http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419 <a rel="nofollow" href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/01/29/real_estate/record_drop_in_home_prices/index.htm">Hard economic times have hit the country</a>. Of course, not all areas are affected equally, and some localities have been on the downswing for years, even decades. Some were even circling the drain during the boom times of a few years ago. But until now people were unable rank their particular dystopia to others. That problem has been solved thanks to the investigative reporting of Forbes Magazine, whi en-us Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:10:53 EST Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:43:51 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#67 I noticed that the nearest movie theater to my in-law's house wasn't listed.  Most everything else was, though (all 2.5 miles away).  And the local karate dojo was listed under "schools." Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:43:51 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#66 Interesting. <p> We're about 2 miles from a pizza place that sucks, a hardware store and a post office that has no available PO Boxes.<p> There is an overpriced gas station and a gift shop that put in PO Boxes to handle the overflow, and a liquor store tha Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:54:26 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#65 Central Pennsylvania...about as far away from anything as you can get in central PA.  It's not quite as bad as it seems...since they're equally far from everything, they're also equally close to quite a few larger towns.  They're about a 20 minut Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:44:50 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#64 Wow.  Where do they live? Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:33:46 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#63 For some reason, they're missing the long-time Albertson's grocery store that's a half mile from my house, but they've made sure to include the various newer grocery/convenience stores that are a mile away. At least there's a method for <a rel="nofollow" h Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:07:20 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#62 <i>My sister sent me this fun little tool. You type in your address and it tells you how "walkable" your neighborhood is.</i><p> After my initial euphoria (83 score) wore off, I took a look at the sidebar that details the amenities nearby. I wonder when it Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:36:29 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#61 Someday you'll just have to get them brought back from Devil's Island. Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:00:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#60 My parents score a 0 out of 100.  Not kidding.  They win. Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:19:13 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#59 um, yeah...I knew that.  Pretty funny joke, eh? Thu, 21 Aug 2008 07:04:09 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#58 <p> yup.  It's an 8.  <p> We have very little nearby and a lousy public transit system.<p> 80 would be like a real city with restaurants and shopping, and maybe even a police force.  ;) Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:47:41 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#57 Dude, she wrote "8", not "80". :) Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:01:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#56 I'm guessing quite the opposite.  With my 68, I have several restaurants, a grocery store (albeit an expensive natural version), a drug store, two gyms, and three gas stations/convenience stores, I have it pretty good.  You must have it better. & Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:41:42 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#55 I'm guessing an 8 out of 100 confirms that I do indeed live in the boonies? Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:45:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#54 Not bad...my neighborhood scored a 68. Wed, 20 Aug 2008 18:37:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#53 Nice! My current location is a 74 (although I think it should be better, since we're only a mile from downtown), while the place I am moving to is a 24 (boo) and the house I grew up in is a 23 (boo).  Frankly, I think my family home should have gotten Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:12:38 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#52 Hey, thanks for that link. We moved almost four years ago and apparently gained 52 points. Very cool. Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:54:42 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#51 Mine scored a .45, which still put it in the "worse" category. The odd thing I found about the tool is that it only measured distance from stuff in as the crow flies terms. It measured .59 miles to the nearest food store and I know if I walk the shortest Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:47:20 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#50 <i>Odd, because I walk a few miles to the train station every morning. </i><p> Maybe they discount the score based on your likelihood of getting shot in a drive-by?  In which case, I think that score of 15/100 is spot on.  My house is a 50/100, w Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:46:00 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#49 My sister sent me <a rel="nofollow" href="http://walkscore.com/">this fun little tool</a>. You type in your address and it tells you how "walkable" your neighborhood is. Mine has a score of 15/100 which means a car is a requirement. Odd, because I walk a f Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:35:02 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#48 <i> Inner-city agriculture is a great idea, but it's never going to fly.   </i><p> Oh come on, it's flying already. It's very successful and you probably live by an inner city agriculture operation. Right now.<p> Last summer I found I used to live a f Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:31:10 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#47 I define a bubble market as any market where the average price consistently outpaces inflation, for an extended period of time.  Such trends cannot last, as incomes aren't increasing enough to allow people to afford whatever product is so bubblicious. Wed, 20 Aug 2008 06:59:31 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#46 The premise that health care is the next bubble discounts all the customers about to come on line.  Sure, there might be some overrun in anticipation, but the solid revenue base is there. Wed, 20 Aug 2008 03:57:22 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#45 "Why plant soy beans on it if you can get a million bucks instead? "<p> Because health care is the next bubble - well, that or education, not sure which is going to pop first.  Regardless, I think the exigencies of feeding urban populations are going Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:05:04 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#44 <i>"how long is it going to be before some bright ecopreneur buys up vast swaths of these cities and converts the land back to farmland?"</i><p> We've got huge patches of now-vacant land here in Cleveland, many along Chester Ave., that I wouldn't mind seei Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:22:07 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#43 That sounds like something I did once in SimCity.  Getting the counselors to change the ordinances was surprisingly easy...since I was the city's Dictator!  Bhwahahahahahahah! Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:01:55 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#42 Yeah, but Mayor Daley II here in Chicago doesn't really count.  City government (at least effective city government) is, of necessity, very business friendly.  Daley pays lip-service to progressive, populist concerns, but when the rubber hits the Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:28:49 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#41 Considering the fact that you can buy an entire city block of Detroit for a song, and the fact the price of farm land is going through the roof, driven by biofuel subsidies - how long is it going to be before some bright ecopreneur buys up vast swaths of t Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:13:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#40 I think maybe his point is that when people are actually close enough to Republicans to see them (as in the case of municipal government), they find it very hard to vote for them. Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:28:09 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#39 ...and despite repeating over and over that you mean nothing by the observation, you keep repeating it.<p> People in cities elect Democrats because they prefer its philosophy of government as public service to the Republican's philosophy of government as b Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:26:00 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#38 Most major cities have a Democrat in charge--Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, New York (former Dem, former Rep, now indie), Houston...so I don't see your point. Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:25:35 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#37 <blockquote><i>You want to say something indefensible, and you don't want to try to defend it</i></blockquote>Why should I need to defend a simple fact? The worst cities in the US have governments run by the Democratic Party. Do you deny that? Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:12:54 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#36 Oh, I understand your position perfectly.  You want to say something indefensible, and you don't want to try to defend it.  So you'll keep saying it over and over, while denying that you're saying it. Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:11:40 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#35 Probably, since you can usually buy these 'homes' for a dollar on the auction block. I think a bigger cost would be liability insurance since these areas tend to be sue happy. Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:14:10 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#34 Absolutely. Give me about six months to raise the funds. That should cost what seven or eight whole dollars? Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:08:57 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#33 <blockquote><i>Nope...I'd say your position is very clear</i></blockquote>See, Jimmy? It's not hard to understand. Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:45:17 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#32 <i>-After forty years with no signs of improvement</i><p> <i>-Camden has historically been a stronghold of the Democratic Party.</i><p> <i>-Now, I don't want to conflate correlation with causation, but don't you see a pattern emerging here?</i><p> <i>-Stat Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:25:02 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#31 <blockquote><i>Are you blaming the city governments for the larger trends that are affecting the post-industrial America, or not?</i></blockquote>Refer to comment #27 where I wrote, <i>"State governments deserve some blame for that, but <b>not city governm Mon, 18 Aug 2008 08:39:18 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#30 Are you blaming the city governments for the larger trends that are affecting the post-industrial America, or not?  Make up your mind. Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:56:26 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#29 <blockquote><i>...voters of those cities realize...</i></blockquote>Those voters are obviously educated and wise.<p> <blockquote><i>...therefore they elect Democrats</i></blockquote>After forty years with no signs of improvement I have to admit that I am a Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:01:12 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#28 Have some guts.<p> Anyway, one explanation is that the voters of those cities realize that the Republican "devil take the hindmost" philosophy of economics won't help them when they are in dire straits, and therefore they elect Democrats. Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:27:15 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#27 <blockquote><i>You seem to be blaming local governments for the off-shoring of American manufacturing jobs</i></blockquote>I "seem" to be? Well, I'm not. State governments deserve some blame for that, but not city governments in general. (There are some sp Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:25:49 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#26 It's the workers with their greedy selves not wanting to work for 35 cents an hour like their overseas brethren. Sat, 16 Aug 2008 18:32:15 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#25 You seem to be blaming local governments for the off-shoring of American manufacturing jobs.  Perhaps you are assigning them more power than they actually have?<p> If your thesis,that local Democratic rule is responsible for the failure of these citie Sat, 16 Aug 2008 17:03:00 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#24 All complaining and stories about Friendly Neighborhood Arsonists aside, I think the American Inner City is going to make a come back over the next few years/decades. Fuel is (still) over $4 a gallon, and costs to commute are ridiculous. Americans are gett Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:54:59 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#23 <i>"So far this decade, 115,000 people have left Cleveland"</i><p> I live just outside of Cleveland, and am all too aware that it's been going down the tubes for years.  On the other hand, it still has some great museums, one of the best orchestras pe Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:39:19 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#22 Only because he probably couldn't get elected dog catcher in most cities. Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:35:39 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#21 I wish he was just a mayor. Then maybe our country wouldn't be as screwed up. Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:34:44 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#20 Bush is not a mayor. Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:15:44 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#19 You are correct. We obviously need to trust the GOP with control of the executive and legislative branches at every level. They do such a better job, as we saw during the first term of Bush '43. Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:07:52 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#18 <blockquote><i>No matter which organization it is, single party rule is ALWAYS a bad thing</i></blockquote>No matter which organization? Of the "ten worst cities," <i>nine</i> are run by Democrats, and the tenth, Charleston, WV has been run by a Republican Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:58:32 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#17 As has Buffalo. There is no need for a minority leader on the city council because all 9 members hail from the Dem party. <p> No matter which organization it is, single party rule is ALWAYS a bad thing. Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:53:43 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#16 From Camden, NJ's Wikipedia page:<p> <tt>Camden has historically been a stronghold of the Democratic Party.</tt> Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:28:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#15 There were economic reasons why people left the cities over the past century. That is obvious. However, if you look at the leadership of a lot of these places it leaves much to be desired. It is unlikely that Camden or Buffalo or whatever will reach its ol Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:12:27 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#14 Well if you want to get technical, Buffalo used to be a large city and a pretty influential place back in The Day. Presidents got their start (or <a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McKinley">their ending</a>) in Buffalo. Then due Sat, 16 Aug 2008 08:09:33 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#13 <i> When things aren't going so well, it's always fun to have a contest. </i><p> Isn't that the truth? My parents are always trying to organize their neighborhood for whatever reason. When I make my usual phone calls to them to find out how things are goin Sat, 16 Aug 2008 07:54:19 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#12 <i> But until now people were unable rank their particular dystopia to others. That problem has been solved thanks to the investigative reporting of Forbes Magazine</i><p> When things aren't going so well, it's always fun to have a contest. Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:32:41 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#11 But a very insouciant levity, KEN. Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:12:12 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#10 Levity, MAYOR. It's levity. Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:10:51 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#9 Only I love his work as pieces of art, how the landscapes and the forms fold in on themselves in seemingly neverending series of loops.  I never thought it might be able to do that with dialog on a web site.  And all with an overwhelming sense of Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:08:09 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#8 Bent out of shape? On the contrary; I am endlessly amused by it. Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:57:34 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#7 You seem to be a bit bent out of shape over the response to you there. Oh, well, whadda ya gonna do?   Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:45:36 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#6 <blockquote><i>...even though Philadelphia...have many problems of their own, they're not in danger of dying out altogether</i></blockquote>How can you so cavalierly dismiss the <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/13/151647/9 Fri, 15 Aug 2008 18:32:51 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#5 I hardly think what these places suffer from is continual failure in governance. They're all old north eastern cities. Maybe they ought to be left? Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:47:37 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#4 You cannot annex surrounding areas forever. Or is it leadership? Why not blame the electorate for putting less than qualified people into office? If they elect and then re-elect incompetent or corrupt leaders then who else do the people have to blame for t Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:24:24 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#3 Them too. Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:41:08 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#2 <i>Like just about all these places except maybe Buffalo, Camden is a mid sized (and not large) city.</i><p> Detroit could hardly be called mid-size.  For all its problems, it's one of the top fifteen cities (ranks around 12, give or take) in the US, Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:26:41 EST http://www.treesandthings.com/story/2008/8/14/145115/419#1 One place that frequently makes these lists is Camden, NJ. Like just about all these places except maybe Buffalo, Camden is a mid sized (and not large) city. The root of a lot of its problems then can be traced to back 50-100 years when cities like Los Ang Fri, 15 Aug 2008 16:21:13 EST string http://www.treesandthings.com/search/