Spam Kills (Trees And Things)

ivyafire: Re: people as property

Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:23:04 EST

For the last time (because I'm damned tired of arguing what you so plainly stated, too) I am not "personally offended" by any of this. You made some very broad statements (you didn't say "everyone" or "all" but nonetheless you implied this to be a wide-

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:17:56 EST
For the last time (because I'm damned tired of arguing what you so plainly stated, too) I am not "personally offended" by any of this. You made some very broad statements (you didn't say "everyone" or "all" but nonetheless you implied this to be a wide-ran

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as monkeys

Wed, 6 Aug 2008 08:50:04 EST

the fact that humans have since achieved enough self-awareness to actually be able to examine and make choices about our own behavior greatly diminishes the importance of our genetic "programming"
I think you should consider

dzetetes: Re: people as property

Wed, 6 Aug 2008 04:35:54 EST
Even though nothing I've said, in my original post, or in subsequent posts, could be construed to be an insult to you or ivyafire personally, or even by proxy in your roles as adoptive/step parents (because I've sought to describe general

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Wed, 6 Aug 2008 00:39:04 EST
No it wasn't the original question at hand, you're right.
But it kinda became the question at hand when you wrote:

... but (also like most people) I'd be less likely to go the extra mile for anyone else's kid. Chal

dzetetes: Re: people as property

Wed, 6 Aug 2008 00:12:09 EST
For the many parents who adopt children, or who raise stepchildren as their own, the idea that it's normal human nature to assume that nobody else would care for your children because they wouldn't share DNA is ludicrous
It's not just ludicrous

ivyafire: Re: people as property

Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:26:34 EST
I was really starting to think that I was some kind of outlier and that most step and adoptive parents were very different kinds of folks than I am.
Not at all. In fact, I find the entire concept especially surreal, considering in another t

T Slothrop: Re: people as monkeys

Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:10:36 EST
I don't deny that the basic structure of human behavior was put together while we were still shrieking and throwing poo at each other on the African savanna. But I do think the fact that humans have since achieved enough self-awareness to actually be able

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as monkeys

Tue, 5 Aug 2008 11:04:41 EST

I am not a big fan of "evolutionary psychology"
How do you explain the structure of human behavior if not as a product of evolution?

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:16:28 EST
Thanks, ivyafire.
I was really starting to think that I was some kind of outlier and that most step and adoptive parents were very different kinds of folks than I am.
And to dzetetes, I do understand you are talking about "investment" rather than "lo

ivyafire: Re: people as property

Tue, 5 Aug 2008 00:08:40 EST

For the many parents who adopt children, or who raise stepchildren as their own, the idea that it's normal human nature to assume that nobody else would care for your children because they wouldn't share DNA is ludicrous in addition to being ins

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as automatons

Sun, 3 Aug 2008 22:07:30 EST

...unconscious rubrics that seek to weigh the future reproductive success of one child over another seem to be a major factor in the phenomenon...Obviously, these generalizations don't apply to every human being. If you provide

dzetetes: Re: people as property

Sat, 2 Aug 2008 03:33:40 EST
In all fairness, I wasn't talking about love, I was talking about parental care and investment, which isn't the same thing.
I'm an armchair biologist at best, so zyx and a couple of others whose handles I don't recall at the moment could probably do a b

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:58:23 EST
But see I don't think I'm a "really great" step parent. In fact, I am pretty sure I'm not. I think any responsible adult faced with a situation similar to mine should respond as I have.

thefadd: Re: people as property

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 18:06:45 EST
I think his point was that we would certainly like to be past that and I believe he accounted for cases such as yours when he said, "Excepting...really great adoptive parents/guardians."

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as people

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:48:01 EST

...so... Darwinian. Aren't we supposed to be just a bit past that?
You're an animal. Just like MAYORBOB. Admit the truth.

ivyafire: Re: aftermath

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:14:01 EST
But either they'd make the wrong decision, or they'd agree. Or worse, they'd try to argue against the suicide, too.
Yeah, the nerve of people, thinking they have a right to have a say in these things.

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:54:41 EST
I'm not taking it personally. But it does bother to hear anyone say, in essence, "I can never love a kid that I didn't spawn as much as one that I did". To me that is so... Darwinian. Aren't we supposed to be just a bit past that?

thefadd: Re: people as property

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:18:34 EST
I don't think there's any reason for you to take his observation personally.

JimmyHavok: Re: aftermath

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:41:54 EST
most people would prefer to be consulted before you make that decision for them.
Oh, no doubt. But either they'd make the wrong decision, or they'd agree. Or worse, they'd try to argue against the suicide, too.

ivyafire: Re: aftermath

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 13:01:33 EST
Look at it this way: if I kill myself, I harm my family by making them deal with the aftermath. If I kill them too, problem solved!
There is a certain sick logic to this line of thinking, if you know anyone who has ever had a suicide in the

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:25:42 EST
Wow.
Rarely have I read something on TnT that I disagree with more:

If the situation were different, and I had, say, married a widow with a small child, I honestly can't say that I could take care of him/her as well as his/her father c

JimmyHavok: Re: Ivyafire mentioned this in the subqueue.

Fri, 1 Aug 2008 00:21:20 EST
Look at it this way: if I kill myself, I harm my family by making them deal with the aftermath. If I kill them too, problem solved!

dzetetes: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:45:33 EST
yeah, i didn't think it made a lot of sense, either.
One of the most remarkable effects of Enlightenment and post-Enlightenment thought has been the the slow, but steady, acceptance of the idea in Western societies that the individual is the pr

ivyafire: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 19:23:57 EST
Yes. I feel like the shame factor is just an excuse. I don't feel like he gave a rat's ass who he hurt, or what the consequences of any of his actions were, as long as he didn't have to pay.
Suicide was an easy out, and he didn't give

songofthepogo: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:45:42 EST
I might even go so far as to say he was a sociopath.
i think he could safely be said to define sociopath.
this was discussed recently on /., and it was there that i read an hypothesis, put forth by psychologists, that often the men in th

ivyafire: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 16:54:59 EST
But if you look at this asshole's criminal career, his actions pretty much define "selfish" throughout.
Very true. I want what I want, and to hell with everyone else.
I might even go so far as to say he was a soc

T Slothrop: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:53:11 EST

What a selfish, sick, evil thing to do.
Agreed. But if you look at this asshole's criminal career, his actions pretty much define "selfish" throughout.

ivyafire: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:45:14 EST
Maybe not. It still pisses me off.
Off yourself, you loser, but leave your kids and everyone else alone. :(
What a selfish, sick, evil thing to do.

MayorBob: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:44:11 EST
That they did, Steve. Or, at least they did their damnedest to abolish it. However, was still a hardcore element who stuck with it. The practice was finally outlawed by Indian law in 1987 with the enactment of the

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:36:44 EST
Now they have sluttee.

Steve Urkel: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:51:56 EST
"Indian culture progressed past the ritual of sati, or suttee, a long time ago"
Suttee was abolished by the British.

skeptic: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:00:28 EST
Civilization is often described as a thin veneer. Underneath the veneer lies the same old barbarism and savagery that has been with us for the past half a million years or so.
My own observation is that while most members of any civilized society

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 11:04:25 EST

Eddie Davidson didn't evolve in a neolithic cave
What are you talking about? Of course he did. So did you.

MayorBob: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:30:36 EST
I understand that. But Eddie Davidson didn't evolve in a neolithic cave.

zyxwvutsr: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:00:58 EST

That might work in primitive cultures, but this is 21st century Western life
Humans did not evolve under conditions of 21st century western life.

MayorBob: Re: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:37:29 EST
That might work in primitive cultures, but this is 21st century Western life. I can understand the impulse to feel responsible for close family members; it informs the need to make sure your family is safe and secure, you go out and earn a living to suppo

wetkarma: people as property

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 09:06:12 EST
Its the same reason why some cultures seek to exert significant control over close family members. You own/are responsible for your wife and kids - there is no separate identity as they are merely adjuncts of you, as a result if you decide to kill 'yoursel

MayorBob: Ivyafire mentioned this in the subqueue.

Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:05:26 EST
But, it's a question that often mystified me. I understand that things get out of control or it seems like everything you do turns to shit and suicide looks to be a promising alternative to living. But why do a lot of suicides decide they have to get a g