Etcetera

Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

pO157.

Posted to Etcetera on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 05:10:34 PM EST. RSS.

On August 23, a hearing will be held to determine whether a temporary restraining order should be granted to stop "improper communications" from Wal-Mart. These alleged communications have been described as "borderlin[ing] on criminal witness intimidation," which is supposedly being carried out by local store managers.

The crux of the suit is that cashiers were not paid for all hours worked. Wal-Mart vigorously denies these claims. In California, a similar claim prevailed and cost the chain $172M. The hearing centers around the plaintiffs' claim that when they attempted to send opt-in forms to 100,000 Wal-mart employees in Texas their efforts were hampered by local store managers. Lawyers and some employees claim that store managers are calling in cashiers and demanding they sign electronic and handwritten statements claiming that they had never been forced to work unpaid hours. They also claim that recipients of the opt-in packets are asked to surrender them to the store.

The internet and newspapers are replete with groups taking a hard-line against Wal-Mart for various reasons, and many less than complementary news articles are freely available. Of course, WalMart is fighting back. What is your take on this interesting situation?

Tags: written by pO157, Wal-Mart, unpaid overtime, economics, sales, retail (all tags)

This story: 56 comments (7 from subqueue)
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4

Where is a DA when you need one

Thalia.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:49:48 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I'm sorry but forcing employees to come in, and sign an untrue statement that they have not worked overtime under threat of being fired should does sound like criminal intimidation to me.  I hope some ambitious DA (paging Eliott Spitzer) picks up on this and beats WalMart over the head.

Thalia

8

Paid you Wal-Mart tax?

chutney.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:05:31 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

Seems that here in Georgia, Wal-Mart employees' kids on the dole far outnumber the next largest employer---fourteen times more.  In fact, there's one Wal-Mart kid on the dole for every four Wal-Mart employees.  Link.

Making Chutney: Two parts facial hair. One part moxy.

24

^ 8

Re: Paid you Wal-Mart tax?

Steve Urkel.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:10:49 PM EST

none

Yes, Wal-Mart gives jobs to a lot of poor people with children. That's a good thing. What is it you think the people they hire would be doing if they weren't working at Wal-Mart? Investment banking? Practicing medicine?

2

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

MayorBob.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:26:12 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Wal-Mart has been having a bit of bad luck (or perhaps luck doesn't have anything to do with it).  They had to unceremoniously retreat from Germany because German buyers apparently don't particularly believe that "low prices always" amounts to a good deal in the long run.

Then the head of their "Working Families for Wal-Mart", former UN ambassador Andrew Young inserted both feet in his mouth.  Young stated that, not only did Wal-Mart drive smaller competition out of the marketplace, it was a good thing really because all those "Arabs, Koreans, and Jews" had been ripping off his people all along anyway.

Then there's this class action suit.  My take is that, after all is said and done, Wal-Mart will still be the 800 pound gorilla in the marketplace.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum.

10

^ 2

The Ghetto Tax. Ever heard of it?

Steve Urkel.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:53:38 PM EST

1.62 (obnoxious, obnoxious, obnoxious)

Given that no one else wants to and blacks seem incapable of running their own stores it is churlish of Andrew Young to complain about independently owned stores run by the "Arabs, Koreans, and Jews" in black neighborhoods, however Young is correct that Wal-Mart helps black people, both by providing blacks with jobs and selling them products at better prices.

Since effete white liberals claim to care so much for blacks, it behooves them to abandon their gratouitous and largely aesthetic anti-Wal-Mart snobbery.

You said: "They had to unceremoniously retreat from Germany because German buyers apparently don't particularly believe that "low prices always" amounts to a good deal in the long run."

I was under the impression Wal-Mart's lack of German sucess was in large part being undersold by established German discounters? I don't know.

What is more interesting to me is that Wal-Mart's recent failure in Korea was in large part because Wal-Mart stores were too orderly and sterile, lacking the chaotic, open marketplace environment stocky-legged Koreans prefer when shopping for cheap underwear and snacks.

12

^ 10

Re: The Ghetto Tax. Ever heard of it?

gerrymander.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 12:35:22 AM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting)

blacks seem incapable of running their own stores

This appears to me as a bad mischaracterization. There are many black-owned businesses in those neighborhoods. It's just that fewer of them involve involve the high sunk costs and low profit margins which characterize most grocery and consumer staples stores. Black business owners tend to gravitate to storefront businesses with higher stock turnaround and profit margins (restaurants, liquor stores), or with the lower-investment overhead more typical of the service industry.

11

^ 10

Smooth, Gord...smooth

Lou.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 11:39:41 PM EST

none

wow...you are in rare form tonight.

Never change...we love you.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

29

^ 2

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

CaptainLiberal.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:05:51 PM EST

none

Wal-Mart lives on its trucking abilities.  If gas continues to get higher, everyone can quit worrying about Wal-Mart, because they'll crash like a house of cards.  All the power, all the weight they have comes from Sam Wqalton's bright idea of doing his own trucking from his own warehouses.  When that isn't saving them money anymore, they won't be able to keep the low prices, and that's all Wal-Mart has ever had to recommend them.

32

^ 29

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

joshv.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 04:50:17 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Not sure I understand why this effect would not cause other supplier's prices to rise for the same reasons.  If anything, Walmart's control of the entire fleet will allow them to control shipping costs to a greater extent than those who do not have such leverage.

51

^ 32

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

CaptainLiberal.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 06:01:00 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Because Mom and Pop rely on local distributors, who help defray the cost of the gas increases over a dozen hops.  WalMart owns all the hops in the chain, and are having to pay the increases at every level.

When gas is cheap, fleet consolidation makes sense, but when it's not companies that rely on their own fleets take it in the pants if they can't afford to pass the costs on to consumers.  Because the only paradigm under which Wal-Mart makes sense is selling cheap, it can't afford to pass the prices onto its consumers.  Otherwise it becomes just another Target, Costco, etc.  Wal-Mart's practices only work when it has the power to shove everyone around, and that requires massive market share in the cheap consumables market.

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^ 29

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

pO157.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 04:00:18 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

I have a distant relative in WalMart management. He states this is unlikely to happen. I posed the same question to him and he stated that he was recently looking at item prices (what the consumer pays off the shelf) and noted that some items had not increased price in years. I asked what that meant in terms of the increasing fuel and energy costs and he said in all likelihood, WalMart will be much much better off than any other store due to the following facts:

  1. WalMart buys its fuel in bulk, and can squeeze the suppliers to "get a better deal" simply by threatening to take their business elsewhere.

  2. WalMart has its own truck fleet, labor pool, etc and as you mentioned can cut some costs that way.

  3. He said, if all else fails, WalMart would simply go to their product suppliers (and he said they have done this before) and "request" a better deal by demanding a renegotiation of their contracts (See the second half of #1).

What Mom & Pop corner store can do that? Do you think their wholesalers and delivery companies would waive the diesel/gasoline surcharges that are so ubiquitous to shipping companies nowadays?

50

^ 31

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

CaptainLiberal.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 05:55:18 PM EST

5.00

Yes, but Wal-Mart has to be much cheaper than mom and pop, because everyone hates them.  A little cheaper isn't going to do it.  Their prices slip, and suddenly they can't bully their suppliers anymore, and then their prices slip again, ad they start having to close stores, and the municipalities that cut them sweetheart deals start reneging, and their prices slip some more.  Wal-Mart is like a shark.  It can't stop moving.  All those people Wal-Mart screws, they're waiting for it to slip, and they'll fall on it with long knives because there's so much to loot.

Remember when Sears was the end-all, be-all of retail?  When they strode the world like a Colussus?  Neither does anyone else.

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^ 29

Wal-Mart & Gas Prices

cloudofdust.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 08:05:25 AM EST

none

If gas continues to get higher, everyone can quit worrying about Wal-Mart, because they'll crash like a house of cards.

You're right, but not for the reason you think. Higher gas prices are hurting Wal-Mart. The CEO blamed their recent profit decline on two things, the failure in Germany and higher gas prices at home. More money for gas means less money for the (other) things Wal-Mart sells.

There are some who claim that Wal-Mart is getting too expensive for its own employees. Wal-Mart's recent ads, which seem squarely aimed at Target and Whole Foods shoppers, have abandoned the "always low prices" mantra in favor of a more upscale message.

5

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

workerant.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 07:40:55 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, illiterate, interesting)

[offtopic]
I live in a smallish town (Maryville, TN) that's on the outskirts of a biggish town/small city (Knoxville). I subscribe to the local newspaper, which features a daily column of police and court activity. There's a Wal-Mart Stupidcenter about 15 miles north of me, and they're building another Wally World a few miles closer to my house.

Maryville is your typical small town with a decent economy - overall quite safe and quiet. Except around the Wal-Mart. Nearly every day there is an item in the newspaper's police blotter that occurred in or just outside the Wal-Mart: everything from shoplifting arrests to flashers to some lady who had one wheel of her car stolen while she was inside shopping (!)

So, if there are any sociology or criminology students out there itching for a research paper topic, I propose you this:

Is the incidence of crime higher in/immediately around Wal-Marts? It sure seems to be around here, and the Wal-Mart isn't even located in a particularly depressed part of town.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled conversation.
[/offtopic]

19

^ 5

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

Petronius.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:18:21 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant, funny)

While we're at it, can we do a study of the relative incidence of bank robberies in and around federally-chartered financial institutions, as opposed to knitting supply stores.

13

^ 5

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

Steve Urkel.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:25:13 AM EST

4.50 (funny, funny)

Those boys are probably the Every Day Vatos Low Price Locos or the Inasne Wal-Mart Bloods. Or else just regular Crips, as Crips are widely known to enjoy Wal-Mart's value and selection.

15

^ 5

Wal-Mart Crime

cloudofdust.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:15:17 AM EST

none

Is the incidence of crime higher in/immediately around Wal-Marts?

Crooks like target rich environments. It may not be so much that Wal-Mart = crime, as that huge parking lots = crime.

Malls have had this problem for a long time and it's especially bad for employees who have to park farther from the building and arrive early/leave late.

17

^ 5

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

chutney.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:02:35 AM EST

none

If they won't pay for (real) employee health care, then they certainly won't pay for a rent-a-cop security patrol.  Yet another way we pay for Wal-Mart's cheap prices.

Making Chutney: Two parts facial hair. One part moxy.

18

^ 5

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

chutney.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:12:53 AM EST

none

Link

Making Chutney: Two parts facial hair. One part moxy.

26

^ 5

Re: Wal-Mart Workers Want Wage Whitewash Withdrawn

T Slothrop.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:43:19 PM EST

none

Something to consider:

If your Wal-Mart is one of the "Super Centers" and Maryville is anything like the 'burb I call home, then the Wallyworld is likely to be the only thing in town that is open 24 hours. Nothing draws your Everyday Vatos and Low Price Locos like someplace to hang at 4:00 AM.

(Props to Gordo for the funniest thing yet to appear on TnT.)

{Insert amusing quotation here}

14

On the Other Hand

DesdinovaB.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:24:12 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Much has been made of Wal-Mart's tremendous power in the marketplace as a retail seller. While they do some harm to the labor market and their competitors, I think this might ultimately (albeit too slowly) be self-correcting if another problem is addressed.

Possibly because it's less visible, Wal-Mart's power as a buyer in the marketplace is very possibly the more harmful force. In several product categories, it exercises monosony (sole buyer) power - no one else can buy. Tales of vendors going bankrupt from dealing with Wal-mart abound, but so do tales of vendors going bankrupt because they couldn't get a deal.

Wal-Mart moves 20% of all retail products in the country now. That's not just food, clothes, furniture, or whatever. ALL retail. Since they don't compete in every market category, they obviously carry more than 20% in many categories. For many vendors, Wal-Mart is like the guy who owns the only oasis in the desert. He gives you a choice: certainly die of dehydration today, or give him everything you have and probably die of starvation in two weeks.

Fortunately, you have the choice. Choice is good.

(Yes, monosony power is also regulated under Sherman - but monosonies is not as obvious or as common as monopolies.)

23

^ 14

Re: On the Other Hand

Steve Urkel.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:01:17 PM EST

none

"Wal-Mart moves 20% of all retail products in the country now"

If 80% of the market is other than Wal-Mart, it seems an incorrect to label them a monopsony.

Can you name a category (not a brand) of product Wal-Mart approaches being the monopsony buyer of? Because I can't.

43

^ 23

Re: On the Other Hand

Thalia.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 02:50:17 PM EST

none

Apparently, gallon jugs of Vlasic pickles.  Not that I feel any need for such.  

Thalia

44

^ 43

Re: On the Other Hand

Steve Urkel.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 02:57:41 PM EST

none

I love pickles.

Wal-Mart is the largest single purchaser of organic cotton, but I still don't think it's a monopsony buyer of organic cotton, and given the market for non-organic cotton organic cotton is a poor example of a monopsony category to begin with.

45

^ 44

Re: On the Other Hand

Thalia.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 04:06:47 PM EST

none

While they're certainly not a monosopy nationally, they are the only purchasers for quite a few types of products, in quite a few areas throughout the country.  They're also the only retailers of quite a few products in quite a few places.

For example, there are places in the midwest where a non-Walmart purveyor of music on compact disks is more than 200 miles away.

Thalia

46

^ 45

Re: On the Other Hand

Steve Urkel.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 05:04:06 PM EST

3.00 (funny)

"they are the only purchasers for quite a few types of products"

Which ones?

"there are places in the midwest where a non-Walmart purveyor of music on compact disks is more than 200 miles away"

I doubt it, but even so I'm told people in the Midwest know how to buy CD's online. They do it at night after milking the pigs.

1

Wal-Mart Boycott

port1080.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:09:23 PM EST

none

I've pretty much stopped shopping at Wal-Mart sinced I moved to a larger metro area...however when I lived in rural Pennsylvania, they were pretty much the only option in the area (other than a few remaining K-Marts, and it's not like they paid their employees any better). For those of us who have choices - what's everyone's favorite Wal-Mart alternative?

6

^ 1

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

wetkarma.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:28:22 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting)

I'll second Thalia on the Costco plug for whenever I have a need to shop at a warehouse type store. Nothing beats a "return product for cash at any time guarantee". I don't have any particular animus against WalMart, but I don't think their stores want dollars from my demographic.

In my eyes their layout is too cluttered, walking aisles too small/claustrophobic and whenever I'm there I feel like its a stage set for a "Dawn of the Dead" movie.

Then there is the whole corporate culture vibe -- and no I'm not talking about them abusing their workers (couldn't care less) -- which forces/creates immense pressure for certain goods (games/movies/magazines) to be repackaged/edited if it is to be sold in a WalMart store.

Basically I identify WalMart as a place where christian conservatives/republicans too stupid to be democrats like to shop. This might not be fair, it might not even be accurate. But because of that "brand image", I generally stay far far away.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

7

^ 6

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

ms sue.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:40:14 PM EST

5.00

and no I'm not talking about them abusing their workers (couldn't care less)

Why the noninterest?

9

^ 6

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

MayorBob.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:16:34 PM EST

5.00

"I'm not talking about them abusing their workers (couldn't care less)."

So, you couldn't care less what Wal-Mart does to their employees.  Why would that be exactly?  But, you deplore the company's policy of repackaging your favorite games/movies/magazines leaving you no choice as to what to purchase.  Why is this the worse depredation Wal-Mart (or any employer) could practice?

 

Illegitimi non carborundum.

20

^ 9

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

wetkarma.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:03:57 PM EST

2.00


So, you couldn't care less what Wal-Mart does to their employees.  Why would that be exactly?  But, you deplore the company's policy of repackaging your favorite games/movies/magazines leaving you no choice as to what to purchase.  Why is this the worse depredation Wal-Mart (or any employer) could practice?

 

Hi Mayor,
[This response also directed towards Ms. Sue]

I believe in at-will employment. Moreover I have a keen appreciation for what makes a sucky job..usually it involves risk of severe injury/death (coal miner) and not being forced to work extra hours without compensation. At WalMart workers don't have to pee in their pants, worry about inhaling asbestos, or (mostly) losing any digits.

My perspsective is that the line (non-management) people who work at WalMart either made a hash of their lives by dropping out of school, or are trapped in a poverty cycle (single mom/drugs/lack of ambition and imagination) with no upward mobility. Illegal immigrants do better with less than melanin deficient WalMart workers.

I believe that WalMart workers in aggregate are stupid. (Then again I believe people in aggregate are stupid..perhaps the WalMart people are those who drag the high achievers down). Look at this story as a sample example -- allegedly up to 100k WalMart employees are being 'tricked/forced' into working unpaid hours..in America.

I mean really...how dumb do you have to be to work for free? Every single detrimental claim against WalMart makes WalMart look smart/devious and WalMart employees dumb/stupid. I just can't make myself sympathize with people whose basic defense is "I'm too stupid to know my own rights".

Read the so called "WalMart issues" that people are concerned about and tell me that it doesn't come off as WalMart keeps tricking people and thats how they are successful. Frankly I've seen worst indictments of the business practices at Electronic Arts.

Come back to me when Upton Sinclair comes back from the dead and reprises "The Jungle" until then, complaints against WalMart get filed in the /dev/null/liberal_whining folder.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

40

^ 20

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

chutney.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 10:08:36 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

High school drop outs?  All the Wal-Mart employees I know have at least a couple of years of college under their belts.

Do you even know any Wal-Mart employees?

Making Chutney: Two parts facial hair. One part moxy.

25

^ 20

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

Lou.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:12:07 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

I mean really...how dumb do you have to be to work for free?...I just can't make myself sympathize with people whose basic defense is "I'm too stupid to know my own rights".

No doubt, eh?  Not only that, but how stupid is it for people to stay in a low prospects town where all of their friends and family have been living for generations and where all of the mill/factory jobs have gone overseas? (ironically, to make the very same things these walking dead stupid heads are now selling).  I mean, c'mon...didn't these idiots see the coming opportunity boom of the 90s and train up to be sysadmins or IT managers? Even the lowest flea brained drone could see that the mill jobs were leaving and the time was ripe to get in on the ground floor of real-estate finance,  venture start-ups, and property flipping.  And you're complaining about them not knowing their rights?  Laugh!  How could they when they can't even predict simple economic signs?

Fuck 'em, I say.  If they don't like working for Walmart, I'm sure the workhouses are still in operation.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

28

^ 25

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

CaptainLiberal.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:03:39 PM EST

5.00

I know you're trying to be outrageously sarcastic, but considering that I know plenty of hick sysadmins who did exactly what you're talking about, it's not quite so outrageous as you appear to think.  

33

^ 28

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

Lou.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 09:46:19 PM EST

none

While you are of course, right.  I would have to guess that (at least from the people I know) that achieving such a level of employment is nearly akin to getting a big recording contract or getting picked for the NBA.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

35

^ 33

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

wetkarma.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:58:16 PM EST

4.00


I would have to guess that (at least from the people I know) that achieving such a level of employment is nearly akin to getting a big recording contract or getting picked for the NBA.

Hi Lou,
I wasn't going to answer your original post because I thought it was funny, and I figured in my own silly way that people who were interested could find out the facts for themselves.

For you however, I'm willing to offer a helping hand. Federal retraining assistance under the TAA (Trade Adjustment Assistance) has a budget of over $1b per year and covers all workers whose jobs negatively are impacted by trade. i.e. Those who wanted to become sysadmins in the late 80s/90s could do so, and there are quite a few articles from that era on the 'net saying as much. Job retraining was in fact a big focus of the Clinton years as one of the "balances" for NAFTA.

Now I'm not sure how many people get picked for the NBA, but I'm willing to wager that far more people are engaged in retraining paid for by the government, than are employed as players in the NBA.

Feel free to disregard this comment if it significantly modifies your world view; I for one prefer your sarcastic wit over enlightenment.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

36

^ 35

Way ahead of you, brother

Lou.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 11:06:34 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Aye...I remember TAA well.  During the 90s, I was an employment counselor.  I have helped a multitude get beyond their lost shoe shop or mill job and become something their parents wouldn't recognize.  No kidding...there are a bunch of CNAs (as in nursing, not network), IT folks, Class A truck drivers, computer techs, electricians, plumbers, x-ray techs, etc, around thanks to the work my agency (and by extension, me) did to navigate through TAA's sometimes byzantine rules.  I still stand by the NBA reference though cuz these were the small number of folks who could see the metaphorical volcano getting ready to blow, and made the best of a bad situation.  There were many many more who, as the lava rose around their feet said, "whua?"

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

37

^ 36

Re: Way ahead of you, brother

wetkarma.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 04:22:33 AM EST

1.00 (obnoxious)


I still stand by the NBA reference though cuz these were the small number of folks who could see the metaphorical volcano getting ready to blow, and made the best of a bad situation.  There were many many more who, as the lava rose around their feet said, "whua?"

But is this surprising? It plays directly back to my point upthread that these "WalMart people"/losers will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. You more than anyone else should recognize that the government/society can only go so far before people need to try for themselves.

For every 1 person trapped in a trailer park due to bad luck and tragic family circumstance, there is at least 10 others who are there because of their own personal mistakes/fuckups. Why should you/I have sympathy for them?

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

39

^ 37

Re: Way ahead of you, brother

Lou.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 09:58:11 AM EST

4.42 (brilliant, brilliant, brilliant)

For every 1 person trapped in a trailer park due to bad luck and tragic family circumstance, there is at least 10 others who are there because of their own personal mistakes/fuckups. Why should you/I have sympathy for them?

Careful there, friend.  Don't forget, Shadenfreud is circular.  Also, we all live somewhere on the Fuck-up Continuum.  For instance, I'm 45...no kids/family.  I'm a good teacher, but I got here via a squiggly line and the backdoor, thus I have to work twice as hard as someone coming the direct route.  For other people of my age and education, I am fairly well underpaid.  I'm a fat, quirky, neon driving teacher.  To my friends (and fortunately, I am blessed with good friends) they know all that I had to overcome just to get to here.  To someone who doesn't know me, I'm an apartment complex fuck-up: Fat, alone, and under-employed.

So yeah, despite my slagging of "palooka parents" in another thread, I do believe that everyone has the ability to attain a more satisfying life. And yes again, a big part of that depends on their own gumption and determination.  However, none of us lives in a vacuum.  Support, inspiration, guidance, and compassion all go a long way towards making gumption more efficient.  

So why should we have sympathy for them?  For starters, I don't have sympathy for them...I have empathy.  I was once there and if it wasn't for a small, yet powerful group of people having compassion, empathy, and belief for me, I would be  a fat, toothless, low prospects, easily duped Walmart drone.  Why should we have sympathy?  I'll let my old buddy, Ralph answer that:

to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived.  This is to have succeeded!

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 39

Re: Way ahead of you, brother

ms sue.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 01:35:35 PM EST

none

Lou, all I can do technically to applaud you here is to give you a +5 brilliant. But that doesn't even come near to the value I put on your comment for its personal touch and its humanity. Seems so sad that you should even have to state what should be the obvious.

48

^ 39

Re: Way ahead of you, brother

CaptainLiberal.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 05:38:53 PM EST

none

Lou, I replied upthread before I read this, so clearly I'm trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs.  Let me sugest that your experience isn't as uncommon as you may believe.  There's still mobility out there, even though it's likely gotten tougher, but it takes a willingness to get your shit together at some point, no matter how painful that might be.  

We have more in common than I'd have ever guessed, what with being fat, and getting to where we got to via a squiggly line (although I'd describe mine as more sketchy).  I don't think we're that special, though, which is why I had to question your original statement.  

47

^ 33

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

CaptainLiberal.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 05:31:17 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Maybe there's a regional difference.  I've gone through this before on the issue of lock of economic mobility.  Anecdotally, most of the sysadmins I know (and I'm a sysadmin, so I know alot), have either parents who were poor, or grandparents who were.  I kid you not when I use the word hick.  I worked for six years with a bright sysadmin whose parents lived in a trailer in the middle of nowhere Texas, and whose grandparents lived on dirt floors.

Hell, my parents wore flour sack clothing because they couldn't afford anything else, and they leaped to the middle class in a single generation (banker and nurse).

I totally accept that it's not easy, and a bunch of people get off to a harder start, but I just don't buy that people don't have a way to dig themself out of terrible poverty.  My own family, and many of those I know have living relatives who were brutally poor.  I'm not arrogant enough to think that I, my parents, most of my friends, etc. are somehow special or better than everyone else, so it must be doable.

Coming back to the regional difference, I guess it would be handy to know that I'm in the South, Texas in particular.  This country was ripped apart during the dust bowl days, so maybe the bounce back from that creates a different narrative down here.

52

^ 47

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

chutney.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 08:57:22 PM EST

none

We only need so many bankers and nurses.

Making Chutney: Two parts facial hair. One part moxy.

22

^ 20

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

ms sue.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:41:45 PM EST

3.00 (astute, astute)

I believe in at-will employment. Moreover I have a keen appreciation for what makes a sucky job.

"Moreover" indicates a natural transition from one thought to another. Believing in "at-will" employment does not necessarily indicate a total lack of interest in employer abuses that may fall slightly short of disallowing bathroom privileges, getting a lungful of asbestos, or generally keeping digits intact.

I don't doubt that we've come to demonize WalMart to some degree. But when it lives up to such expectations, it should be publicized; when it breaks laws, it should be held accountable.

Your post is shockingly inhumane, as no doubt you intended it to be. But shock value aside, it is so mean-spirited as to make one almost hope that you might have to walk in the shoes of one of these people whom you so blithely dismiss.

27

^ 22

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

wetkarma.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 02:47:41 PM EST

none


I don't doubt that we've come to demonize WalMart to some degree. But when it lives up to such expectations, it should be publicized; when it breaks laws, it should be held accountable.

I don't object to holding companies accountable when they break the law. But there is a difference between breaking the law and oh..not providing employees with health care, or putting smaller stores out of busines, or just simply being a large retailer. [Lets set Maryland's WalMart Health Care law aside for now].

If WalMart is not paying workers for time they spent working, they should pay restitution as well as receive punitive damages. But this is not where we disagree....

My perspective is that if the workers are unwilling to stand up for themselves, then its a waste of my time to espouse/invest any solidarity with them.

Your concept of inhumanity is based on a relative valuation to a norm which would be inclusive of idiots as well as savants. When the face of humanism is represented by orgs like the Humane Society, I'll proudly wear the "inhumane" label, and whatever other personal attacks you care to toss my way.

Your vice is my virture. As to the idea of "walking in the shoes" of people I dismiss..pass. I walk in my own shoes and make my own way. Succeed/Fail I neither need nor want the sympathy of others who think its a tragedy that I can't figure out how to compete in an economic free market society.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

JimmyHavok.

Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 08:29:50 PM EST

none

it is so mean-spirited as to make one almost hope that you might have to walk in the shoes of one of these people whom you so blithely dismiss.

The rightwing ethos is predicated on never thinking about how anyone else feels.

16

^ 6

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

T Slothrop.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:18:55 AM EST

4.66 (brilliant, brilliant)


Basically I identify WalMart as a place where christian conservatives/republicans too stupid to be democrats like to shop. This might not be fair, it might not even be accurate.

You are correct. Your statement is neither fair nor accurate.

{Insert amusing quotation here}

34

^ 16

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

wetkarma.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:40:55 PM EST

3.00 (informative)


You are correct. Your statement is neither fair nor accurate.

Well at least I'm not myself with that brand impression. The LA Times this morning pretty much makes my point for me.

But hey..brand impression is a nebulous thing. Feel free to post your own impression of what the WalMart brand means to you.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

49

^ 34

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

CaptainLiberal.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 05:47:49 PM EST

none

My impression of Wal-Mart, which I occasionally shop at when I need a wide array of cheap crappy stuff, is that's it's populated with people who have a need for cheap, crappy stuff sometimes.  That means a mixture of the poor (including a vast swath of Mexican immigrants, both legal and otherwise), and the middle-class in need of throwaway crap, or just convenience.

You don't always need hand-crafted, gilt-edged, German-engineered stuff.  Sometimes you just need a big plastic trashcan, a package of dominoes, three gallons of primer, and some Barney videos.

Where else are you going to buy all that crap in one place, at the same price?  And none of that stuff is particularly crappy, it's just cheap.  The primer will be Kilz, at two dollars a can cheaper than the Great Orange Beast, the dominoes will be plastic and live for years, and the trashcan will last until I move to my next house and throw it away.  The Barney videos will be, well, Barney videos.

41

^ 6

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

keta.

Fri Aug 25, 2006 at 11:40:26 AM EST

none

I don't have any particular animus against WalMart, but I don't think their stores want dollars from my demographic.

Yes, I'm quite certain Walmart sneers at profit that comes from outside their chosen demographic.  And don't we all shop only at stores we know do want money from our demographic?

I swear, wetkarma, you sometimes make me giggle like a schoolgirl menaced by a tramp.

3

^ 1

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

Thalia.

Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:42:21 PM EST

3.00 (offtopic, interesting, offtopic)

I've never been in a Wal-Mart.  I'm sure there is one around here, but I haven't bothered visiting it.  I've been to K-Mart a few times, but the vacant look in the eyes of the people there scares me.

I go to Costco if I need bulk items, they treat their people pretty well.  For food, it's mostly Trader Joe's.  Again, reasonably well treated employees.

Thalia

21

^ 1

Re: Wal-Mart Boycott

joshv.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 01:33:42 PM EST

none

Not really a Walmart competitor, but my alternative is Costco.  Every year they capture more and more of my spending.  We purchase almost all our meat and bulk food stuffs there, and they have a huge selection of booze.  I've also bought quite a few items of clothing, my car's current set of tires, electronic items (printer, hard drive, software), furniture and carpets.  You can't beat the prices, they have quality products, and they treat their employees well.

The problem is that most of middle america isn't all that interested in some of the higher end products Costco has on offer.  That solid wood chest of drawers with the mahogany finish might be a real steal at $250, but it's going to be far out of the target price range for your average Walmart  customer.

30

^ 21

Ghetto tax=Wal-Mart quality

maml.

Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 03:15:36 PM EST

none

That solid wood chest of drawers with the mahogany finish might be a real steal at $250, but it's going to be far out of the target price range for your average Walmart  customer.

Of course, it's going to last 5 times as long as the press-board dresser that's $100 at WalMart.  Walmart jeans fall apart in under a year...All their durable goods are cut rate.  What poor people have got to realize is that used stuff of good quality is a better use of money than new stuff that sucks.  Of course, it takes time to find a decent used dresser (at least in Seattle, maybe other cities have a less competitive used furniture market), while one trip to Walmart will get you a dresser, you groceries, and some cheapass clothes.

At least the clothes aren't as ugly as that American Apparel shit.

...Dwayne was hoping that he would pay exactly the right amount of attention to Francine's clitoris.

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