Politics

If You Don't Vote, You Got Nothing To Complain About.

MayorBob.

Posted to Politics on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 08:37:49 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Whilst the major and minor combatants are out in the hinterlands, showing up at various campaign appearances and candidate debates, the time is ripe to ask ourselves a mystery of life type question from the political bin.  No, it won't require you to engage in any Hillary or Bush bashing (although that will likely follow).  It's the type of question anyone can weigh in and have an opinion on regardless of your political affiliation.  I've often heard a saying I always thought was rather trite yet, for some people, it truly resonates - "if you don't vote, you have no right to complain."  Is this valid?

From a US perspective, it's sort of silly seeing as how it's been almost 40 years since more than 60 percent of those eligible to vote pulled a lever for a presidential candidate.  Any number of people will respond the notion that your not voting invalidates your opinion about the government is ridiculous.  But, any number of people will tell you hell yes, it's true and we need laws to force the issue.

But, if we did have mandatory voting laws like, say Australia does, would this be an improvement?  Observers say that voter turnout has improved (from less than 60 percent back in 1924 to 95 percent today).  And, according to Australians themselves, they tend to agree if you don't vote - don't bitch.  The corollary to that is, of course, if you voted for someone and their term turned into not what you had hoped for, are you still stuck not bitching because, well, you voted them into office?  Is that right?

What happens if you voted for candidate A because of his or her fiscal integrity and the policies of his or her administration leave our country more at risk of attack from enemies?  What happens if you voted for candidate B because of his or her social agenda and it turned out they administration ended up rife with grifters and crooks?  Would mandatory voting in the US result in the same increased suffrage a la Australia?  Would it result in a better informed electorate, actively looking to find someone worthy of their vote?

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, elections, voting, complaining, US, Australia (all tags)

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4

Things You Can't Say

uncarved block.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:26:23 PM EST

4.50 (interesting)

    As for the general principle about the link between voting and bitching, the sentiment strikes me as one of the many positions folks take that parse down to, "I don't want to think about that any more, so stop bugging me." Similar statements include saying, "that's life" when you hear about someone else's bad fortune, or "politicians are all crooks" when asked why you didn't vote. No harm done, IMO, as everyone can't care about everything. I really don't care about movies or movie stars, for instance, but don't believe that this makes me better than those who do-- though sometimes I confess to feeling a little smug ;)
    Would more voters make things better? Probably not, though I'm also not convinced it would make things that much worse, either. The cliche runs, "if you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything", but I think the statement, "if you stand for one thing, you'll fall for anything" is far more accurate-- and pretty much a good analysis of a lot of political books I shelve at work. Single issue voters are doing a fine job screwing up politics, and I can't see that adding a few more uninformed voters would make that much difference. Thought "Anyone but Bush!" was bad? Wait until the "Anyone but Hillary!" campaign coming next year . . .
    At least this is true at the national level. Would increased turnout at the state or county level help? Maybe. It could change the tone of the politicians coming through the pipeline*, which might prevent folks from riding partisan purity to the top of their party. Maybe, but I doubt it.
    Not that it matters that much. There's a ton of things you'll never hear in the mainstream media, and the possibility that low voter turnout is a good thing is one of them. (Even less likely, except at a panel or two on C-SPAN, is that campaigns actively work at suppressing turnout, often by making voters disgusted with the whole process.) The short version: one of the things government does is allocate scarce resources- sometimes currency, sometimes resources or services- and the citizens who will have their lives changed by who gets elected indicates how strong or weak a nation is. In America, where there's plenty of a lot of things, voter turnout is low, except among a few groups like older voters (Social Security and retirees worried about inflation) or the poor. Indeed, one could even argue that the increased turnout over the last few cycles was a bad sign . . but not me, because the biggest thing you can't say in America is that overall, things just might be fine.

    *To reference the comment title, one thing you can't say in America, that I've noticed, is that voters prefer "fake" politicians just fine, thank you very much. Watch some governors debates on C-SPAN, say, and then follow the results on election day. The choice is there, more often than not, but as the saying goes, the dogs won't eat that dog food.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

7

Re: If You Don't Vote, You Got Nothing To Complain

thefadd.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 06:35:46 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Voting is just one way of getting things done. As the media seems to fixate more and more on how much money has been raised by a candidate as an indication of their health and ability to last a lengthy campaign, donation and fund raising continue to have an increased effect as well. For example, I can only vote for one candidate on election but I can donate to the campaigns of as many as I want.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

1

From the Poll

pO157.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 09:47:15 AM EST

none

It's a silly notion in that you might not like either of the major choices and you know it's a wasted trip to the polls for some obscure third or fourth party candidate.

First, it should never be a wasted trip to the polls. Voting is a sacred right, and I, for one, attempt to vote in every election that comes out. Second, if you really agree with those obscure 3rd/4th party candidates why is it a wasted trip? So, your man loses the run for office. Come on, what is with the constant desire to always have been a 'winner?' If you truly believe the Green Party candidate for Sheriff or what have you is the right man for the job, then go and vote. Make your opinion known.

We should consider rethinking how our elections work and switching to a form of Instant-Runoff voting or other alternative method that gives independents and those who may be affiliated with minor parties more of a reason to go to the polls (as if simply voting was not incentive enough!). That way they can have their vote for their hopeless candidate but still contribute to a less ideal, but still acceptable major player who is more likely to win. Such a plan will increase voter turnout and help restore the ideals of democracy.

Spread it on!

2

^ 1

voting utility

wetkarma.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:19:16 AM EST

none

Voting as a sacred right strikes me as akin to the right to have a jury trial when you obtain a traffic ticket. Yes you can always exercise the franchise, but the system is generally stacked against you doing so or experiencing any positive benefits by doing so.

I don't have any data on this mind you (so call it rife speculation to support my point) but I believe that  civic minded people who advocate voting nevertheless take a dim view of playing the lottery on the grounds that lottery odds are not in your favor. The point I'm trying to make here is that its hard to convince any minority that their vote matters when democratic voting (regardless of implementation) always ultimately goes with majority rule.

While alternate systems such as instant-runoff might raise participation, the key flaw of voting has always been that an informed opinion is equal in value to an uninformed one. Humans being what they are -- campaigns will naturally evolve to present the best 'image' to the populace because data shows that people vote for the "tall, white, handsome candidate" rather than the one with the most viable vision/plan.

On a tangential point - I recently watched a sci-fi movie called Sunshine (whose movie science-fu was quite weak) but they had a brilliant plot device where the crew must decide whether to take a detour outside their assigned mission. Rather than voting on it, they left the decision in the hands of a nominal 'expert' , who of course made the wrong call, thus exposing our social suspicion suspicion of informed opinion and obeisance to group consensus.

I've thought for sometime now that democracy is a tragically flawed system -- the old standby that there is nothing better lined up seem questionable to me however. I look to nations like Singapore and I see the future of national government.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

5

^ 2

Re: voting utility

port1080.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:29:36 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I've thought for sometime now that democracy is a tragically flawed system -- the old standby that there is nothing better lined up seem questionable to me however. I look to nations like Singapore and I see the future of national government.

What other effective governments like Singapore are there? Singapore is an anomaly and it has been effective in large part because the country is so small, surrounded by threatening enemies, highly developed, and mono-ethnic. These circumstances, in combination, apply to almost no other country in the world.

Corpratist semi-authoritarian states can be more efficient than democracies, but they usually don't last. The typical lack of term limits means that good leaders can stay in charge longer (and think more long term) than leaders in democracies, but that lack also makes it very difficult for ineffective leaders to be kicked out of office.

Other examples from SE Asia exemplify this quite well - Suharto ran a Singapore-like system in Indonesia for a number of years, and initially did quite well with it, but eventually corruption and inflexibility caught up to him. At that point there was no way to get him out of office other than violent protests. Even if we argue that Indonesia's problems weren't Suharto's fault, it's undeniable that he was unable to effectively deal with them. If there was a democratic system in place, he could have been replaced peacefully. As it was, it took the threat of revolution.

The same story has been told a hundred times in the last century. Without an effective tool for recall and accountability, stability simply cannot be guaranteed. Relying on the leadership to step down or willingly transition will almost inevitably eventually lead to the sort of conditions that encourage political violence (either from the government, or from the opposition).

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

8

^ 5

Re: voting utility

Steve Urkel.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:51:48 PM EST

none

What's democracy's track record? Since the first one in Athens they have a tendancy go bad. The democracies that haven't are the exceptions, and are as, if not more, anomalous as Singapore (Switzerland, for example).

3

^ 2

Re: voting utility

pO157.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:29:18 AM EST

none

Voting as a sacred right strikes me as akin to the right to have a jury trial when you obtain a traffic ticket. Yes you can always exercise the franchise, but the system is generally stacked against you doing so or experiencing any positive benefits by doing so.

I don't have any data on this mind you (so call it rife speculation to support my point) but I believe that  civic minded people who advocate voting nevertheless take a dim view of playing the lottery on the grounds that lottery odds are not in your favor. The point I'm trying to make here is that its hard to convince any minority that their vote matters when democratic voting (regardless of implementation) always ultimately goes with majority rule.

I agree in part, which is why I prefer the instant runoff system so turnout may be increased for those in minority parties. However, somebody always has to lose in a democracy and you can never control the outcome. There has been more than one case of crazy shit happening during elections. The "majority" position or opinion in society does not mean squat if they can't get their backers to the polls.

While alternate systems such as instant-runoff might raise participation, the key flaw of voting has always been that an informed opinion is equal in value to an uninformed one.

That is one thing about democracy that bothers me. Even people who would vote for somebody because of their race, appearance or shallow characteristics as you mention get the same vote as people who carefully considered the subject at hand. At my last election various campaign tools were standing outside the polls going up to people and saying "Could you do me a favor and vote for these people?" and pressing a list into their hand without any substantive discussion of why. Of course, nobody could tell you how many idiots show up to vote and have their minds changed by some guy giving them a preprinted sample ballot to take into the booth with them but the fact that there are any of those people out there scares me.

But then again, perhaps a well educated minority party could get together and hang around at election stations handing out their preprinted ballot lists. :)

Spread it on!

6

Too cynical

Lou.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 12:32:46 PM EST

none

I once saw a piece of graffiti that proclaimed, "If voting changed anything, it would be illegal."  While I doubt that the ruling elite would go quite so far as to make voting illegal, I can only look at how nasty campaigns have gotten, how focus groups and not issues drive the debate, how beholden every candidate is to special interest groups, how the candidates are more like celebrities than leaders, swiftboating, negative ads and stealth campaigns, and I wonder...what's the difference?  Irrelevant or illegal, it's all the same.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

9

etov

Steve Urkel.

Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:59:03 PM EST

none

"if you don't vote, you have no right to complain."  

This makes no sense. For example, unless something truly bizarre happens, my state is going to go Democratic in 2008. Meaning whether I vote or not, it won't make a difference. It also seems likely the Republicans will nominate someone I don't like. If a Democratic president is elected, only if I cast a meangingless vote for a Republican I didn't like I can complain? Of course not.
 

12

^ 9

Re: etov

pO157.

Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 09:14:01 AM EST

5.00 (funny)

Here is a party accepting applications over the internet for Presidential nominee. They even allow people to help them vet the candidates and decide who to go with over the web (based on number of donors for each nomination seeker).

So, Mr. Urkel, why don't you throw together a website and run for it? I'd vote for an Urkel/Lou '08 ticket assuming you both meet the qualifications.

Spread it on!

11

^ 9

Gordon for Congress

Lou.

Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 07:57:03 AM EST

none

Why didn't you run?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

14

^ 11

Re: Gordon for Congress

Steve Urkel.

Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 02:14:15 PM EST

5.00 (funny, funny)

Some Englishman, whose name I can't remember, was standing for MP and an old lady asked him  "Do you have any skeletons in the closet?" and he looked at her and said "Whole graveyards, madam, whole graveyards."

10

Re: If You Don't Vote, You Got Nothing To Complain

snwodttam.

Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 12:17:43 AM EST

none

"If you don't vote, you have no right to complain."

This is something I have very conflicting feelings about.  On the one hand, it makes perfect sense to me.  Voting is your chance to voice your opinion on something, so if you don't take the chance to do it, too bad for you if you don't like the outcome.  On the other hand, I'm with Urkel and some of the others upthread that have pointed out that here in the States, often your vote is meaningless when the outcome is obvious from the start.  States that are going to go Democratic or Republican no matter who the parties field as their candidate make the opposition vote meaningless.

So, it depends on what day you catch me whether or not I will agree with the quoted statement above.  I do support changing the election laws to make individual votes more meaningful, but I know for a fact that it'll never happen.

13

^ 10

Which Is Why

uncarved block.

Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 11:05:03 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

the real power of the American system is the degree of power allocated to the minority party (or parties, when such existed.) Cloture, vetoes, veto overrides . . if you want the government to act quickly (in normal circumstances), you'd better have about 70% of the electorate on your side. Maybe not the best counter to the "tyranny of the majority" aspect of democracy, but also better than getting shut out of the discussion completely for only getting, say, 48% of the vote.
     Which is why I say the more worrisome development since 1994 isn't the attack ads, the personal attacks, or even the money: the US has seen these things before, some of them even in the first years after the founding. No, what's troubling is the growing sentiment- mostly among Republicans, but now gaining steam among Democrats- that nothing the other side does or says ever warrants consideration. Think about John McCain in 2000, the recent Mukasey nomination (the administration had to soothe the base because Chuck Schumer actually supported him, a situation only ameliorated once top Dems like Biden started to attack Mukasey), and the general sense that if it pisses off "liberals", it must be good. (Sadly, my side of the aisle seems to think this is just hunky dory, at least from the few times I've dropped in on DailyKos.) War always makes these struggles worse, but I'd argue the rot had set in well before Iraq.
    Even more worrisome is that this is unlikely to change. With "personal choice" becoming the mantra, even the religion, of American life (for reasons totally divorced from politics, I would add), patience with those with which you disagree is only going to get shorter and shorter-- and adding a civics class or two in high school is not the answer. At least the worst of the "all attacks, all the time" approach seems to have peaked, though it could return at any time.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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