Legal

Microstamping passes in California

pO157.

Posted to Legal on Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 07:41:23 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

A controversial new tool in the fight against gun violence in California. The new law mandates that all semiautomatic handguns purchased in the state after 2010 have the ability to "stamp" an ID number on shell casings during firing.  

Assembly Bill 1471 requires handguns sold in the state after 2010 to place a microscopic code on ejected shell casings during the firing process. These spent shells would be retrieved by police and would allow investigators to track down the registered owner and learn important information about the firearm.

Proponents state that 45% of all homicides in California remain unsolved, and 60% of these are committed with semi-automatic pistols. Therefore, having spent shells engraved with information about the pistol, and the owner, can only help the investigation.

Opponents of the bill cite cost, saying it would run as much as $200 to retool an automatic to have the microstamping ability. Supporters say the cost is artificially high, and that the stamping feature could be added for as little as $2. Others complain that the stamping function would probably wear down over time and be ineffective. Brian Normandy, a former police officer and Department of Defense officer questioned this, "After 300 or 400 rounds of practice, is the microstamping going to wear out?"

This law was supported by gun-control advocates such as the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence as well as police and civic organizations in California. They supported the bill as it would supposedly remove armed criminals and gang members from the streets. Its opposition was lead by the National Rifle Association, who claim the technology is unworkable and could lead to criminals "seeding" a crime scene with red herrings.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, Brady Campaign, National Rifle Association, Handgun, California, Law (all tags)

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9

Re: Microstamping passes in California

DEMachina.

Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 03:04:10 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Most of my concerns with this are practical ones.

1.  How much will this just limit the sale of guns in California?  The last gun show I went to, a large portion of the handguns on any given table had big "illegal in California" stickers on the box.  So it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of manufacturers refused to retool their factories (forget retooling the guns, such a drasting change of the manufacturing process is the real cost).  I suppose that wouldn't be such a bad thing from the point of view of those who want to totally outlaw gun ownership.

I think at most companies would make guns that do this and guns that don't.  Then you have the problem of importation; and it could make the registration process even more cumbersome (you'd have to get someone with at least some training to sign off on the gun being the right version or whatever).

  1.  What's to stop illegal post-purchase modification?  If someone can etch off a serial number, I can't imagine it'd be that hard to get rid of this one too.  The stamping piece has to be exposed in order to hit the casing (unless you want to turn the gun into a total black box, which no one would buy, since there'd be no way to clean the thing), so how hard could it be to remove?

  2.  The seeding thing is a legitimate point.  What's to stop someone from picking up spent brass from a firing range (and that would not be difficult to do, believe me) and then dropping a few after shooting someone?  It'd take a matter of seconds.

I'm not against this idea in principle, but I don't think this is the right way to go about it.  What I think we should do is require gun manufacturers to measure the striations on the test fire casing, then attach that to the serial number.  Stick all that in one bigass database, and any time the police find a shell casing they can run it, find the serial number to the weapon, then know where it went from there (the manufacturer will know where they sent it, the dealer will know whom they sold it to, etc.).  The only other problem with this, come to think of it, is records.  In Virginia, for example, the police by law can only keep sales records for a year.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

18

Re: Microstamping passes in California

telizotte.

Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:05:47 PM EST

5.00 (informative, informative, interesting)

Hello my name is Todd Lizotte and I am the co-inventor of microstamping.

I am bias, but I figured I could give some insight into the technology.

First, the technique is simple.  A firearm currently has small microstructures which are formed onto the interior surfaces of the firearm that come in contact with the cartridge, when the firearm is discharged.  We call these unintentional microstructures, since they are randomly formed when the surfaces of the firearm are machined during the manufacture of the firearm.

These random marks are what transfer to the cartridges and form the basis of the science of forensic firearm identification, which is the science of matching these scratches and dings from evidence to the firearm once the firearm is recovered.

Microstamping identifies these surfaces within the firearm and adds to them by means of a simple laser process, intentional microstructures that take the form of numbers and letters to form an 8 digit code.

The idea behind microstamp is to use the same forces that produce the unintentional marks, so that the status quo is maintained, no new mechanisms are needed, we just use the forces and surfaces that current produce marking onto the cartridge.

The cost is minimal, ranging from between 25 cents and $3, depending on volume.

The key benefit of the technology is that a majority of firearm crimes, nearly 45% in California are never solved and the firearm is never recovered.

Microstamping would allow the firearm to be identified even if the firearm is not recovered.

Law enforcement uses trace data like microstamping to pin point crime gun sources, which are either stolen firearms or straw purchased firearms.  The shorter the time between the first time the firearm is sold and the time it is identified is important data to map patterns of trafficking, to target firearm trafficking networks.

Microstamping if definitely an investment towards the future, providing firearm trafficking data within a shorter time frame, since microstamping identifies the firearm the first time it is used, instead of when it is first recovered.  Figuring the cost per firearm is about a one time cost of about a couple cups of coffee at the worst case scenario.

Firearm trafficking becomes vulnerable to new data analysis techniques such as, Pattern and Link analysis as well as social network analysis, but only when the analysis of the data can form into patterns within a "narrower window of time".

Another argument I have seen is that microstamping could create a deterrent and shift criminals from semi-auto handguns to revolvers.  In essence this would mean a shift or reduction of a criminal's effective firepower.

Plainly speaking firepower is the amount of damage you can cause within a given time frame. However, effective firepower is a combination of variables including the type of firearm, the ammunition, and most importantly the gun handling skill of the shooter.

Firing a revolver accurately takes more skill than a semi-auto handgun.  And when you have no skill at all in firing, odds are you are going to be limited in the damage you can cause.
Another point is revolvers are "dual action"; the criminal has to pull the trigger fully for each round fired where as semi-auto are typically single action firearms.

Most drive by shootings cause death by the fact that a hail of bullets is fired randomly within seconds and reloading is easy by exchanging a magazine.

What is good about microstamping is that AB1471 targets the growing use of semi-automatic handguns used to commit crimes.  Microstamping makes sense for that segment and if it creates a shift to revolvers, knives or baseball bats, that shift will at least give potential victims a fighting chance or possibly limit the chance of innocent people becoming victims of stray bullets.

MICROSTAMPING: PLANTED CARTRIDGE THEORY

Forensic investigators use crime scene reconstruction methods to analyze various patterns; scene evidence and projectile trajectories are used to track back to the firing location and to match projectile location to cartridge location, i.e. cartridge ejection patterns.  Projectile locations have a specific location and an angular trajectory (They can show movement of the shooter, angle and elevation of the firearm), so it is possible to match the two patterns.

In an exchange of gun fire; the criminal is firing the handgun and potentially moving at the same time.  These actions are mirrored in the pattern of the cartridge casings being ejected.  If the person then randomly drops or plants cartridges, those dropped cartridges would not follow the pattern that occurred during the actual action.  

A common criminal who commits a murder or engages in a fire fight, is not going to be in the right frame of mind to take into consideration these types of ideas.  Fight or flight response takes over.  

The other big issue with the dropped/planted cartridge scenario is that the physical evidence is analyzed; powder or gun shot residue (its type, age, and oxidation), oxidation of the cartridges themselves (fresh versus old), finger-prints on the cartridges, odd things (cartridge with pocket lint, dirt, fingerprints, odd primers, reload status) and the standard ballistic markings on the projectile (ejector marks, extractor marks, firing pin marks).  Most forensic professional tend to laugh at these ideas.  People who comment on these scenarios figure highly trained forensic examiners can't tell a freshly fired cartridge from one that has been sitting on a firing range for a few weeks or months.

This scenario also requires that the criminal can locate a firing range, find the right caliber cartridge of the same vintage, make, fired from the same firearm that they own.
If the criminal reloads, they will need to use a similar powder and projectile consistent with that ammo and the same primer.  This is a tall order for the common criminal who truly cares less about these issues, since in their mind they will never get caught.

The planted cartridge scenario is not realistic for nearly all gang or moment of opportunity based heinous acts or crimes.

Another point is that planted cartridges have a history and by planting them at a crime scene the criminal is just leaving more leads to follow.  Maybe those planted cartridges will lead to the place where the cartridges were taken, maybe that range has video taping system (most do these days for liability), or requires people to show drivers license and sign a form to enter the range area.

By planting cartridges at the crime scene the criminal is providing further opportunities to recover good finger prints and law enforcement can use other data and network information to track the person down since most people who commit these types of crimes tend to have extensive police records and have fingerprints on file.

The fact is that planting cartridges is an interesting theory, but in reality, it doesn't happen now and modern forensic crime scene investigation methods are more than capable of overcoming this type of TV based scenario.

IMPACT TO LAW ABIDING CITIZEN:

Microstamping is a passive device, where no registry and no bureaucracy are required.  It uses the same trace system that law enforcement currently uses today and all of the info is held by the firearms industry.  There is no change to the legal owner's liability or responsibility. If you have a gun stolen, with or without microstamping and it is subsequently found at a crime scene, it doesn't matter; you are getting a knock at your door.

As a supporter of law enforcement, NRA member and 2nd Amendment proponent, I view this as the most benign technology possible, providing law enforcement with a new tool, while maintaining firearm owner rights.

Also the technology for commercial markets of semiautomatic handguns will be provided in a royalty free license to the firearm industry.

Hope this helps people to understand our position.

Sincerely,
Todd Lizotte
Co-inventor of Microstamping

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Re: Microstamping passes in California

pO157.

Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 07:00:02 AM EST

none

Mr. Lizotte,

Thanks for taking the time to register and post here. I appreciate your informative discussion of the issue. We need more inventive proposals to reduce gun crime in this country these days.

Quick question based on your post above (and I am sure other users will chime in once they read your message):

If the 'unintentional microstructures' are so useful, how come the databases have not been built completely around them? Don't some states currently require the mailing of a cartridge to the police after the sale by the gun shop or manufacturer?

Thanks!

20

^ 18

Re: Microstamping passes in California

3fingerspointback.

Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 03:45:19 AM EST

none

Thanks for the overview of microstamping.  I'm just curious about a couple of points:

  1.  Is it possible for a user to modify an existing microstamp to smudge or change digits, e.g. a 'C' into a 'O', etc.?

  2.  How long does a microstamp remain legible?  Can a gun that is frequently taken to the range end up with a garbled code after a year of heavy use?

(is 3fingerspointback)

13

Microstamp this

Lou.

Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 07:53:04 AM EST

3.00 (interesting)

Could this be the time for a new (old, really) kind of weapon?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

1

Hmm...

pO157.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 12:15:03 PM EST

none

I am sure the assemblymen, governor and those activist groups all have the best intentions in this case. However, I am not sure this is a good, workable idea. As somebody who does not own a gun, and knows little about the subject I already can think of a few reasons why this is a useless plan.

-Ejected brass can be traced back to its owner because of the stamping. Fine, but why wouldn't criminals switch to revolvers if they want an untraceable firearm? They do not eject brass if I recall correctly.
-Gun-control groups are afraid of private owners having firearms, because 'they will get stolen' and go on the street. If this scenario is so common, what prevents evil-doers from simply stealing the weapons in the first place. Won't think cause an increase in robberies and burglaries if this is true?
-How many criminals legally register their firearms in their name? Won't this just cause a better market for pre-2010 weapons and the like? Aren't we already awash in these guns? Getting them off the street will not be possible for decades.
-California has placed emissions restrictions on vehicles in their state, thereby placing de-facto regulations on the rest of the country. A noble idea on paper. Of course, a manufacturer is not going to make one model for CA and different ones for the rest of the union. Therefore, there appear to be some cases pending in court as to whether it is allowable for a state to preempt federal law. IANAL, but there is no right to pollute enshrined in the Bill of Rights. Would this mean the microstamping law would face a harder time under judicial review?

4

^ 1

Thinking Out Loud

uncarved block.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 02:13:27 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

   Just some thoughts on the more practical objections you make:

   If a criminal wants an untraceable firearm, they're already around, and are likely used for reasons that will be little affected by this law. Execution style killings come to mind, where the victim is already helpless and volume of firepower doesn't matter. Low level armed hold ups (convenience stores, mugging, etc), where the important factor will be the simple presence of a gun, not how much it can shoot.
   As for registration, I can see the issue cutting both ways. As it stands, a gun owner who gets robbed can only give police the serial number of their gun, which means the actual piece has to get confiscated to be useful. With stamping, the shells will provide cops with one more piece of evidence, and perhaps even a new charge to bring. A gun stolen in one house and used three blocks over narrows the scope of investigation a tad, though such a circumstance would seem uncommon. As far as "seeding" a scene, this only makes it worse, since each gun would presumably be stolen, and the location of each theft might (might!) be rather helpful. But this is very conjectural.
   Whether this will pass constitutional muster is a very open question, and one that doesn't much interest me. The ideologues on both sides will ignore the contradictions an overrule would create, and that would drown out any calm discussion on guns, as usual.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

2

^ 1

I'm in agreement with your questions.

Steve Urkel.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 01:50:16 PM EST

none

"why wouldn't criminals switch to revolvers if they want an untraceable firearm?"

If this holds up, it will be interesting to see how many are smart enough to do that, as well as how often criminals will sprinkle shell casings they've collected at shooting ranges to mislead the cops. It's also easy to replace or modify the microstamped firing pin. This law (I think) takes this into account by making that a crime, but that also puts gun owners whose microstamping has worn down through normal use at risk of being in violation of the law.

I'm guessing criminals use a lot of used and older guns to begin with, this will only increase that.  

And finally the law also seems to be something plainly at odds with the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution.

 

5

^ 2

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

keta.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 03:02:54 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Yeah, smart criminals  abound.

6

^ 2

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

thefadd.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 05:30:21 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

And finally the law also seems to be something plainly at odds with the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution.

What isn't these days?

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

7

^ 6

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

pO157.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 08:36:59 PM EST

none

It's funny how such a clause is used to justify federal action in criminal prosecutions but it doesn't seem to come up to protect civil and other rights.

3

^ 2

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

pO157.

Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 02:07:57 PM EST

none

Even though the law is not in force until 2010, I imagine it would need to be challenged and overturned ASAP to make any difference for the manufacturers. I am not an engineer, but I would imagine that designing and reforging the new models to comply with this law is a time consuming process and not something a company would be willing to put off until the last minute.

I can understand why filing down the external registration numbers on a weapon is a crime. What I do not understand is why the stamping provision now law if it the embossing ability of these weapons decreases over time. If the stamps stop working after a few hundred rounds fired would not that require purchasing a new pistol every few months/years, assuming you practice with it frequently at a range? It seems like the equivalent of writing the weapons registration number on the side in water soluble ink and then arresting the gun owner after they take it out in the rain.

8

^ 3

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

gerrymander.

Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 11:29:36 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

If the stamps stop working after a few hundred rounds fired would not that require purchasing a new pistol every few months/years, assuming you practice with it frequently at a range?

Guns are pretty simple machines, so in theory there's no trouble with making the marking device modular and replaceable. In practice, that opens up entire new avenues of abuse to be set upon legal owners by the government. Will there be a central registry controlling what stamp plates get placed into the properly registered guns? Will they track how frequently the plates get replaced? How easy will it be to forge a fake plate, or bribe an official to get one made? Users of stolen or unregistered firearms, of course, will have none of these restrictions.

And if the firearms manufacturers don't make the stamps easily swappable, your question above raises an interesting unforeseen consequence: the market flooding with formerly stamped guns now illegal to own.

10

^ 2

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

DEMachina.

Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 03:20:53 PM EST

none

And finally the law also seems to be something plainly at odds with the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution.

I don't think so.  The interstate commerce clause restricts interstate commerce regulation to Congress, yes, but there's no precedent that I'm aware of for the idea that a state can't regulate what goes on in its own borders.

The law isn't discriminating against goods from another state; it's regulating the good, not the state it comes from.  This is already done in the case of guns with restrictions on magazine capacities.  The law doesn't seek to protect a California-based business at the expense of those from other states; all business are treated equally, regardless of where they're from.  The two cases we had to read for con law dealing with this were Dean Milk v. City of Madison and Reeves, Inc. v. State (the former was from 1951, the latter from 1980).  I don't have the citations, unfortunately.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

11

^ 10

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

Steve Urkel.

Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 06:30:41 PM EST

none

I seem to have confused notions regarding the commerce clause. But what about the dormant commerce clause? I don't get that either.

12

^ 11

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

DEMachina.

Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 08:33:03 PM EST

none

The Commerce Clause just says that Congress can regulate interstate commerce.  This has been given a very wide interpretation in order to uphold the constitutionality of Congressional acts.  IIRC, it wasn't really expanded until the 1920s and 1930s, when its expansion basically allowed most of the New Deal.

Article I §8 of the Constitution (the Commerce Clause) sets out some things Congress has the power to do.  The dormant Commerce Clause is the idea that because the Constitution lays out those powers that Congress can regulate, that power has been denied to the states.  As I understand it, this idea was first expressed in Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1 (1824), and mentioned again in Willson v. The Black Bird Creek Marsh Company, 27 U.S. 245 (1829).

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

14

^ 12

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

Steve Urkel.

Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 12:53:00 PM EST

none

I'd always thought it was sort of like NAFTA only between states.

What was the basis for the mail order wine ruling, then? Maybe I should look it myself.

15

^ 14

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

DEMachina.

Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 01:51:37 PM EST

none

I'm not sure that's that far off.  Basically the idea is that one state can't tariff or otherwise discriminate against goods produced in another state.  If Congress wants to, on the other hand, that's a whole 'nother thing.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

16

^ 15

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

Steve Urkel.

Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 02:06:05 PM EST

none

Now I'm even more confused. Couldn't smaller manufacturers of guns sue on the basis the law discriminates against them because the costs of implementing the design changes are a greater burden for smaller manufacturers compared to larger ones?

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^ 16

Re: I'm in agreement with your questions.

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 02:58:56 PM EST

none

No, of course not: both manufacturers are being treated equally under the law. By way of another example, suppose there were two firms manufacturing firearms for the California market, the first was California-based and manufactured shotguns and the second was out-of-state and manufactured handguns. If California decided to outlaw all handguns while keeping shotguns legal, they would not be discriminating against the out-of-state company - they'd merely be making their product illegal.

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