Etcetera

Use Whatever Restroom Your Gender Identity Tells You To Use.

MayorBob.

Posted to Etcetera on Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 05:32:03 AM EST (promoted by Acefantastik). RSS.

Wars are rarely won in one fell swoop.  They must be won battle by battle.  As it is in combat, so it goes in civil rights.  Recently, another battle was won in the battle to gain dignity and civil rights for transgendered people in the Big Apple.  The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA) reached a settlement allowing a transgendered person to use the ladies room where she works.

Helena Stone was born and raised as Henry McGuinness but, some time ago, realized he had a gender identity crisis.  Feeling more like a woman, Henry began dressing as a woman and became calling herself Helena Stone.  Helena never went the extra step to have the surgical procedure performed to turn her from a him to a anatomically correct him.  But, as she puts it "I'm a 24-hour woman ... and I like to wear women's clothes."  The 70-year-old Helena has been an employee of the phone company for 37 years and currently works out of an office in Grand Central Terminal.  Represented by the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund (TLDEF), Stone complained to the New York City Human Rights Commission that her civil rights were being abused by MTA police officers.  She claimed officers on duty at Grand Central subjected her "to repeated arrest, verbal abuse, and physical harassment because she is transgendered."  She alleged she was forced to urinate into a paper cup in her office if she didn't want to risk arrest.  The settlement with the MTA specifies: Stone's legal fees are covered, orders that the MTA arrange transgender sensitivity training for its personnel, and allows all riders to use MTA rest rooms "consistent with their gender expression."

The New York Human Rights Law was amended in 2002 to broaden protection from gender discrimination to include a person's gender identity.  It took almost a year from the broadening of the human rights law for the TLDEF to score its first win (pdf doc) giving the transgendered access to whatever restroom facility was consistent with their gender identity in a settlement with a number of New York restaurants.  Even though the Stone settlement was seen as a victory, it appears the war goes on -- just as it does in New York state, in other states, and on the federal level.  Apparently, word on the changing legal landscape has yet to reach the New York Port Authority.

edited by Ace

Tags: New York City, work, law, gender, transgender, civil rights, edited by Ace, written by MayorBob (all tags)

This story: 21 comments (4 from subqueue)
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4

Similar story in the Italian Parliament

cahironsuir.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 at 09:26:43 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6094782.stm

Seriously, what are some women afraid of? I'm female and I do all the standard park under a light, don't walk alone late at night, etc. But I don't understand why people (presumably women) get upset about a transgendered person in the ladies' room.

I know three transgendered people: two female to male (friends) and one male to female (work colleague). Yeah, it was a little surprising for a second at work the first time I came into a bathroom at the same time as her, but it's the ladies' room. We have stalls. It's a person using a toilet. So what? Do we expect every person born with a penis to be a threat? Just don't make a mess and I'm happy to share the facilities with you, whoever you are and whatever you are wearing.

5

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Re: Similar story in the Italian Parliament

eduardo.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 at 01:17:24 PM EST

none

Dear,

To understand the scope of this issue you must go beyond how it "feels" to share a bathroom with a tranny. This is small potatoes compared to the chaos that this will cause!

First, consider the fact that in any place, bathrooms for women are equipped quite differently from the men's rooms. Women get more stalls, while men usually have much fewer stalls but with urinals in their place. Why is that? It's not because men are happier peening next to other men - it's because our anatomies permit us to piss and be done with it in an efficient manner. We don't even have to undo our belts. Whether you perceive yourself as a man or woman doesn't matter here - the question is, can you make use of a urinal to pee, or not?

There's no problem allowing trannies with men parts into women's rooms - they're just inconveniencing themselves. But there will be issues when "men" with vaginas (or new penises they're not quite adapt at handling yet) decide to use the men's room. Clearly they can't pee at a urinal, so they have to take up a stall just to piss. Meanwhile there're only a few stalls (because it's the MEN's room) so the men who have to take big manly shits now have to wait in line because some dude is wiping his vagina after making tinkle into the toilet. Next thing you know, there're going to be huge lines outside of men's rooms just like there are outside the ladies', and who needs that?

6

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Re: Similar story in the Italian Parliament

eduardo.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 at 01:23:50 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Perhaps the solution is to do away with gender-segregated bathrooms altogether. All current men's rooms will have stalls removed and replaced with additional urinals. This will be known as Urinal Rooms. Next, women's rooms will have additional toiles crammed into them (perhaps you don't need that damn couch in there?) and be known as Toilet Rooms.

Then, everyone regardless of gender can go to the Urinal Room to use the urinal if they can/want to. And everyone can use the Toilet Room if they need to crap or simply they prefer peeing sitting down for whatever reason.

This will have several positive consequences:

  1. The tranny issue goes away, as there's no more gender segregations
  2. Men get more urinals so peeing becomes even more efficient.
  3. Men don't have to smell others' stinky shits while peeing.
  4. Women get disabused of the notion that you have to pretend not to fart or be taking a shit, even while in a stall.

1

Re: Use Whatever Restroom Period.

b2.

Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 02:26:29 PM EST

4.50 (interesting, interesting)

Several years ago when my husband and I were dating, we had some time to kill before we went to see a movie (this was in SF).  We had a drink in a Holiday Inn bar close to the theater and before we left I went to women's restroom.  I was washing my hands and there was a woman next to me putting on her lipstick and I looked at her in the mirror and the first thing that came into my mind was 'Good God what an UGLY woman!'  Then a stall door opened up behind her and another woman came out and it then became apparent to me that weren't women at all (height gave it away as did the shape of the face/chest).  I remember being annoyed, not because there were technically men in the women's room, but because I have been in those lines for the women's room that stretch forever where the men's room is the revolving door - and now they were jumping into 'ours'.  Wonderful.  Sorry, but I get extremely cranky when it comes to the lines and I'm not interested in exacerbating my problem.

(Although to be fair, in college I was in some bar that had those stupid single bathrooms - one for men and one for women.  The women's line was insane.  The men's was nothing and the women were getting madder and madder - finally three of us decided to use the men's and unfortunately, there was this poor guy in there; we told him don't worry, we won't look (wasn't like he had a choice because he was already in the middle of peeing - I remember his back stiffening up when we barged in) and when we let him out, we locked the door.  Guy probably didn't like it but it gets to a point when you gotta go - you gotta go.  I can't duck out in the alley and whip it out.)

I've noticed that when bathrooms are unisex, the issues of the line that piss women off become a little more clear to the men.

If you insist on hanging around only with people you agree with, you're going to find that half your friends are making you sick. - Mick La Salle

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Re: Use Whatever Restroom Period.

eduardo.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 at 01:38:31 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

I've noticed that when bathrooms are unisex, the issues of the line that piss women off become a little more clear to the men.

Oh stop it. First of all, the issues are "clear" anyway, and second, all men have to suffer with the "I am done peeing already but my girlfriend is still in the damn line" situation at least sometimes, so stuff it with the sympathy plea.

Second, we're all human beings, and a "fair" bathroom system gets the most human beings through it as possible in as short an amount of time as possible. This is quite analogous to the scheduling issues in computer science. Here's an example.

Let's say it takes a man a minute to enter a bathroom, piss, wash his hands, and leave. Let's say it takes a woman 5 minutes to do the same. Let's say there's one bathroom only, and it can only be used by one person at a time. Both man and woman arrive at the door at the same time:

Situation 1:
Woman goes first, man goes second.
Woman completes her pee at T+5, man goes in and completes his pee at T+6.
The average time from arrival to completion if (5 + 6) / 2 = 5.5 minutes.

Situation 2:
Man goes first, woman goes second.
Man completes at T+1, woman completes at T+6. Although the last urinator finished at the same time as in situation 1, the average time from arrival to completion is (1 + 6) / 2 = 3.5

The scheduling issues become clearer as there're more and more people in the equation. For example, if there're 5 men and a woman, if the woman goes first,5 people will have to wait over 5 minutes. If the men go before the woman, only one person has to wait 5 minutes.

In general, lacking any other heuristic, the optimal scheduling approach (with respect to throughput) is "shortest job first" so in a unisex situation, fairness would suggest that men who have to pee be "inserted" in the beginning of the queue. However, this could lead to a form of resource 'starvation' for women  if there're more and more men arriving that need to be urinated, so that the women would possibly never get a go.

In order to be NICE TO WOMEN, society has segregated bathrooms by gender instead of using the "shortest job first" approach above. That means that even though you have to contend for resources with other women, who each take 3 minutes to even prepare to pee, at least there're no men in your equation to take priority over you.

So I'd advise you not to pine for the unisex system because the only way to make that system actually work on large scale is to make women wait longer.

8

^ 7

More Potty Arithmetic

Shy Elf.

Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 07:30:01 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Even under your marginal utility metric of total time waited, this becomes more complicated when considering separate urinals and toilets.

Let us assume that the time it takes someone has been using the facilities bears no relationship to how long it will take them to finish.  This is easier to calculate and is actually much closer to my experience than a constant time.  

Let us also assume that people arrive randomly, independently from one another.
Let n=the number of available facilities
Let r =the number of people who finish per minute, and
Let xr=then number who arrive.
Let P(z) be the probability of there being z total people in the restroom and waiting
Then, at equilibrium for a>n,
dP(z)/dt=0=P(z-1)xr+P(z+1)r-P(z)(r+xr)
This is a solved by P(z)=xP(z-1) for all z>n.
For 0<z<=n, the probability is a Possion distribution,
P(z)=cexp(-xn)((xn)^z)/z!.

For x close to 1, the average number of people waiting will be roughly 1/(1-x).  Given b people waiting, the bathroom will on average have an unused slot in an average time
b/(r(1-x)).

Now let's consider separate urinals with variables bu, nu, ru and xu and toilets with bt, nt, rt and xt.

We will assume that the average time for urinals nu/ru is less than that for toilets nt/rt.

Having someone from the urinal line use the toilets instead will save an average amount of total time waited
bunu/((1-xu)ru)-btnu/(ru(1-xt)) which is positive when
bu/(1-xu)>bt/(1-xt).
For equal capacity utilization rates xu for urinals and xt for toilets, or for the alternate case where people appear all at once, we will minimize the total time waited by having someone from the urinal line cut in front of the toilet line and use a toilet whenever the toilet line is shorter (in people, not in time).

But wait, we're not done.  We can divide up the toilet line further into women needing only to urinate and everyone else.  Assuming women needing only to urinate are faster on average than men needing to defecate, we can minimize total time waited by having them go first when taking people from the toilet line.

Gender will generally be readily apparent, while whether the women need to defecate will not.  Assuming that the average time of the women using the toilet is smaller than the average time of the men, because usually the women will usually not need to defecate, and also that the gender of the people waiting in the toilet line is available but the information as to which women need to defecate is not, we can minimize the total time waited by having the women waiting for the toilet always cut ahead of the men.

But wait, we're not done.  Very small children and the disabled will generally take ever more time than the men using the toilet.  We can minimize total time waited by having everybody else cut in front of them.

By now you will have realized that this is actually not a very good metric.  It is in fact much better to have to wait 10 minutes 10 times than to have to wait 0 minutes 9 times and 90 minutes once.  The negative marginal utility of having to wait increases with time, due to increased pain and, if you have people wait long enough, due to increased cleanup costs.

Now to discuss the effects of this law in particular.  Most multiple-story buildings have a particular space designated for restrooms, generally the same space on every floor, next to the stairs.  Very often it is the exact same space, alternating womens' and mens' restrooms every other floor.  Urinals take up much less space than toilets, so that the same number of facilities will take less space, and the restrooms are usually between support columns where the walls cannot be moved easily.  Therefore the method usually used to meet the requirements of this law is to remove some toilets or urinals from the mens' restrooms, while making no modifications to the womens' restrooms, without using the space for anything else.  Therefore, the net utility of this law is usually negative.

Also consider the cases of a military camp or firefighters' barracks or other similar situations where having the exact same number of facilities or more for women will just be wasteful.  Some rule was necessary, but it could have been better written.

9

^ 8

Re: More Potty Arithmetic

Shy Elf.

Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 08:29:55 AM EST

none

Aah, for an edit button

Since the time taken is nu/ru and it ties up 1/nu of the urinals or 1/nt of the toilets, and the average number of people in line before the line clears is bu/(1-xu) or bt(1/xt) the total time saved is
(nu/ru) (1/nu) (bu)/(1-xu) - (nu/ru) (1/nt)(bt)/(1-xt), which is positive for
bu/(nu(1-xu)) > bt/(nt(1-xt))
For the equal capacity utilization xu-xt case or the one time case (as in after a ball game), this is when when bu/nu = bt/nt or the number of people waiting per urinal is equal to the number waiting per toilet.

16

^ 1

Re: Use Whatever Restroom Period.

Shadarr.

Wed Nov 01, 2006 at 05:55:07 PM EST

4.00

Although to be fair, in college I was in some bar that had those stupid single bathrooms - one for men and one for women.  The women's line was insane.  The men's was nothing and the women were getting madder and madder - finally three of us decided to use the men's and unfortunately, there was this poor guy in there; we told him don't worry, we won't look (wasn't like he had a choice because he was already in the middle of peeing - I remember his back stiffening up when we barged in) and when we let him out, we locked the door.  Guy probably didn't like it but it gets to a point when you gotta go - you gotta go.

When you say "single bathroom", do you mean a small room with a single toilet (and perhaps a urinal in the men's to save water)?  And three of you barged in while a guy was using it?  How does this not make you a colossal asshole?  Sure, when there's a big line go ahead and line up for the men's.  That's not the same as walking in on a guy when he's peeing.

Furthermore, the issue here is not about adequate facilities for each gender, it's about one thing only: women are slow.  You could have three times as many toilets in the women's as the men's and the line would still stretch out the door.  And the reason for that is urinals.

The urinal is a brilliant invention. It is not merely designed to be used swiftly and efficiently, but also to encourage that behaviour. There is nothing fun or comfortable about using a urinal. Unlike the carpeted stalls smelling of potpourri, and magazine racks in the ladies room, sometimes the urinal is just one big trough stretching the length of the room, with a drain at one end. And sometimes that drain gets blocked.

What women need is a female version of the urinal. Something with no door, preferably no wall, and a big ol' helping of shame. Maybe just a slightly lower version of The Trough, or maybe something as simple as a bunch of toilets in the middle of a big open room.

Or maybe the whole restroom could be a urinal. This could go for the men's room too, incidentally. You just put a metal grill floor over a waterproof tank and let people do their business wherever there's room. I'd bet it would be even more efficient than The Trough.

--
Bite the hand.

2

^ 1

Potty Parity!

MayorBob.

Sat Oct 28, 2006 at 03:07:34 PM EST

none

This business of the long lines leading to the ladies room, compared to what awaits men is something John Banzhaf III took among his personal crusades back in the 90s.  Since then, most of the new construction arenas and stadiums being constructed allow for a more even ratio of ladies' facilities to men's.  There will likely never be a one for one ratio of men's facilities to women's because of something pointed out in this article -- men can take care of micturation at a urinal, women must have a stall to do any of their business.  And, even though the ratio of square footage is likely the same between men's and women's rooms at arenas and stadiums, the space requirements for urinals is much smaller than the space requirements for toilets.

At any rate, you might say that Banzhaf should be looked at as a hero to women everywhere -- especially those at modern arenas and stadiums.  Others, who oppose some of the other personal crusades he has taken on, have less than positive things to say about him.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

3

^ 1

Re: Use Whatever Restroom Period.

Thalia.

Sun Oct 29, 2006 at 02:21:47 AM EST

none

But won't you be pleased when the Female-to-Male folk get the heck out of your line, and go to the men's room instead?  My solution to long bathroom lines is to develop bladder control.  I'm always boggled by the women who go to the bathroom four times during a play.  Drink less & get better bladder control people!

Thalia

11

^ 3

Re: Use Whatever Restroom Period.

ms sue.

Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 04:35:28 PM EST

none

Drink less & get better bladder control people!

Shilling for Big Pharma now?

10

Re: Use Whatever Restroom Your Gender Identity Tel

stevetherobot.

Mon Oct 30, 2006 at 01:07:08 PM EST

none

I noticed something in a shopping area in Zurich a couple of years ago.  There was one female restroom and what was essentially two male restrooms, one of which only contained urinals.  (I assume the other only contained stalls with toilets).  The female restroom and the male restroom with toilets cost twice as much as the male restroom with urinals.  This meant that it cost women twice as much to urinate as it did a man.

12

You show me yours and I'll show you mine

3fingerspointback.

Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 02:46:06 AM EST

none

It strikes me that the arguments here are very similar to those for and against the wearing of veils by Muslim women in the UK.  The anti-veil argument boils down to anti-veilers demanding that muslim women change their mode of dress to assuage the sense of comfort of the anti-veilers.  The pro-TG arguments are similar--If you're uncomfortable by someone of the opposite sex being around your exposed bits and pieces, then it's your problem for being so uptight, and you are the one who needs to change.  Despite the probable difference in public opinion, the pro-TG group has a more solid argument here, as it's easier for men to look at an exposed woman's face in public than it is for them to look at her vagina over the toilet in a closed women's stall.  But I would be curious to see how many people are consistant enough to both support gender-identity toilets and oppose veils on muslim women.

(is 3fingerspointback)

13

^ 12

Re: You show me yours and I'll show you mine

ms sue.

Tue Oct 31, 2006 at 10:27:01 AM EST

none

The anti-veil argument boils down to anti-veilers demanding that muslim women change their mode of dress to assuage the sense of comfort of the anti-veilers.  The pro-TG arguments are similar--If you're uncomfortable by someone of the opposite sex being around your exposed bits and pieces, then it's your problem for being so uptight, and you are the one who needs to change.

But are they similar? By your own wording, it doesn't appear that way. If the AV'ers want Muslim women to remove the veil in order for the AV'ers to feel more comfortable, then wouldn't the logical analogy be that those same people would be opposed to the TG argument because they would favor their own comfort?

14

^ 13

Re: You show me yours and I'll show you mine

3fingerspointback.

Wed Nov 01, 2006 at 02:07:03 AM EST

none

I find the position of the muslim women similar to the position of the females in the women's rest room.  Both are being asked to tolerate a personal taboo they were raised with in order to accomodate another person.

(is 3fingerspointback)

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^ 14

Re: You show me yours and I'll show you mine

ms sue.

Wed Nov 01, 2006 at 10:18:20 AM EST

none

I find the position of the muslim women similar to the position of the females in the women's rest room.  Both are being asked to tolerate a personal taboo they were raised with in order to accomodate another person.

It won't be the first nor the last time, bitter, but I am totally lost. I can't decipher your position or your analogy based on said position. Maybe a chart would help. :-)

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^ 15

Re: You show me yours and I'll show you mine

3fingerspointback.

Wed Nov 01, 2006 at 07:00:43 PM EST

none

My position is that people should not demand Muslim women to dress in a way that makes those women uncomfortable, and that TG people shouldn't expect the right to acts that make other bathroom users uncomfortable.  A major point of having sex-differentiated restrooms is that it gives people the ability to air out their privates in a manner they feel comfortable with.  For better or for worse, that means "not in front of the opposite sex".

I've had a lot of problems with pro-transgender arguments, because they usually assert that in order for the TG person to function in society, other people are required to 1)  accept on say-so that a person is the gender they say, 2) accept that the gender stereotypes held by that person are valid, and then 3) apply that set of stereotypes to that person.  This toilet discussion is a prime example of that.  Presumably, TG people have spent a couple of formative decades using facilities assigned to their sex, and are not uncomfortable letting go among others of the same sex.  If it's really so hard for them to go, I'd rather just do away with sex-division in bathrooms altogether, and make the issue moot.

(is 3fingerspointback)

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Re: You show me yours and I'll show you mine

cloudofdust.

Thu Nov 02, 2006 at 09:51:25 AM EST

4.00

This is what I don't get about your argument. Helena Stone, dressed in women's clothing, walking into a men's bathroom will make a lot more bathroom users uncomfortable than Helena Stone, dressed in women's clothing, walking into a women's bathroom. By your logic, she should be using the ladies' since that will discomfit the least number of people.

And where did this idea that people have the right to be comfortable at all times come from? It makes me uncomfortable when some guy tries to strike up a conversation while we're standing at the urinals. Do I get a law banning speaking in public restrooms? Can I also get a law against chatting on a cellphone while dropping a deuce? Or do I just grow up and live with the fact that being in a public place means putting up with other people?

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