The Bear Is On The Rise In Georgia (Trees And Things)

skeptic: immigration vs. secession

Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:00:56 EST

Of course, they can always immigrate (or emigrate, as the case may be). For example, rather than going to war with Georgia, the ethnically Russian population of South Ossetia could have emigrated to Russia. That would have been a very neat solu

MayorBob: Re: The Boys With The Poi Want Their Kingdom Back.

Mon, 18 Aug 2008 18:04:05 EST

Apparently, the "King" couldn't find the throne room. Wouldn't the man who would be king be able to turn that trick?

JimmyHavok: Re: The Boys With The Poi Want Their Kingdom Back.

Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:23:27 EST

A month or so ago, we had another sovereignty group calling itself Kingdom of Hawaii Government invade Iolani Palace. They were handled with kid gloves, and allowed to set up some sort of operations in the palace.

I guess Kingdom of Hawaii Nation

JimmyHavok: Re: how far will I go?

Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:18:09 EST

Why should a minority of the population be allowed to prevent the majority - however slender that majority may be - from having the kind of nationality or political affiliation that it wants?

They can always immigrate...

skeptic: Re: how far will I go?

Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:07:27 EST

Personally I feel that a 50% +1 majority should be sufficient for secession. If we believe in democracy, then the majority rules. Why should a minority of the population be allowed to prevent the majority - however slender that majority may be

delete me: Re: Yoicks!

Sun, 17 Aug 2008 01:50:59 EST

One of those ruined a day of fishing for me when I was a kid there. I was fishing in Pearl Harbor when one of those yellowjackets landed on my face. Then it crawled in one side of my glasses, across the bridge of my nose, and out the other side of my glass

MayorBob: Yoicks!

Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:35:25 EST

That's one nasty looking insect. I can imagine how getting attacked by a few of those puppies might ruin an early morning cycle down Haleakala. Stinging insects a

delete me: Re: The Boys With The Poi Want Their Kingdom Back.

Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:13:31 EST

I like the news headlines in the sidebar to the right:

» Hawaiian group storms Iolani Palace
» Maui park on lookout for aggressive WASPs

Okay, so it wasn't capitalized ...

MayorBob: The Boys With The Poi Want Their Kingdom Back.

Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:44:31 EST

Now, if Putin will only send a brigade or two of helpful Russian "volunteers" things could get really interesting in the Aloha State.

JimmyHavok: Re: how far will I go?

Sat, 16 Aug 2008 04:07:40 EST

Would you propose that 50% + 1 would be the necessary number to vote for secession, or would you want a higher majority?

T Slothrop: Re: Is anyone else starting to get nerves

Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:49:53 EST

Agreed. It does make me feel some better that no one in the Kremlin has given approval of or for that matter even acknowledge the General's comments.

Otoh, neither Putin nor Medve-whatever-the-fuck-the-sock-puppet's-name-is has actively disavowed

port1080: Re: Is anyone else starting to get nerves

Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:02:07 EST

Russian generals have a fairly long history of making off-the-cuff threatening remarks that don't actually reflect Russian policy (going back to Soviet times, even). So, I don't think we should read too much into that comment, since it didn't come di

Lou: Re: Is anyone else starting to get a little nervou

Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:57:40 EST

Yes...agreed. When I first read that, I had a WTF moment.

T Slothrop: Is anyone else starting to get a little nervous?

Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:45:09 EST

This sounds like a lot more than just saber-rattling. Has Putin lost his mind?

skeptic: Re: how far will I go?

Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:30:19 EST

I actually did address this point in my original comment. I suggested that there should be a minimum requirement of 50,000 people in order to form any new political unit. Obviously, if we take things to the ultimate extreme, so that even a sing

PenitenziAgite: Re: I Don't Know

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:55:07 EST

I bet the average Russian hasn't forgotten.

No bet. It doesn't make the news here, but Russia genuinely feels as though they are being encircled by allies of the U.S. and NATO. With early warning radar installations in Poland and Czec

Lou: Me war you long time

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:27:39 EST

Neocons have been in a funk ever since those ungrateful Iraqis stopped throwing roses at our tanks...oh sure, the Surge perked them up a bit. But it was never really the same. But wait? What's this? Could it be? YES! The

ckm: Re: The Bear Is On The Rise In Georgia

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:25:45 EST

It's really not a matter of 'we can't', it's much more a matter of 'what would you do'. Realistically, even if the US had all available forces, there are a limited number of actions that it could do in response to this, most of which take some time

ckm: Re: no greater friend eh?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:12:41 EST

Well, the balls the West in general could have are nothing to do with a military intervention. The quickest way to stop Russia would be simply to block all financial transactions by anyone associated with the country.

However, the cost to the Wes

zyxwvutsr: Re: how far will I go?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:43:31 EST

Okay, so your answer is "you think a portion of voters in the Upper Peninsula should be able to nullify the constitutional rights of the minority."

Take your idea to it's logical (though admittedly extreme) conclusion: if a state can vote to secede from

skeptic: Re: how far will I go?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:28:55 EST

If a given region (such as South Ossetia, to use the currently relevant example) secedes from some larger state (such as Georgia) and that secession is accepted by the international community, then everybody living within that new state will undergo a chan

zyxwvutsr: Re: I Don't Know

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:26:35 EST

Is this just some saber rattling to tell the Georgians to butt out, or part of a larger effort by Putin to bring that republic back into the fold? If it's the latter, then "stability" is an unlikely result for the next 5-10 years, and a litt

zyxwvutsr: Re: how far will I go?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:10:35 EST

The 14th amendment requires that all states must give equal protection under the law to all citizens within their jurisdiction
No, the Equal Protection Clause is only part of the 14th Amendment. The first clause says,<

skeptic: Re: how far will I go?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:53:48 EST
Your comment is reasonably relevant and I am going to relent on my previous decision to refrain from replying to any of your comments, although I am also not going to enter into the kind of endless debates that you & I have had previously.
The 14th

uncarved block: I Don't Know

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:31:38 EST
But then again, you and I (hopefully!) don't have access to a ton of info that makes a lot of difference. Was this campaign calculated to take place during the Olympics, in order to dodge media attention? That would indicate a well planned ca

zyxwvutsr: Re: how far will I go?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:15:57 EST

I support the right of 100,000 like-minded people in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to secede from the US and to create their own country if they so desire...
I take it, then, that you want the 14th Amendment to be repealed?

skeptic: French Hawaii

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:39:44 EST
To paraphrase General DeGaulle, vive le Hawaii libre!

skeptic: how far will I go?

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:42:39 EST
Absolutely, I support the right of 100,000 like-minded people in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to secede from the US and to create their own country if they so desire - provided only that they are willing to assume responsibility for their share of the r

skeptic: the Civil War

Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:32:08 EST
I do consider the American Civil War to be a special case, morally speaking, because slavery was intolerable and had to be ended at any cost (although the cost turned out to be extremely high). But if slavery could have been ended by other means, and

zyxwvutsr: Re: Implications

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:46:30 EST

...it's worth more than a shrug
How much more? If the US had shrugged when Kosovo declared independence (not to mention when the sovereign democracy of Serbia was dealing with an internal terrorist group a few years back) the

thefadd: Re: no greater friend eh?

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 18:48:05 EST
It brings up an interesting question of what could/would a modern progressive democracy do if a portion of its population in an area like Hawaii peaceably decided to leave. It's especially appropriate given the reaction already existing against Bush in pla

JimmyHavok: Re: no greater friend eh?

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:46:31 EST
I like the idea. I've been proposing that Hawaii secede from the US and annex itself to France for a long time...ever since I learned abut their 35-hour work week, in fact.

uncarved block: Implications

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:44:32 EST
I seem to recall that "stability" was a big part of the reason the US backed Saddam Hussein back in the 80s. Sometimes sentiments like, "no matter how that stability comes about" have come back to bite the US in the ass, is all I'm sayin', so

T Slothrop: My diary entry

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:23:50 EST
Zyx highlights the point I was trying to get at in my diary entry.
Yes Putin is a first class asshat.
Yes invading a another sovereign nation should be wrong.
Yes South Ossetia is clearly geographically (if evidently not culturally) part of Geor

delete me: Re: The Bear Is On The Rise In Georgia

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:32:44 EST
I'm not saying we should. I'm pointing out that realistically, we can't.

zyxwvutsr: Re: The Bear Is On The Rise In Georgia

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:26:32 EST
Why should we bother to intervene even if we were in a position to do so? The US and Europe benefit from having a stable Georgia no matter how that stability comes about. As long as the oil pipeline is secure, why should I care if it is Russian troops or G

MayorBob: That's all right.

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:00:28 EST
You're one of us now. Scary thought, I know, but true nonetheless.

delete me: Re: I'm wondering how far skeptic's ...

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:59:06 EST
Hey, us Japanese were only freeing Asia from the yokes of Western imperialism.
(Us being Japanese seeing as the country my mother was born in had their asses kicked by the Japanese after they freed us from the yokes of Chinese imperialism.)

MayorBob: I'm wondering how far skeptic's ...

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:53:20 EST
... commitment to the rights of secession actually go. Would he be in favor of 100,000 people of similar ethnic and religious backgrounds announcing they're settling in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan or some desolate stretch of prairie in Wyoming to esta

delete me: Re: The Bear Is On The Rise In Georgia

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:52:23 EST
Thanks to our being at war in two fronts with a military force designed to handle two fronts in case of an emergency, there's no fucking way the USA can intervene in the country of Georgia. Nor do we have the moral high ground to do so, due to how we've tr

delete me: Re: no greater friend eh?

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:44:19 EST
Personally I believe that the world could be a much more peaceful and safer place if the global community, by way of the UN, were to simply accept that by applying the basic concept of democracy, it makes sense that any group of people (of, let us say,

skeptic: Re: no greater friend eh?

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:51:11 EST
Excellent comment, I think you have wrapped the situation up nicely.
I would also like to add that in general, the whole question of exactly how a region of a country can legally secede from another country, and under what circumstances should the world

wetkarma: no greater friend eh?

Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:51:26 EST
Hard news is a bit sketchy, but if the reports are to be believed, Georgia tried to retake S. Ossetia without a contingency plan for dealing with the Russians. I'm not sure whether Russia was expected not to do anything, or if the USA was supposed to come