Legal

Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One Person To Play The Game

MayorBob.

Posted to Legal on Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 06:29:30 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

At this point it should be recognized that the First Amendment is going to be invoked in cases where states try to erect religious symbols in public places.  Thus, you are not liable to see plaques or monuments with the Ten Commandments etched into them on the courthouse steps.  Why, that business was settled a little over three years ago when then Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court Roy Moore got booted off the court for refusal to remove such a monument he had placed in the Supreme Court building.  Apparently, it's not necessarily a settled matter - especially if those interested in playing the First Amendment card can't find a single interested local person who opposes the monument being where the First Amendment seems to say it doesn't belong.

Welcome to Dixie County, Florida - population around 14,000 mostly white and apparently devoutly Christian residents.  When a local group offered to donate a six ton monument containing the Commandments and have it placed on the County courthouse steps, Dixie County commissioner approved it unanimously.  No sooner was it erected than locals began saying they were willing to wage a legal fight over keeping it there.

One of the first groups to say they were willing to fight to have it removed was the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) a group of atheists and agnostics from Wisconsin.  So far, the search to find anyone among the 14,000 residents of Dixie County to come forth and complain about the monument has been a dry hole.  Even the FFRF admits they "do need at least one local plaintiff" who either lives there or "has regular business with the county" to file a case.  Thus far, according to a courthouse worker most of "the big flak has been people in big cities" rationalizing its existence with "if people practiced it, the world would be a better place."  One of the people who has rushed to the side of Dixie County citizens is ex-Justice Moore himself.  Moore says just as we shouldn't remove "In God We Trust" from the currency or "Under God" from the pledge of allegiance, the monument on the courthouse steps ought not be removed:

"It's about the removal of the acknowledgement of a supreme being, the Judeo-Christian God from which this nation was based, and I say 'No, we can't do that. It's wrong and it's harmful to do that."
Another interested non-Dixie County organization weighing in on this case has been the Thomas More Law Center which offered its services to the county pro bono if it ever makes it into a courtroom.  It doesn't seem like that's going to happen anytime soon as the only local residents to come forward have either expressed outright approval for the monument or a willingness to "support" the FFRF, but not join any official action.  And, if you think the matter might be clear cut, it's good to remember that in the space of one day, the US Supreme Court issued one decision allowing a Ten Commandments monument to stand in a public park in Austin, Texas and another ruling against a similar monument standing inside a Kentucky courthouse.

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Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, First Amendment, Ten Commandments, religion (all tags)
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1

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

rombuu.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 10:42:16 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Well, if it really bothers some of those people, I'm sure there are houses for sale in Dixie County.

2

rock beats scissors

gerrymander.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 11:08:44 AM EST

4.00

Contra the last line of the write-up, this is fairly clear-cut as a matter of law, per the Kentucky ruling; were a case to be filed, the Dixie County courthouse would have to remove the monument.

But here's the thing: as a matter of law, "religious monuments outside courtrooms" is pretty far into the umbra of grey surrounding the bright line in the First Amendment. Passive displays are a far cry from jackbooted thugs hauling off families of the wrong faith in the night. What isn't in an umbra is the legal tradition of standing. Judgements of standing demark a very bright line, and one which is examined (at least cursorily) in every legal suit filed. No standing, no suit, full stop.

If the FFRP is so gung-ho about this issue then one of their members should move to Dixie County, establish legal residency, file a suit and accept the inevitable shitstorm. If they can't find anyone willing to do that, then perhaps the characterization of the monument as "visible, unavoidable and intrusive" is overstating the case.

3

^ 2

Re: rock beats scissors

tomc.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 12:55:22 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

"If the FFRP is so gung-ho about this issue then one of their members should move to Dixie County, establish legal residency, file a suit and accept the inevitable shitstorm."

God knows what they'd find on their front lawn the next day.

12

^ 2

Re: rock beats scissors

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:23:10 PM EST

none

That or the folks in Dixie County are just too efficient in intimidating those that oppose their view points.

I find it frightening that people here accept that the majority rules, and that an intimidated minority has no rights, unless it is willing to put up with the "shit storm."  Maybe they have a business in Dixie County, and are afraid of the boycott?  Maybe they have kids in the schools and are afraid of the harrassment.  Just because the majority considers something acceptable doesn't mean that it meets Constitutional muster.

Thalia

20

^ 12

Re: rock beats scissors

stevetherobot.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:46:17 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

It sounds as if there are at least a few who are too intimidated to complain:

only local residents to come forward have either expressed outright approval for the monument or a willingness to "support" the FFRF, but not join any official action.

I know I wouldn't if a lived in a county with a population of only 14,000.

30

^ 12

Re: rock beats scissors

gerrymander.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 12:25:32 PM EST

none

I find it frightening that people here accept that the majority rules, and that an intimidated minority has no rights, unless it is willing to put up with the "shit storm."

Well, I find it appalling that, after the long history of wars, marches and every other action taken to secure freedom, some people think rights are just sprinkled about like fairy dust.

35

^ 30

Re: rock beats scissors

Thalia.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 06:19:24 AM EST

none

I find it appalling that Christians who claim to believe in Jesus can ignore the part about public demonstrations of belief being a bad idea.  Showing off faith is not something Jesus believed in, or advocated.  Then again, a group that can claim that its religion which advocated loving kindness towards all makes it acceptable to threaten those that oppose the display of its religious symbols... I guess appalling is not quite strong enough a term for it.

Rights are not sprinkled about, they're codified in the Constitution and law.  And you have to respect them, even if the only ones who have those rights are those too weak to enforce them.  

Thalia

37

^ 35

Re: rock beats scissors

gerrymander.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 02:57:26 PM EST

none

Showing off faith is not something Jesus believed in, or advocated.

That's incorrect. Jesus was all for displaying faith, as per Matthew 5:14-16: "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

What He was couselled against was flashy displays of prayer intended for a human audience instead of prayer which properly revered God: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." (Matthew 6:5-6)

39

^ 37

Lay your hands upon the monitor

Lou.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 05:31:43 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

What He was couselled against was flashy displays of prayer intended for a human audience instead of prayer which properly revered God:

I didn't know the devout had such a weak grip on showing off.

Let me help...

Living your life according to Christian way...helping the afflicted, loving thy neighbor, doing unto others:  Displaying faith.

Having a giant dayglo blinking LCD display saying, "YAY!  I LOOOOVE you Jesus...love LOVE LOVE you!  Jesus and Me are TIGHT!  Covering your car with fish decals, "Christians aren't perfect..." bumperstickers, and having WWJD tattooed on your children's genetalia:  Showing Off.

Exaggeration aside, how much do you want to bet that the rock 'o commandments has a plaque on the back listing the "benefactors" of said rock?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

40

^ 37

Re: rock beats scissors

Thalia.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 05:32:22 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Right.  "They may see your GOOD WORKS," not "they may see the monuments you built to demonstrate your piety."  If the Christians were showing their good works (and last I checked that does not include sending death threats to people who advocate the removal of Christian iconography) I wouldn't be complaining.  

Thalia

42

^ 40

Re: rock beats scissors

gerrymander.

Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 11:58:29 AM EST

none

Proclaiming one's faith and devotion is a necessary, but not sufficient, component to doing good works. (Which makes sense, from a human perspective. Christians talk about a "love of Christ" and "a relationship with God." Well, what do people think of those who buy gifts but never say "I love you"? Or conversely, those who always proclaim their love but never remember a birthday?)

I agree about the death threats part.

43

^ 42

Re: rock beats scissors

Thalia.

Fri Jan 12, 2007 at 02:31:14 PM EST

none

But if you read Jesus' sayings that's exactly what he is complaining about.  People who spend all their time proclaiming their faith & devotion, instead of doing good works.

Thalia

4

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

lovehate.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 01:10:02 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Regardless of the legal standing of the monument, if no one cares -- to be simple-minded about it -- who cares?

10

^ 4

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:17:59 PM EST

3.00 (funny)

Golly yes.  I mean if all of the citizens in the county approve of the lynching then there isn't anything wrong with it, right?  The Constitution only applies in counties where the citizens support it.  If your county prefers not to have free speech, they why should you.

Thalia

13

^ 10

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

profwhat.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:28:07 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

There may be some distinctions between lynching and a display of the Ten Commandments that make your analogy not very persuasive here.

18

^ 13

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:35:10 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

The statement to which I was replying strongly implied that constitutional guarantees do not apply in places where the citizenry does not object to their absence.  I grant that the analogy wasn't the best, but it addressed where this type of argument leads.

Thalia

15

^ 13

I wish I was in Dixie AWAY AWAY

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:32:04 PM EST

3.50 (funny)

For the moment, but it's only a matter of time before they start using the six ton monument to crush nonbelievers, making that analogy quite prescient. I've actually sent them an email sugessting this.

25

^ 15

Two birds...one stone

Lou.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 10:19:30 PM EST

4.00

What the hell, Gordon...why not just drop that rock on gay athiests...that'll squeeze the gay bug right out of them.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

24

^ 10

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

lovehate.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 07:13:03 PM EST

none

There are plenty of counties that have laws, rules, mores, etc. that are of questionable constitutional standing but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should all be immediately challenged in court.  At such time that someone moves in who feels strongly enough that the monument should be removed, they are more than welcome to launch a challenge.  Similarly, if someplace were to codify lynchings in local law, I don't think it would be too long before someone took serious exception and called the ACLU.

26

^ 24

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

Thalia.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 03:05:58 AM EST

5.00 (astute, informative, astute)

Repeat after me:  You do not have to be brave to be guaranteed your Constitutional rights.  You do not have to be willing to put up with abuse.  It helps if you are strong enough to deal with it, but it is not, nor should it be, a prerequisite.

Thalia

21

old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:53:14 PM EST

3.00 (informative)

The 1st amendment was meant to apply to the federal government. The state Constituion of Flordia observes:

"We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, in order to secure its benefits, perfect our government, insure domestic tranquility, maintain public order, and guarantee equal civil and political rights to all, do ordain and establish this constitution."

Since Florida's constitutional order derives from God, they have every right to this monumental six-ton erection. Ipso facto delecto.  

27

^ 21

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

profwhat.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 07:32:26 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

The Florida constitution also contains this:

SECTION 3.  Religious freedom.--There shall be no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting or penalizing the free exercise thereof. Religious freedom shall not justify practices inconsistent with public morals, peace or safety. No revenue of the state or any political subdivision or agency thereof shall ever be taken from the public treasury directly or indirectly in aid of any church, sect, or religious denomination or in aid of any sectarian institution.
This is even more specific than the First Amendment as far as "don't spend taxpayer money on religion," don't you think?

31

^ 27

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Steve Urkel.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 03:33:30 PM EST

1.66 (brilliant, interesting)

How is a display of the ten commandments an "establishment of religion"?

Moses holding the Ten Commandments is depected on the exterior of the Supreme Court. As one former Chief Justice put it:

"Representations of the Ten Commandments adorn the metal gates lining  the north and south sides of the Courtroom as well as the doors leading into the Courtroom. Moses also sits on the exterior east facade of the building holding the Ten Commandments tablets."

This isn't an establishment of religion, it's merely a reflection of what  signer of the Constituion and later Chief Justice James Wilson observed:

"Law, natural or revealed, made for men or for nations, flows from the same Divine source: it is the law of God... Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine... Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."

Indeed.
 

23

^ 21

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 06:59:24 PM EST

none

Unsurprisingly the Courts disagree with you.  But don't let reality interrupt your daydreams.  See the 14th Amendment, and the legislative discussions around it, and of course Gitlow v. New York.

Thalia

32

^ 23

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Steve Urkel.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 03:37:26 PM EST

1.00 (astute)

Courts disagree? Explain Van Orden v. Perry.

34

^ 32

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Thalia.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 06:16:54 AM EST

none

Read the case, and while you're at it, read its companion case McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky.  The Court very clearly said that the manner of display among "22 acres containing 17 monuments and 21 historical markers commemorating the "people, ideals, and events that compose Texan identity" this was simply one of many monuments.  That is quite different from having the 10 Commandments displayed on the courthouse steps.  The display in Dixie County is much closer to the mcCreary display, which was held unconstitutional.

Thalia

36

^ 34

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 02:22:16 PM EST

1.00 (brilliant)

The Court very clearly said that the manner of display among "22 acres containing 17 monuments and 21 historical markers commemorating the "people, ideals, and events that compose Texan identity"

So all they need to do is add some other monuments and makers commerating the people, ideals, and events that compose Floridianian identity. Put up 10 ton statue of Bobby Bow on one side of it. Slap up a three ton statue of a glass of Florida Orange Juice on the other side. Float a giant inflatable gator over the roof of the Courthouse.

38

^ 36

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

ms sue.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 04:32:41 PM EST

none

Too bad this listing ended.

41

^ 36

Re: old times there not forgotten LOOK AWAY!

Thalia.

Mon Jan 08, 2007 at 05:37:11 PM EST

none

The Court was looking at intent.  Guess what, you'd still lose if you "slap" some hide-that-religion crap around it.  As I said, the Courts disagree with you regarding the applicability of the First Amendment to the states (which was your original contention you may recall), and do believe that expressly religious declarations of faith have no place in government offices.  And if you do not believe that a statement that starts with "Have no gods before me" is not a religious statement, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you, cheap.

That's lucky for those of us who think that the Constitution has no relationship to the Ten Commandments.  I think the only overlap is... no, there isn't one.  Not even "do not murder/steal" since specific crimes are not ennumerated in the Constitution.

Thalia

5

What About School Prayer?

MayorBob.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 01:28:10 PM EST

none

Something I wondered about here.  Could the good citizens of Dixie County establish a daily reading of the Lord's Prayer to kick off the school day in the public schools?  I know that SCOTUS ruled that prayer in public school is a no no.  But, if the citizens of Dixie County are blase about an ugly monument of the Ten Commandments cluttering up their courthouse steps, why wouldn't they be likewise blase about having a good, old-fashioned opening prayer.  If there's no resident of Dixie County who is willing to file a suit, would the FFRF be in a similar boat to the canoe they're in with this case?

Illegitimi non carborundum.

6

^ 5

Re: What About School Prayer?

ms sue.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 02:41:43 PM EST

none

I was thinking along that same line. Can court decisions be effectively ignored if it's the will of every person?

7

^ 6

Re: What About School Prayer?

rombuu.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 02:45:33 PM EST

none

God, I'd hope so.  "Sorry guys, we know you all don't like it, but we all have to turn ourselves into the slaughterhouse just like that judge said".

Heck, look at jury nullification for something similar.

8

^ 5

Re: What About School Prayer?

gerrymander.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 03:30:24 PM EST

none

If there's no resident of Dixie County who is willing to file a suit, would the FFRF be in a similar boat to the canoe they're in with this case?

If the school's mandate was completely within Dixie County (subsidized only by local government authority, no out-of-county students, etc.), then yes.

9

^ 8

Re: What About School Prayer?

ms sue.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:07:01 PM EST

none

I'm not sure I understand what a school has to do with this issue.

29

^ 9

Re: What About School Prayer?

gerrymander.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 11:51:23 AM EST

none

ms_ sue, I'm just keeping with the original question: "Could the good citizens of Dixie County establish a daily reading of the Lord's Prayer to kick off the school day in the public schools?"

33

^ 29

Re: What About School Prayer?

ms sue.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 03:40:29 PM EST

none

So you were. My apology. I had read your "new"post without connecting it to its parent post.

11

^ 5

Re: What About School Prayer?

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:20:23 PM EST

none

The "good" citizens of Dixie County can do whatever the heck they want to.  And if they manage to intimidate the opponents of their little excursion sufficiently, they get to keep it too.  Standing is a pretty brightline rule.  The only way you could challenge it is for a non-resident to be party to a lawsuit in Dixie County, and bring suit.  After all, they don't have to live in the county to encounter this lovely monument to tolerance and religious diversity.

Thalia

14

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:32:00 PM EST

none

From the subQ comments:  If you feel the religious are persecuting you by having their values proclaimed, then take up the case.  Make a stand.  Thalia, your comment is without merit.  It slams the religious people of Dixie county who have done nothing.  If a community has collective values, outsiders really don't have thr right in the US to force them to change them.  As long as that "public property" is property of Dixie county, then Dixie county citizens have their say in the matter.  

How would you feel if the 14,000 residents took up a vote to allow the 10 commandments?  Would that be satisfactory?   - nmiguy

If a community's collective values do not meet the constitutional standards for what is acceptable behavior in the United States, we absolutely do have the right, and duty, to force them to change.  If a county still believes that slavery is acceptable, believes that discrimination against people of a different faith is acceptable, believes that the police can search a home without a warrant, or that free speech, the free press, or freedom of assembly doesn't apply, it doesn't make a difference in the world.  The Constitution guarantees certain rights to people, even if they don't want them, or more precisely don't want their neighbors to have them.  

Thalia

17

^ 14

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:34:24 PM EST

none

Tell that to all the left-wing gun grabbers.

16

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

Thalia.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:33:54 PM EST

none

One more comment:  The summary is incorrect regarding needing a resident of Dixie County for standing.  They simply need someone who has encountered the monument and objects to it.  It could be a visiting attorney who transacts business in the Dixie County court house, or even a tourist who was uncomfortable with the monument.

Thalia

19

^ 16

Re: Eleventh Commandment - You Need At Least One P

MayorBob.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 04:38:04 PM EST

none

The summary was provided in the press release from the FFRF which stated they need a resident or someone who has business with the county.  I would hazard a guess that if a person with standing is as loosely defined as a tourist or someone hitchhiking through Dixie County, the FFRF would already have filed an actual suit.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

22

^ 19

early on a frosty morning - LOOK AWAY!

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jan 05, 2007 at 06:57:52 PM EST

none

A tourist? Forget about people fearing ridicule and persecution if they come forward and admit being athiests, imagine the ridicule from admitting you went to Dixie County for a vacation?

28

^ 22

What I Did On Summer Vacation.

MayorBob.

Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 11:31:06 AM EST

none

Yeah, I doubt that you'll find many people featuring pictures of Dixie County in the slideshows of their travels -- "Here's a picture of the Sistine Chapel and this is the Mona Lisa and this is the Eiffel Tower and this one is the main sty in Bubba Gump's pig farm in Dixie."  You also have to wonder what sort of brokeass, ambulance chaser would actually come into Dixie County to represent a client.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Roy Moore got booted off the court
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