Politics

No Burqas in the Netherlands

shane.

Posted to Politics on Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 01:33:01 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Following up on the gay kiss and topless girls video the Netherlands government is now trying to ban burqas in public places.  The right-of-center government feels that wearing face coverings in public is a bit of a security concern.  The traditionally permissive Dutch government said that "it plans to draw up legislation that will ban wearing burqas and other Muslim face veils in public".  This security move has been announced by the immigration minister who has previously won the big brother award.

Update - the Christian Democrats rode this issue, among others, to a mixed victory in the Dutch elections held on November 22nd.

Tags: written by Shane, edited by Port1080, dutch, netherlands, islam, muslims, civil rights, burqas (all tags)

This story: 15 comments (3 from subqueue)
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Re: No Burqas in the Netherlands

Toby Flip.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 at 01:03:12 AM EST

5.00

welcome them hate them learn from them teach them taunt them but don't take away their rights.  if a liberal society can't survive dissent then it isn't a liberal society.  If a liberal can only tolerate other liberals then he is not a liberal.  nobody promised it would be easy.

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Re: No Burqas in the Netherlands

Thalia.

Wed Nov 29, 2006 at 01:57:19 AM EST

none

I can tolerate people who are willing to tolerate me.  That does not seem to be the case with a noticeable contingent of Muslims in Holland.  If they're not willing to be tolerant of the dominant culture, why should the dominant culture be tolerant of them?

If the Muslims wearing burquas will tolerate the Dutch people drawing cartoons of Mohammed or making movies that could be considered blasphemous, then they're welcome.  But if they riot when my culture fails to accomodate theirs sufficiently, maybe the current level of accomodation is a bit too high.

Thalia

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Re: No Burqas in the Netherlands

Toby Flip.

Wed Nov 29, 2006 at 02:47:39 AM EST

none

i completely agree with you and your comments here echo my gut reactions to the situation.  but law can be used to protect our freedoms and take them away (sorry for the truism).  this is a clearcut case of the latter and it will help no one to no good end.  surely our modern democratic societies can be both a little more tolerant and a little more creative in their approach to cultural integration.

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Re: No Burqas in the Netherlands

coquito.

Wed Nov 29, 2006 at 08:50:34 AM EST

none

Your comments surprise me Thalia. For someone so schooled in the law, it sounds very much like your approach is a simple tit-for-tat. If they don't like us, we don't like them. What about basic concepts of fairness or freedom or insisting on some kind of universal standard?
I can certainly understand where your upsetness (is that even a word?) comes from, it only your solution that I find questionable. The riots resulting from the cartoons are certainly a problem and should be dealt with. But restricting religious freedoms in response is certainly not likely to get anyone to be more tolerant. I think it can only make the situation more divisive.

Now with caps!

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Re: No Burqas in the Netherlands

Thalia.

Fri Dec 01, 2006 at 08:16:56 PM EST

none

Actually, I think the prohibition on burquas is stupid.  I'm curious what effect it will have.  If I lived in the Netherlands, the temptation to buy a burqua just to wear on the street would be pretty high.

Thalia

1

Freedom of Speech

shatov.

Sun Nov 26, 2006 at 09:58:33 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

This ban infringes on freedom of speech - wearing face coverings is not a good excuse. Consider halloween, clowns, street performers, facial bandages, etc. Should all those be banned too? No, the main reason for this decision, I believe, is that the burqa is becoming a political rather than religious statement - and it is a political statement that the right-of-center government feels is unacceptable.

But, should the government control the public sphere? This is, after all, the Netherlands, whose capital is famous for other displays.[NSFW] To the mainstream of Holland, is prostitution really so much more respectable than Muslim public displays of devotion?

If the government is secular, and wishes to ban burqas in government jobs, including teachers, that is a different matter. But a full public ban? Outrageous discrimination.

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Re: Freedom of Speech

wetkarma.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 at 09:33:51 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)


Consider halloween, clowns, street performers, facial bandages, etc. Should all those be banned too?

Interestingly enough, in many states and towns of the USA the wearing of masks is prohibited. The prohibition is usually selectively enforced (i.e. ignored on halloween) but there are a lot of standing statutes based on an era where people were riding around in white sheets and hoods covering their head. In Virginia for example, its illegal to be over 16 and wear a mask in public. Other places add extra penalties for committing a crime, or intending to commit a crime while wearing a mask.

So bottomline -- plenty of restrictions exist in the good ole USA on people's freedom to cover up their face.


No, the main reason for this decision, I believe, is that the burqa is becoming a political rather than religious statement - and it is a political statement that the right-of-center government feels is unacceptable.

I'd be a bit more nuanced and take a page from the Islamists -- religious statements are political statements. Islam makes no distinction between religion and politics.

You make a solid libertarian argument against the idea of banning burqas. And mostly I'm sympathetic. That said I wouldn't dismiss the public safety and security concerns out of hand. I for one simply don't understand how airport security works
in Islamic countries with the travelling population providing no visual clues as to whether they are a threat.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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A line in the sand

Lou.

Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 08:23:18 PM EST

none

I find myself agreeing with you.  I'll take it a step further as well.  I think what we're seeing is the continued drawing of battle lines between the mideast and Europe/USA.  I have been thinking about this for sometime, but not with any alarm.  Now, with Iran flexing is atomic muscles and civil war in Iraq, I'm not so sure.  Cataclysm anyone?

One point that may need clarification is the use of burqa as political statement.  Western governments are in a tizzy about the wearing of religious clothing, but just like those annoying American fundamentalists who plaster their cars with fish stickers, wear "my boss is a Jewish carpenter" or WWJD t-shirt, there are Muslims who wear their religious accoutrements as statements as well.  What we have here is a toxic mix of one side acting in a paranoid fashion and the othe side (at least the more radical parts) feeding the fire.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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Re: A line in the sand

Thalia.

Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 08:31:50 PM EST

none

The worry, and this has been a worry as long as there have been countries & immigration is that these immigrants are not fitting into the current culture of the country they are joining.  I must admit that I have very little sympathy for the Muslim immigrant to Holland who rages against the evils of liberal society, and yet takes advantage of the benefits of that liberal society by living there.  I have no problem with criticizing your government, and arguing for change, but I can see why liberal Dutch voters have issues with immigrants whose version of "arguing" involves killing and breaking things.

Thalia

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Nicely said

Lou.

Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 08:40:52 PM EST

none

Great points, T.  It reminds me of something Dennis Miller said back when he was relevant...
(paraphrasing)

There's room for you at the table...just keep your feet off and keep passing the gravy.

(/paraphrasing)

And I just had a thought...Any kind of religious fanaticism makes me itch...however while my Christian brethren may wish me in hell, it seems more and more that my Muslim brothers would be just as happy to send me on my way.  There...I said it.  Radical Islam scares me way more than fundamentalist Christianity...that is unless fundies was to try to kill me...then all bets are off.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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Re: A line in the sand

coquito.

Tue Nov 28, 2006 at 09:26:18 AM EST

none

I used to be more sympathetic to this argument, but (at least in the U.S.) I see little threat from this kind of thing. The groups in this country who do the most to try and change its culture are composed of people who are born right here, and who in many ways resemble the main stream. Immigrants, by and large, whether they agree with "out liberal culture" or not, are largely law-abiding citizens who do little to try and overthrow our culture or our laws.

And in any case, I don't see a move like this doing much to make immigrants more able to assimilate. This is not going to seem to them like a way to encourage assimilation, but as a way to make it harder for them to enjoy freedoms that natives have. It's hypocritical and (again, I'm speaking of the U.S., I don't know much about Dutch culture, but similar measures are discussed here and should they pass...) a sign of discrimination, not inclusion.

If liberal Western democracies want to be liberal Western democracies, they should stop imitating the religiously intolerant, restrictive cultures they claim they are so afraid of becoming.

Now with caps!

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