cost-ef

zyxwvutsr: Re: ftw

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 17:40:22 EST

You seem to have some sort of idea that the crime rate is essentially constant. But the truth is that it varies, so there must be some sort of influence on it from social conditions
Whatever gave you the idea that I thi

JimmyHavok: Re: ftw

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:49:13 EST
You must mean
That's an awfully short list.
You seem to have some sort of idea that the crime rate is essentially constant. But the truth is that it varies, so there must be some sort of influence on it from social conditions.
Figure

zyxwvutsr: Re: ftw

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:57:40 EST

...don't you think it would be preferable to deal with social conditions that lead to crime?
You must mean lead paint remediation and removing the influence of criminals from poor neighborhoods. Yes, I am in favor of both of

pO157: Where does the money go?

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:07:54 EST
My friend told me she got billed at over a grand a day (base rate, before anything else) for her stay in the unit. I heard some nursing homes bill huge amounts as well ($6k a month was one back when I was an EMT). Of course, whether they actually retrieve

pO157: Re: ftw

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:04:07 EST
What do you mean?
No matter how poor, destitute or uneducated somebody is they have to know that stealing that stereo or kiting bad checks is wrong. From my experience here in this little slice of heaven I see very few cases of Jean Valjeans stealing lo

teaweed: Trickle down

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 08:44:41 EST
I agree that much of the misery in psych facilities is due to the staff, but I don't think it's because the flunkies are undereducated, or that there's a shortage of psychiatrists/psychologists/RNs (though I concede the later is arguable). Instead, I suspe

JimmyHavok: physical abuse in psych ward

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:13:41 EST
I worked at Hawaii State Hospital (aka Red Roofs) for a while as a contract security guard, in the lock-down unit. I was appalled by the way I saw the orderlies treating inmates. They didn't seem to take into account that the people they were d

JimmyHavok: ftw

Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:08:30 EST
Since criminals only get locked up after they commit crimes, don't you think it would be preferable to deal with social conditions that lead to crime? Or are you counting on someone else to be the victim of the crime that gets that criminal lo

zyxwvutsr: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:35:01 EST

...it is much more socially useful to prevent crime in the first place rather than having to track people down, arrest them, bring them to trial, and incarcerate them
Although I lock my doors and avoid going to bad parts of t

songofthepogo: Re: Psychiatric Hospital Death Caught on Tape

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:49:57 EST
5.00, frightening

ivyafire: Re: Psychiatric Hospital Death Caught on Tape

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 14:04:32 EST
The worst part of this is, there are abuses that the average Joe doesn't even know about. My brother's wife and mother in law work in a facility that takes care of patients with mental illness and mental retardation, many of them non-verbal and unabl

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:23:32 EST
Oh, absolutely, I have long argued for the legalization of marijuana. As a treatment for mental illness, marijuana would be as good or better than many drugs that are now prescribed, but that is a relatively minor reason for legalization. The t

pO157: Re: front line versus rear echelon

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 12:06:49 EST
He spent an extra week in the surgical ward just because the case manager(s) couldn't get it together to transfer him over to rehab.
Is the bill itemized? If so he should refuse to pay for the last week or so, and have his insurance compa

skeeter1: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:21:15 EST
"We have quite a lot of social problems for which we do not have good solutions, so instead we merely cope as well as we can. "
Here's a suggestion: How about we finally legalize marijuana? &nb

skeptic: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 09:48:51 EST
We have quite a lot of social problems for which we do not have good solutions, so instead we merely cope as well as we can. Just as it is much more socially useful to prevent crime in the first place rather than having to track people down, arrest t

JimmyHavok: front line versus rear echelon

Fri, 4 Jul 2008 03:30:29 EST
We just got my father-in-law out of the hospital a couple of weeks ago, after he had to have his leg amputated due to a persistent infection. The nurses, were, without fail, very caring. But the case managers, were, without fail, completely clu

skeeter1: Re: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:48:42 EST
"Put a bunch of undereducated people into low paying, high stress jobs where they risk being physically injured but still give them tons of responsibility and authority over their fellow human beings and don't be surprised when mistakes like this occur.

pO157: Psych Facilities: Depressing.

Thu, 3 Jul 2008 13:32:42 EST
I have a close friend who ended up in a psychiatric facility a few times, so I visited her probably a dozen or so evenings. While I think it gives me an insight as to why a tragedy like this occurred I have also concluded I never, ever, want to end up in o

port1080: No respect for patients...

Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:13:49 EST
Here in Delaware we had a recent series of investigative articles by the local newspaper that found rampant abuse at t

thefadd: Re: Nothing to Worry About Here

Wed, 2 Jul 2008 13:08:24 EST
This is what I meant by that being the inappropriate word to use. I didn't mean patients are over-institutionalized. I think people who do medical work suffer from over-bureaucratization. That's a better word for what I was saying there.

pO157: Re: Nothing to Worry About Here

Wed, 2 Jul 2008 11:57:26 EST
I think we have great high end care but I think we suffer from over-institutionalization...
I disagree to a certain extent. I would argue that the resources are inappropriately distributed and in many cases people are under-institutionalized. B

thefadd: Re: Nothing to Worry About Here

Wed, 2 Jul 2008 03:29:04 EST
I think we have great high end care but I think we suffer from over-institutionalization...not that people are put in institutions too frequently (they may be but that's not my point) but that the people working in many of these places are so overwhelmed a

Shy Elf: Nothing to Worry About Here

Wed, 2 Jul 2008 02:05:39 EST
We have the best medical non-service in the world.

HidingFromGoro: Re: Psychiatric Hospital Death Caught on Tape

Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:58:56 EST
It's not just a mental health problem.

thefadd: Re: Psychiatric Hospital Death Caught on Tape

Wed, 2 Jul 2008 00:04:08 EST
The fact that they still call themselves the "Mental Hygiene" legal service says quite a bit about where we still are in this department. However, I feel that the shock, response, and fact that this was caught on tape says a lot about how far we have come

skeeter1: Re: Psychiatric Hospital Death Caught on Tape

Tue, 1 Jul 2008 23:26:46 EST
I worked in hospitals for 26 years, with psych units, and that never would have been tolerated. On the one occasion I was a (cancer) patient and fell down in the middle of the night, there were nurses there within 10 seconds. That's the way it