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The Greatest War + The Greatest Generation = The Greatest War Flicks?

MayorBob.

Posted to Media on Wed Oct 18, 2006 at 11:31:43 PM EST. RSS.

The title question is answered in the affirmative by Associated Press film critic David Germain who uses the week of the release of Clint Eastwood's film about the raising of the US flag on Iwo Jima, Flags Of Our Fathers.  While Germain's vote is still out in terms of whether Eastwood's movie is any good, he offers up a list of what he thinks are the "finest" WWII movies ever made.  Like every list of this sort, the composition of the list - and the underlying premise that WWII movies are the best war movies ever - is highly debatable.

Germain's list contains 12 films covering a range of topics, from combat to prison camp to the Holocaust to life on the homefront.  Two films focus on D Day and the days shortly after: The Longest Day and Saving Private Ryan.  Two films detail life on the home front during the war and recovery after the war.  It includes a "warts and all" look at one of America's military icons, General George S. Patton, Jr..  Three movies center on POW camps and the Holocaust: Bridge On The River Kwai, Stalag 17, and Schindler's List.  Two of the films follow groups of soldiers and sailors locked in combat, the first in the claustrophobic Das Boot and the other with the episodic Big Red One.  Finally, two dramas, one a comedy and another revolving around a court martial make Germain's list: Mister Roberts and The Caine Mutiny.

Okay, enough about what's on the list.  Here's my thoughts on what should be on it.  For a WWII action movie which keeps you on the edge of your seats throughout, if The Guns Of Navarone doesn't make the list, it's not a valid list IMHO.  Thus, out with The Longest Day and in with Guns.  For a WWII POW camp movie, my vote goes to The Great Escape over Stalag 17 everytime.  If I want a WWII comedy, I'd much prefer something along the lines of Kelly's Heroes.  And, if you're looking for a soul-shattering look at the Holocaust, why bother with the dramatized?  I suggest spending around nine hours watching Claude Lanzmann's documentary Shoah.  All of this and somehow try to shoehorn in From Here To Eternity, Casablanca, and The Thin Red Line onto the list, and that's about my reaction to the list.

Of course, all of the above is based upon the premise that WWII flicks are the best flicks of all.  But are they, necessarily?  While these writers named a number of WWII flicks as being among the greatest, they also found greatness in a number of films dealing with other conflicts.  Vietnam has added some great films to any list of great war flicks with notable stuff like Platoon or The Deer Hunter and even some less well-known, yet still great flicks like Hamburger Hill and Go Tell The Spartans.  WWI has at least a few which would make the list: Paths Of Glory, All Quiet On The Western Front, and The Grand Illusion come instantly to mind.  For those who like their war flicks black and comedic, just add apocalyptic and put Dr. Strangelove on the list.

Thus, having said all of that above, what's your take on the matter?  What do you look for in a war flick?  Is it blood and guts, fighting for glory, the dirt and degradation of war, or a moral dilemma drawn up against the flames of combat?  What would be on your list of best WWII movies?  And what would be on your list of best war movies of all time?  Oh, and how will Eastwood's latest film be received?  Well, in the early critic reviews on rottentomatoes.com, Flags Of Our Fathers has garnered a lukewarm 67% rating.

edited by Port1080

Tags: war, film, war movies, World War II (all tags)

This story: 33 comments (6 from subqueue)
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1

Re: The Greatest War + The Greatest Generation = T

port1080.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 01:04:48 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

Perhaps it's a generational thing, but I've generally found Vietnam War movies to be more compelling than World War II movies. No matter how you look at it, it's difficult to argue that we shouldn't have fought WWII. We can argue whether certain tactics were useful or effective, and how much of an affect racism had on the prosecution of the Pacific campaign, but few people would argue that the world would be better off if Hitler had won. This gives a certain optimistic tinge to the movies, no matter how negative they are in general - for all its blood and gore, Saving Private Ryan still comes off as a bit trite and over processed.

At their best, Vietnam movies bring out a more morally complex picture of the costs and ironies of war; we know that there's not going to be a happy ending, so we can't just shrug off the death and destruction as necessary steps to a higher goal. If we view war movies as a didactic tool for enlightening us about the consequences of war, this lesson can only be a good thing, because when entering into war it's impossible to tell if it will end well - it's far better to assume and plan for the worst and then have things go better than expected than to assume the best and be stuck in a disastrous quagmire.

In light of my affirmation of Vietnam movies, I'd like to suggest Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket as two excellent movies which focus on that subject.

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^ 1

Ask the poles

Steve Urkel.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 02:53:50 AM EST

4.00

The only reason WWII doesn't seem morally complex is because it's too painful to think about.  

I thought Full Metal Jacket was hilarious, too over the top to suceed as intended.

Of course I also think Apocalypse Now doesn't have to be read as an anti-war film. Think about it: Kurtz is winning, it's the politicians and desk jockeys back in DC who go weak in the knees, so they decide to send someone to shut him down. I came up with this as a joke, but then one day I discovered Apoc. Now's script was co-written by John Milius.

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Some Have Tried

uncarved block.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 10:01:23 AM EST

none

   When I first saw the title, I thought The Sorrow And The Pity was a joke movie Woody Allen had made up for Annie Hall-- until I finally caught most of it on the International Channel years ago. An amazing film, from what I could tell, and one that I should probably watch all the way through some time. (It isn't the easist flick to catch on TV.)
   I'm unsure that the point of Kurtz is that he was winning or not, but that he'd "gone native", both in Heart Of Darkness and in the film. But then, I've never sat down and watched Apacolypse Now all the way through (seen almost all of it in bits), so I can't be absolutely certain that this reading would hold up.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Some Have Tried

Steve Urkel.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 02:26:41 PM EST

none

I thought Apacolypse Now was great stuff when I first saw it, I tried to watch the directors cut when it came out in 2001(?) and didn't like it all, finding it bombastic and stylistically irritating.  

I've never seen Sorrow and the Pity, I'll try to check it out.

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Re: Some Have Tried

permazorch.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 04:14:37 PM EST

none

Yeah, it's funny, I just rewatched the original version of Apocalypse Now and I have to come out with a preference for the Redux version as better. The 1979 cut is near the top of my "most overrated movies of all time" list. It just fucking crumbles apart at the end.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

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Re: Some Have Tried

tomc.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 10:28:25 PM EST

none

AN is a bit over the top - I think of it as a psychedelic experience.  I just saw the directors cut a couple of weeks ago and prefer it to the original.

One little known war movie is "The Beast", an Israeli production about a Russian tank crew that gets lost in Afghanistan during the Russian occupation.  An awesome film that works on many levels.

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Re: Ask the poles

Thalia.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 06:55:07 PM EST

none

Do tell about the moral complexity of WWII.

Thalia

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Re: Ask the poles

Acefantastik.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 09:19:01 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Do tell about the moral complexity of WWII

I present you with the Finns,  who essentially collaborated with the Nazis in the Continuation War in order to keep Russia from overrunning them.   The UK declared war on (democratic) Finland,  the US did not.  

And that's just one little state fighting (in its mind) for national survival---let's not even get into things like Dresden or Operation Paperclip.

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Re: Ask the poles

Steve Urkel.

Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 02:19:33 PM EST

none

The victory over one evil, totalitarian regime left much of Europe under the control of another evil, totalitarian regime.

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Re: Ask the poles

tomc.

Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 12:58:11 AM EST

4.00 (funny)

How ironical.

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Re: The Greatest War + The Greatest Generation = T

nmiguy.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 09:19:39 AM EST

none

Platoon was a great Vietnam era movie as well.  Good characters make for good movies.  

As far as WWII movies, Saving Private Ryan and The Pianist were quite moving films, but the most important one was Schindler's List.  While not really depicting combat and all that, it captured a sense of the time and the inhumanness of that block in history.  One can only truly appreciate WWII as a battle of good versus evil by understanding just how evil and tortured people really were.  

A good war movie should have memorable scenes that you cannot forget.  SPR had some of the most memorable scenes of all film history.  Whether it was Tom Hanks hands shaking, or a man saving soil in cups, or a sniper in a bell tower, or shooting at an advancing tank while bleeding to death or just walking through acres and acres of white crosses in a cemetary, the gravity of the war is seared into your head.  

25

maybe miniseries shouldn't count, but...

ninjagirl.

Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 08:18:36 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

If miniseries do count, I think that Band of Brothers is just amazing. It's one of those films that I can't stop watching if I catch it playing on the History Channel or HBO. It kicked Saving Private Ryan into the dirt and took its lunch money, imho.

And though the film version just couldn't capture the ferocity of Vonnegut's masterpiece, Slaughterhouse-Five gets points for just being Slaughterhouse-Five (and also for detailing the travesty of Dresden). But my all-time favorite, bar-none WWII film is Sophie's Choice. It's not exclusively about WWII, of course, but I think it really captures how WWII devastated the entire world one person at a time. Meryl Streep and Kevin Kline are phenomenal, and it's a truly haunting picture of both the atrocities of war and the ravages of mental illness.

And who can forget Casablanca? I know it's not a battlefield film, but it's WWII all the way, baby...and it's easily the best film of its kind ever made. It's pulpy, overwrought, and patriotic, yet it's steeped in Bogart's insouciant cynicism...it's romatic and gorgeous and sad and funny, and it has the best supporting cast ever. Plus, Ingrid Bergman was at her most ravishingly radiant.

Maybe it's a girl thing, but when I watch war films I could care less about blood, guts, or glory. What always gets to me is watching the way that through combat boys invariably become wounded, haunted men. Basically, I look to war movies to validate my belief that war sucks. That being said, I really enjoyed Enemy at the Gates. There are huge gaps in my education with regard to WWII, and I always appreciate a film that manages to teach me something while it entertains me. I reallly had no idea that things were so terrible over there in Stalingrad until I saw that film.

(And yeah, I know it's WWI...but A Midnight Clear strikes me as one of the most heartbreaking war films of all time. As a matter of fact, between A Midnight Clear, Johnny Got His Gun, and All Quiet on the Western Front, I'd argue that WWI might be a richer mine for deeply affecting stories than even WWII.)

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^ 25

Re: maybe miniseries shouldn't count, but...

tomc.

Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 03:08:09 AM EST

none

"I'd argue that WWI might be a richer mine for deeply affecting stories than even WWII"

And of course there's Paths of Glory.

EatG definitely had it's moments.

To Have and Have Not was a movie set during WWII.(And so, come to think of it, was The Sound of Music.)

Tora Tora Tora was I think the first American movie that showed a bit of the Japanese perspective.  A film a bit ahead of its time, stylistically.  But still way better than the recent Pearl Harbor.

26

Perhaps it's just me.

erik.

Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 12:10:58 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I hated "Enemy at the Gates."  I liked "Stalingrad" monumentally better.

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^ 26

Not just you.

permazorch.

Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 07:46:23 PM EST

none

Stalingrad has more guts going on for me, too. Enemy at the Gates is just too hollywoodlike for me. I'd guess our ninjagirl komradka just hasn't seen it, yet.
I believe this version of A Midnight Clear is based in WWII.
BTW:
There's a recent miniseries of Stalingrad that I mistook for the mid-1990's version. Apparently, it's a documentary.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

7

Birth of a Nation

profwhat.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 09:46:28 AM EST

4.00

It all started with Birth of a Nation, and if you ask me it may as well have stopped there.  That movie has all the plot elements that have subsequently been copied by modern war movies: elaborate extra-filled battle scenes, climactic confrontations on the battlefield paralleling conflicts in the plot, growth through the experience of war. In a way, once you've seen one massive battle on screen, you have seen them all, and you may as well see the ones in this movie.  If movies were patents, then this thing would be prior art to at least three Mel Gibson films and almost everything John Wayne did.

The racism bothers people, of course.  Watching this movie makes you so aware of the racism that you start wondering if a better word than "racist" might be available; the word seems almost too tame.  (If you haven't seen the movie, the title refers to the "birth" of two nations: the post-Reconstruction US, and the Ku Klux Klan, and the film seems much happier about that second nation being born). But the film's point of view is worse than even that: the film was made from the point of view of the losers in the war.  You are almost made to feel sorry not just that the war occurred, but that the South lost at all.

This is instructive, in its own way.  It makes clear the ways that films are able to manipulate your feelings and serve as propaganda.  The propagandized viewpoint is so outrageous that there's no danger that it will slip under your radar, so its very easy to deconstruct the film and learn how all war movies play tricks on you.

13

Why Not Apocalypse

MayorBob.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 06:29:48 PM EST

4.00

Someone in the queue noted that I hadn't listed Apocalypse Now as an example of a great Vietnam War flick.  So, let me say it, I didn't overlook Apocalypse because I don't consider it to be a great Vietnam War flick.  Essentially, Coppola took Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness and placed the plot in Vietnam.  Not that it's necessarily a bad flick, it just didn't resonate with me and my Vietnam experience.  There was no renegade colonel, deep in the heart of the jungle, just up the Mekong.  There were no assassination teams sent out to take out renegade colonels.  There was no epiphany in the jungle where the colonel or anyone else just chanted "the horror."  Which is why my favorite Vietnam movies tended to be a bit more factually based, like Spartans or Hamburger Hill and I could have gone on with a few others such as We Were Soldiers or The Boys In Company C.
   

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Why Not Apocalypse

keta.

Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 01:28:43 PM EST

none

The same tenets hold true for me when it comes to The Deer Hunter.  There were some great performances, but what rankles is the plot turns on a nihilistic addiction to Russian roulette, and if I remember correctly this form of torture just wasn't done during Vietnam.  So, a question for you, MB.  To your knowledge, was Russian roulette used as a form of torture by any of the fighting factions?

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Re: Why Not Apocalypse

MayorBob.

Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 06:37:51 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Not to my knowledge.  And I never heard of any Russian roulette matches for money being conducted in Saigon.  I will admit to my affection for The Deer Hunter in spite of the totally fictional aspect of the Russian roulette because it seemed to capture almost perfectly the sense of life in one of those Pennsylvania steel towns with the Russian Orthodox weddings and the types of guys who grew up and ended up enlisting or getting drafted with me into the Army of the 60s.  All in all, with its storylines about how shattered some ended up by being in Vietnam, they still held to their sense of loyalty and love of their friends.  The Deer Hunter seemed to be a much more human story than anything I saw in Apocalypse.

I have to believe that Cimino was striving for the metaphorical with the Russian roulette thing, as in the US was playing Russian roulette with its soul by being in Vietnam in the first place, but I have no way of knowing that for sure.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: Why Not Apocalypse

keta.

Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 07:21:40 PM EST

none

Thanks for the comeback, MB.

I get the metaphor thingee, but I find it curious that for you, TDH can use it, but AN cannot.  Personally, I fail to see the difference here.

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Re: Why Not Apocalypse

MayorBob.

Fri Oct 20, 2006 at 08:31:08 PM EST

none

I guess it's a case that in Apocalypse it pretty much was all metaphor.  In The Deer Hunter, if it was metaphor, it didn't totally scuttle what for me was an extremely well done and emotionally satisfying film.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

2

Take SPR, please...

tomc.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 02:18:55 AM EST

none

My current favorite war movie is A Bridge Too Far.

I would remove Saving Private Ryan - too sappy.   The Longest Day did the D-Day landing much better. And if you like graphic war violence, I'd put Black Hawk Down on the list.

Now, does The English Patient count as a war flick?

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^ 2

Re: Take SPR, please...

nmiguy.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 09:22:00 AM EST

none

If you are talking about older WWII movies, I always liked The Dirty Dozen.  Telly Savalas was so creepy, it brought some whole new dimesnion to teh idea of good guys doing dirty deeds.  I don't think he cared about winning the war, he just liked to be allowed to be a deviant.  

3

Nuts!

Steve Urkel.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 02:41:36 AM EST

none

I would add The Dam Busters, based on the true story of the RAF's 617 squadron and the deployment of the boncing bomb; the amusing anti-war film Roi de Couer; and while I wouldn't call it a "war movie" though it takes place during WWII is the underated Empire of the Sun.

Another  movie, of a play you might of heard of, which on one level refers to the experience of the French resistance during WWII is the film version of Waiting for Godot that stars Zero Mostel and Burgess Meredith.

 A nearly perfect movie set in the aftermath of WWII is the classic The Third Man.

9

Re: The Greatest War + The Greatest Generation = T

rombuu.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 10:23:48 AM EST

none

Man, No love for The Dirty Dozen?

10

Lost WWII masterpiece I forgot to mention

Steve Urkel.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 02:17:44 PM EST

none

Lurking in the wings is Lewis' unfinished, unreleased masterpiece "The Day the Clown Cried, a film in which Jerry plays "a Nazi clown who leads children to the gas chamber in a concentration camp."

17

Come and See (Idi i Smotri)

permazorch.

Thu Oct 19, 2006 at 11:39:31 PM EST

none

Come and See
This is the absolute best war movie of all time, bar none, and the best WWII flick as well. I heard the original title was, Kill Hitler. It was made in 1985, when the situation in the USSR was just starting to loosen up. Great pulp. They hate Stalin, but hate Hitler more.

Necessary viewing for every 4th of July until we no longer occupy Iraq.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

24

Not just Europe

gerrymander.

Sun Oct 22, 2006 at 03:44:53 PM EST

none

There's a Chinese film from 2000 titled Devils on the Doorstep which deals with the Japanese occupation of a rural Chinese village during WWII. I cannot recommend this movie highly enough. Impeccably constructed and brilliantly acted, it's the both the darkest and most comedic (in the Greek theater sense of the word) black comedy I've ever seen.

28

Random War Flicks

Acefantastik.

Mon Oct 23, 2006 at 09:38:23 AM EST

none

Lawerence of Arabia, mostly set in WWI, complete with villianous Turks, romantic Arabs, and Sykes-Picot from Faisal's point of view.

Jet Pilot--a lovely Cold war film brought to us by Howard Hughes, John Wayne, and much cooperation from the USAF.  In this thriller,  the Duke convinces a hot female Soviet pilot spy to defect.   This may be the naughtiest John Wayne movie there is, with rampant sexual dialouge. Its also chock full of hilarious stereotypes about commies and Russia.  Another great thing about this movie is that it was mostly shot in 1950, but since Hughes demanded constant revision, the films wasn't released until 1957, by which time all of the fancy aircraft featured in the flight scenes were obselete.  

No Man's Land is a black comedy set in a trench during the Yugoslav wars.  It pretty neatly sends up the war and the uselessness of the UN and NATO at the time.

Tora Tora Tora is a pretty interesting movie, particularly its gallant portrayal of Yamamoto and Nagumo.  Imagine, a documentary style movie portraying an actual event that didn't rely on made up scenes!

Oh, and even though Cowboy Bebob and Steamboy are animation, and more about terrorism and politics than war,  they are totally rad and I highly endorse them.

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