Politics

Torture Works - now what.

wetkarma.

Posted to Politics on Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 08:47:41 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Much has been written and discussed over the use of "harsh interrogation tactics"/torture for people the US government has in custody. People opposed to torture present their opposition based on two principles. The first is that  torture does not work. A suspect will likely tell you whatever he believes you wish to know regardless of the truth of the situation. The second is that torture is morally wrong and that a society which sanctions the use of torture begins to become the monster it seeks to fight.

For those who advocate the use of torture by the government as an interrogation option, recent news reported in the Washington Post provides some justification.

The Washington Post quotes a former CIA officer who participated in the capture and questioning of Abu Zubaida (after he had been subject to waterboarding) said that his torture "probably saved lives," while regarding waterboarding as torture.

So lets hash it out -- whats your view on torture?

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by wetkarma, torture (all tags)

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6

Re: Torture Works - now what.

thefadd.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:42:50 PM EST

5.00 (funny, astute)

The Washington Post quotes a former CIA officer who participated in the capture and questioning of Abu Zubaida (after he had been subject to waterboarding) said that his torture "probably saved lives," while regarding waterboarding as torture.

Let's see the tapes to prove it. ;-)

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

11

Re: Torture Works - now what.

ThePlague.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 08:37:16 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Whether torture works or not is entirely irrelevant.  It is "cruel and unusual punishment", and therefore unconstitutional in addition to being morally wrong.  The disgusting parsing that the recent AG nominee tried to do with regard to waterboarding specifically was Orwellian in nature.  How can anyone try to maintain that strapping someone down and pouring water in their lungs isn't obviously torture?  The US has been prosecuting it as a war crime for over a century, and now the claim is that it isn't torture?

Another example of something that would be effective but morally wrong is medical experimentation on unwilling people.  A great deal of useful information regarding tolerances to radiation could be determined rather quickly, as an example.  This would be very effective, but entirely monstrous and unacceptable.  The same goes for torture, even if it does work with any reliability.

14

Re: Torture Works - now what.

Some Guy.

Sun Dec 16, 2007 at 12:09:26 PM EST

5.00 (astute, brilliant)

Interesting question.  I think there are two senses in which torture "works", or at least can work.

#1 is to break people.
#2 is to elicit information.

I think most torture is done for purpose #1, while purpose #2 is held out as a justification for its use as a policy.  The "ticking time bomb" scenario never actually happens -- and if it did, how would you know in advance that your captor had the ticking time bomb info that you needed?  It's a made up scenario to gull people into supporting torture.  

In the case of Abu Zubaida, it seems likely that torture was used and was effective for purpose #2.  So, I accept wetkarma's premise.  Also, FWIW, I can accept that Zubaida "deserved" to be tortured.

Still against it, though.  Reasons are:

#1) Usage creep.  Don't say it won't happen, it does.  How could it not?

#2) We have signed obligations promising not to torture.  The people who drafted and signed those treaties were not missing any information that we now have.

#3) It taints everything it touches.  You can't make a legal case based on any tortured info.  So if you are using torture, then any actions you take based on that info. are and must be outside of the law.  Hello, death squads!

#4) Economics suggests that the people most willing to carry out torture will be sadists.  If those same people are making the judgments or recommendations about who & when to torture, it is safe to assume they will find more cases for torture than actually exist.

#5) Is it in our interest to have a reputation for torturing prisoners?  I submit that it is not.  If I suspected my neighbor of a terrorist plot, I would certainly call the police, even though my suspicions might prove unfounded.  If I thought the police were likely to torture him, I would be hesitant to call the police on the basis of my suspicions.

15

^ 14

When's the book coming out?

Shy Elf.

Mon Dec 17, 2007 at 07:30:38 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

I'm waiting for his book deal to be announced.  It's clear that he's not doing this to help the Bush administration; the very last thing they need is for one of their agents to plaster their face all over TV at the very same time the Bush administration is trying to argue that, really, really, we needed to destroy the interview tapes despite court orders not to do so, and this isn't obstruction of justice because it was necessary so that the agents' identities not be revealed.

No, he's trying to set himself up as the good guy.  I used to torture people, he says, but now I'm against it.  And when I did, I got good information in just seconds which saved many lives.  But torture is still wrong.  And the administration's stonewalling efforts on torture make him look like a whistleblower even though he doesn't have much new information.

He has every reason to play up the importance of the information the got and the success of the torture, because they make him more important.  General Wayne Downing's comments were

"The interrogations of Abu Zubaydah drove me nuts at times...He and some of the others are very clever guys. At times I felt we were in a classic counter-interrogation class: They were telling us what they think we already knew. Then, what they thought we wanted to know. As they did that, they fabricated and weaved in threads that went nowhere. But, even with these ploys, we still get valuable information and they are off the street, unable to plot and coordinate future attacks."
So Abu Zubaydah was trying to play them for chumps (cracking in seconds is way too soon) and John Kiriakou was green or dumb enough to buy it, but they still got good information out of him.

To translate the religious language, "Allah told me to" simply means, "I decided it was the proper (just) thing to do."  This could of course be a lie, but unlike our liar in chief, terrorists as a whole (and maybe not their leaders) tend to be a bunch of remarkably unsubtle, honest guys who like to shout "Death to America" at their own detainee status hearings.  At Abu Zubaida's own detainee status hearing, he spent much of the time railing about how mad he was at Bin Laden for going after civilians, instead of, presumably, going after military installation and anyone nearby, or anyone who helped Israel, or other targets valid under his version of Islamic law.  Perhaps he decided that the terrorist movement would be better off without Bin Laden and his followers for this reason.  Maybe he was just jealous of him.   With so much information classified or destroyed it's hard to judge probabilities.

The CIA tortured quite a lot of people and he's the only one they claim to have gotten good information out of.  If you interrogate enough people about their brother in law, eventually you find one who hates their brother in law.

As far as success goes, I don't think you can count merely getting useful information as success.  The first question would be, was the information useful enough to make up for the additional enemies that you created as a result of obtaining it.  In this case, we must ask whether we really did enough damage to Al Quaida to be worth giving them and other anti-American groups Abu Graib as a recruiting poster.  The second question would be whether it is useful to make up for the damage to the will to continue in counter-terrorism activity caused by the torture of innocents which inevitably accompanies any widespread torture-based counter-terrorism program.  The third question is, even if successful, does it do enough good to make up for the damage to our democratic institutions.

As far as I can tell from historical precedents, considering the Phillipine-American War, the Vietnam War, Iraq under Saddam, the "Dirty War" in Argentina, Vichy France, Turkey, Chechnya, and Spain, it seems to be that the answer to the first question is generally yes, where it expands to retaliatory attacks on likely sympathizer populations, with little effect otherwise.  The answer to the second is generally no in post-WWII democracies, at least to torture activities widespread enough to suppress terrorism.  This leads those in power to disapprove of democracy, with the consequence that the answer is generally no to the third question as well.

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Re: Torture Works - now what.

PenitenziAgite.

Wed Dec 19, 2007 at 03:39:18 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

You make some excellent points here, but to your first two reasons, I would add a third:

#3 To spread fear and keep a population cowed.

Once the word gets out that people are being tortured, that throws fear into the equation, and thus a population becomes more suggestible, easier to manage, etc.  

That works when you are the only game in town.  In Iraq, we are not necessarily the biggest, baddest folks around.  The trouble with spreading fear in this way is that it just makes people responsive to whoever can take advantage of that fear, and that is not always us.  

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

17

What waterboarding is like

wetkarma.

Sat Dec 22, 2007 at 05:10:57 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I find this writeup from the Straight Dope to be highly compelling.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

1

Update: Main Story Link

wetkarma.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:36:14 AM EST

none

The "Washington Post" statement should have had a link to this story. . I suspect general incompetence on my part for it not being included.


A former CIA officer who participated in the capture and questioning of the first al-Qaeda terrorist suspect to be waterboarded said yesterday that the harsh technique provided an intelligence breakthrough that "probably saved lives," but that he now regards the tactic as torture.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

13

^ 1

John Kiriakou

thefadd.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:40:18 PM EST

none

...is a brave man. It was an interesting interview that he did today on npr. He built a rather convincing case for the reasons we don't need to do things like water boarding.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

2

What a surprise

Lou.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 09:59:25 AM EST

none

A CIA agent who took part in torture says that torture probably saved lives.

Nope...no vested interest here volks...move along.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

3

^ 2

Re: What a surprise

wetkarma.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 10:14:15 AM EST

none

thats rather specious Lou. Wouldn't he logically then have reason to say that the interrogation was NOT torture? That way we both 'saved lives' and 'didn't torture'?

Why accept the torture statement and yet reject the saved lives statement from the same person?

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

4

^ 3

Re: What a surprise

Lou.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 11:22:12 AM EST

none

Agent Dirk Ironjaw turned his steely eyed gaze on the TnT audience, almost daring them to disagree.

"Yes, it's torture...the whole world knows it's torture.  We'd be fools to deny it.  I don't like it, nobody likes it!  Yet I have ironclad proof that it maybe works, sometimes...I have the data here somewhere."

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

5

^ 4

Re: What a surprise

wetkarma.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 11:31:07 AM EST

none

Come on Lou - the data here is fairly clear. He is saying specifically that intelligence disclosed by Abu Zubaida foiled many plans.

Now from public record we know that Zubaida disclosed the identity/importance of KSM to 9/11. Surely getting the identity behind the central planner of 9/11 is valid data? (Whether or not its worth torture is a separate question).

The 9/11 commission report relies extensively on the Zubaida interviews for fleshing out 9/11. So in theory an entire books worth of data is based (in part) on the 'proof' that torture works.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

7

^ 5

Re: What a surprise

thefadd.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 03:47:42 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Come on Lou - the data here is fairly clear.

Er, no. One anonymous enforcement official making a very vague statement that one instance with one really bad dude "probably" saved lives is not really something I'd base such an assertion on.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

8

^ 5

Ehhh...

1fastdog.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 05:27:18 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

In an interview, Kiriakou said he did not witness Abu Zubaida's waterboarding but was part of the interrogation team that questioned him...
....according to Kiriakou, who said he was given a detailed description of the incident by fellow team members.

So he didn't witness anything, but he was informed by others... I'm not gonna say that it's impossible for torture to yield some results, but on the other hand, people tend to say things during torture, to you know, make it stop:

In documents prepared for a military hearing at Guantanamo Bay, where he is still held, Abu Zubaida asserted that he was tortured by the CIA, and that he told his questioners whatever they wanted to hear to make the torture stop.

Somebody's lying here. The jury's still out on who it is.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

10

^ 8

Re: Ehhh...

wetkarma.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 04:24:19 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)


So he didn't witness anything, but he was informed by others.

The sequence of events he describes is as follows:

  1. Zubaida is captured and refuses to say anything.
  2. He is wasterboarded -- cellophane is wrapped around his nose and mouth and a tube inserted into his mouth with water poured in to simulate drowning. This lasts for around 1/2 minute.
  3. The next day Zubaida states that Allah has told him to talk to help his brothers.

Separately:
The 9/11 commission report describes how intelligence given from Zubaida describes the role of Kalid Sheikh Mohammed in 9/11. Subsequently KSM is captured by the CIA-Pakistan in a joint raid.

There is plenty of evidence indicating that with this man is saying is broadly accurate. There is virtually no evidence which contradicts what he is saying.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

12

^ 10

Re: Ehhh...

skeptic.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 09:54:56 AM EST

3.00 (interesting)

It's a complicated situation.  It is quite true that when people are subjected to sufficiently horrible torture they are willing to say anything to make the torture stop, which means that torture can be used to obtain false confessions to crimes that the suspect didn't actually commit, and other false information.  In the middle ages, everyone accused of being a witch eventually confessed, although they actually were all innocent.  However, it is also true that sometimes the person being tortured will resort to telling the truth, to make the torture stop.  As your comment shows, there is reason to believe that this has happened in at least one significant case.  So if you can even occasionally obtain useful information about terrorism, it might, in a purely strategic sense, be worthwhile to torture.  

There is still the moral problem of whether such dire cruelty is justifiable for any purpose.  But then, violent conflict always raises these kinds of issues.  People still argue about whether it was morally justifiable (or even militarily justifiable) for the US to have used nuclear weapons against Imperial Japan in WW II.  Or napalm, in the Vietnamese War.  Or even whether it is justifiable to go to war for any reason.  There is no question that even in the case of the most fully justified wars fought in self-defense against a vicious and immoral enemy such as the Third Reich, there are still innocent people who will suffer (as for example in the case of the bombing of Dresden).  Yet, if virtuous people abstain from violence, that will guarantee that the world will be ruled by less virtuous people who do use violence (at least, until such time as all people in the world become virtuously pacifistic, and there seems to be no reason to expect that such a utopia will ever arrive).  And there is no limit to the evil which can then be committed by the world's violent and immoral rulers.  People such as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc. have richly illustrated how bad things can get.  So there is no easy answer.

But we can certainly regret that we live in the kind of world in which torture is seen to be necessary.  

9

Re: Torture Works - now what.

tomc.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:57:27 PM EST

none

whats your view on torture?

If there was no torture, there'd be no Hell.

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