Does Crime Pay? (Trees And Things)

skeptic: the compulsory loan

Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:22:50 EST

We do seem to have a new legal entity here, the compulsory loan. Mr. Poveromo didn't think he was lending money to Koch, he thought he was purchasing a renovation, but in fact he was lending money, which due to bankruptcy will not be repaid. Wh

skeptic: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Thu, 25 Sep 2008 09:51:38 EST

As thefadd points out, there is a difference between borrowed money and stolen money. Not all creditors have an equal claim on the money of a given debtor. And although it seems to you that the money was stolen from a group and not from a parti

thefadd: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:37:22 EST

Yes but Poveromo is the only one who Koch has been found to have defrauded--he is the only one who can legally say he's been stolen from. Legitimately filing bankruptcy is not equal to theft by any stretch of the imagination. What the bankruptcy judge foun

arromdee: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Wed, 24 Sep 2008 14:44:10 EST

That is certainly one way to look at it. It's not stolen money, it's just money.

You miss my point. It is stolen money. But it's not stolen from a particular person. It's stolen from the group and has to be distribu

DEMachina: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:26:51 EST

Eh, that's not necessarily true; the law traces the source of money all the time, and not just in criminal cases. Divorce proceedings and secured transactions (which is not the same thing as securities) do this pretty often.

DEMachina: Re: get in line

Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:24:27 EST

If someone owed me 25k, I'd at minimum be using the threat of incarceration.

Be careful here...in some places (I know it's true in my state), criminal prosecution to collect a debt is de facto malicious prosecution.

It's different in the case

skeptic: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:42:17 EST

That is certainly one way to look at it. It's not stolen money, it's just money. However, the fact remains that the only reason why Mr. Poveromo is deemed to owe money to Mr. Koch is that Koch, under court order, had repaid money that he had st

arromdee: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:20:34 EST

Money is fungible. There's no sauch thing as "money which we know was originally stolen from..."; money doesn't have little labels on it saying who it came from. The money was essentially stolen from all the people he owes money to, and has to

skeptic: twinkies

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:30:02 EST

Thanks, that is an informative link. So, the twinkie defense is mythical. Since Dan White received a relatively light sentence based upon his mental illness, I could still suggest that in this particular case, Poveromo might commit murder and p

skeptic: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:09:13 EST

You are taking my comment too literally. Obviously, murder is not now legal. However, it is also true that O.J. Simpson murdered two people and was found not guilty, primarily because of the suggestion that the accusation against Simpson was ra

profwhat: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:59:53 EST

The "twinkie defense" story is largely untrue. Dan White got a light sentence because he was mentally ill (and no, not from eating Twinkies).

thefadd: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:51:13 EST

There was no finding at law in the OJ Simpson criminal murder trial that killing someone is suddenly legal.

wetkarma: get in line

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:29:08 EST

So if I understand whats going on here -- the bankruptcy judge isn't giving the criminal back the businessman's money, he's stating that all creditors should have equal access to the assets of the person declaring bankruptcy.

The 25k Poveromo has to giv

skeptic: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Tue, 23 Sep 2008 09:33:27 EST

So, Poveromo is legally required to repay money to Koch which we know was originally stolen from Poveromo by Koch, due to the bizarre implications of bankruptcy law. But then, American law is increasingly a joke. Under some circumstances, theft

MayorBob: I disagree.

Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:27:02 EST

I don't think the judge made a determination as to whether this was a crime or not. He simply ruled that the timing of Poveromo's criminal complaint looked like it was a ruse to get around the bankruptcy law. There was a crime because a c

thefadd: Re: Does Crime Pay?

Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:05:14 EST

To ask if crime pays is to presuppose this case's conclusions. Rendlen says this wasn't a crime and he's the one whose opinion matters.

Jack Williams, a bankruptcy expert, said the problem lay in bankruptcy law which will give debts owed priority