Etcetera

Maniac Kills Eight, Self at Crowded Omaha Mall

pO157.

Posted to Etcetera on Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 11:33:13 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Robert Hawkins, 20, was apparently the perpetrator of mass murder at a mall in Nebraska yesterday evening. Eight people (plus the murderer) are dead, and at least five wounded.

Police were called to the Omaha WestRoads Mall at 1:42PM after receiving reports that Mr. Hawkins was leaning over the 3rd floor railing and firing a rifle type weapon at people below. Although every officer in the city soon arrived at the mall, the situation was over within 6 minutes with the assailant found dead on the 3rd floor from a self inflicted gunshot wound.

Eventually a relative brought suicide notes from Mr. Hawkins to the police. He was apparently upset over being terminated from his place of employment, and had a prior police record. Reports also indicated he was a high school dropout who was rejected from the Army for failing military aptitude exams. He had also been kicked out of his families house and recently broke up with his girlfriend.

The President, Governor of Nebraska and the Congressional delegation all sent their sympathies to the victims as the magnitude of the events became clear.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, mass murder, Nebraska (all tags)

This story: 22 comments (2 from subqueue)
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Re: Maniac Kills Eight, Self at Crowded Omaha Mall

pO157.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:27:35 PM EST

none

I heard a few people talking about this idiot. Apparently he did it for the supposed fame and to go out in a blaze of glory. It is the biggest mass murder in Omaha's history. The question then becomes: Does the media have a responsibility to help prevent these types of problems in the future by not devoting as much attention to the disturbed nutball who carried the attacks out? Where the line be drawn (if anywhere?)

Also, does anybody think this will affect the shopping mall experience in the future? Will our malls and public gathering places eventually turn into more secure facilities like in Israel with metal detectors and searches upon entrance?

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Re: Maniac Kills Eight, Self at Crowded Omaha Mall

wetkarma.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:40:21 PM EST

none

A few years ago I went to a movie theater in Long Island, NY which were forcing customers to go through metal detectors before entering. I'd never go back.

Malls are not like airports where people will put up with lots of shit because there aren't any other good travel options. Make me feel like a criminal when I shop and I'll go take my business elsewhere -- perception of security be damned.

As to media coverage, I'm a bit insulated from it here across the pond, but this is a huge story - however I bet collectively we won't remember the name of this goober a year from now.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Maniac Kills Eight, Self at Crowded Omaha Mall

pO157.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:58:41 PM EST

none

Malls are not like airports where people will put up with lots of shit because there aren't any other good travel options. Make me feel like a criminal when I shop and I'll go take my business elsewhere -- perception of security be damned.

Excellent analysis. I remember having to go through metal detectors for an amusement park when growing up. I did not return either. Absolutely ridiculous.

Another think I think is retarded are those security guards malls or stores have at the exits demanding to see their customers receipts before allowing them to leave. That is ridiculous. It is a sad commentary on our society when people allow themselves to be treated like cattle, or criminals for no reason.

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Re: Maniac Kills Eight, Self at Crowded Omaha Mall

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:50:46 PM EST

none

Will our malls and public gathering places eventually turn into more secure facilities like in Israel with metal detectors and searches upon entrance?
No doubt there are people who are seriously (though stupidly) suggesting that very thing, but metal detectors would not have stopped this guy.

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<sarcasm>

pO157.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:57:53 PM EST

5.00 (funny, funny)

But think of the children! Even if it prevents one person from doing something it is worth it. Why don't you agree people should be subject to random searches and be treated like convicted felons just to go to the store? If you're not with us, you're against us! Plus, you have nothing to fear if you are not trying to do something illegal. USA! USA! USA!

...
Did I miss any?

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Re: &lt;sarcasm&gt;

dgraham.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 05:32:26 PM EST

none

I think that covered the bases nicely.

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Re: &amp;lt;sarcasm&amp;gt;

pO157.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 07:09:52 PM EST

none

Thank you. I often wish policy debates in this country could be covered without appeals to emotion or scare tactics but it often seems like that will something that will forever be a dream of mine. I guess the only thing I can do is make fun of that type of thinking.

One can always hope, though.

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Re: <sarcasm>

dgraham.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 08:06:17 PM EST

none

I was recently reading about "framing" and I wonder if maybe the two are related. Do these sort of "discussion" tactics just work better at motivating people, or is just an easy solution for politicians to quickly frame their position on a controversial topic?

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Re: <sarcasm>

thefadd.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 12:56:52 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I'm not really clear on what the difference is between the two possible answers to your question are that you're putting forward so it seems to me we're very likely talking about this in different terms. If I'm not addressing your point here, could you talk about it a little more?

The best example I can think of for "framing" a discussion was the constant repetition post 9/11 of the "This is something none of us could have expected" meme. It was simply repeated over and over again by the administration and the media as a key talking point to coming to grips with 9/11. This was vital to framing the discussion of how the nation would react to what happened. There was suddenly a crisis of epic proportions. At the same time, it was quite clear to anyone who took a moment to think about it that planes being flown into the World Trade Center was actually something quite a number of people inside and outside the government could easily have conceived, and indeed did conceive of pre-9/11. There was the attack in the early nineties and the knowledge that islamic terrorists frequently get one target in their head and don't give up on it. There were movies and books written about scenarios very similar to the one that actually happened. There were government reports considering the possibility of it happening. There were numerous planes throughout the history of flight that have accidentally flown into buildings. It was quite clearly something that, while shocking and momentarily surprising, was something that a reasonable person whose job it was to consider such things, could have expected. But these considerations were things that were "framed out" of the discussion because as we all know, 9/11 was "something none of us could have expected."

I handle contract negotiations in my job and this question of "how do we frame it" is the first thing that our team sits down and discusses each time a new project comes up. We take to the individuals their "framed" portion of the big picture and quite regularly use the fact that they're not aware of other information outside their frame as leverage. It's our job to do this. If we simply gave the other people we work with all our information, they wouldn't need us any longer and our company would go away. Do you get everyone this way? No but 9 times of 10 you certainly get enough.

Part of framing a discussion is taking the offensive in making that framing happen. One of the key ways to getting the other side off balance is to get them emotional and to frame key discussions in terms of a "crisis." Creating an emotional response within a crisis to which you can provide the answers gives you key access to a person's decision making processes. It's no mistake that this is one of the first lessons in pick up artistry.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: <sarcasm>

dgraham.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:43:30 AM EST

none

I guess I didn't mean the two options to be exclusive to eachother. What I sort of was trying to say was do people do it (emotional appeals, silly framing) because it works, or because it's quick and easy, or possibly both?

Replies seem to indicate both, which is sort of depressing. As you indicate it can be difficult to recover from the initial off-balance of a strongly emotional framing of an event, but I feel like people could be more aware of it, and try to take a more critical look at things.

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Re: &lt;sarcasm&gt;

thefadd.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 01:21:11 PM EST

none

Ah, interesting take. I know people who ought to "know better" -- ie, one would hope that reasonable, intelligent people could find ways to relate to one another in the fashion p0 advocates -- but who pursue the emotional crisis mode in almost all cases because they feel it is most successful. You probably have no idea who I'm talking about but take NHL coach Mike Keenan or NFL coaches Ray Rhodes or Tom Coughlin. They're known for their emotional crisis appeals...and they're known to have been initially successful but for their motivations to wear thin. Ray Rhodes, it was said, would give rousing speeches to his players in which he declared that the opposition were home invaders who had come and stuck guns to the heads of his player's family.

In the same way, there's already terrorism fatigue in America you can tell that the current administration has already learned they're getting a lower and lower response rate each time they use it. Personally, I think people do it yes because it works but also because they don't really know any better and it's always more difficult to go about things "the right way."

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: &lt;sarcasm&gt;

pO157.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 09:07:55 PM EST

none

Both and neither. I think these appeals to emotion have a few purposes. One: As you point out they motivate the base. Nothing gets the base more likely to write angry e-mails or call in than appeals to emotion. Two: By painting the issue as a black and white type situation they can simply the issue to masses who may not care enough about it to research all the sides and will settle for a simple explanation of the debate. Three: By making things "black and white" they allow the emotion to deny the opposition the chance to point out "the world is grey" and that the issue may not be as simple as proposed.

This way a complex discussion about privacy rights, effectiveness, civil liberties and downright plausability turns into "Why don't you think of the children? Why do you support child porn?"

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Re: <sarcasm>

dgraham.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 11:15:15 PM EST

none

Wow, I had completely missed that... Wow.

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Re: &lt;sarcasm&gt;

pO157.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 08:09:16 AM EST

none

Scary isn't it? I think it would make for a good TnT story. It's been on my to do list since I first read about it.

2

Eight people? Hm

wetkarma.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 12:36:42 PM EST

none

This story reminds me in passing of Tom Clancy's dreck post-911 novel "Teeth of the Tiger" or something like that. I'm too lazy to check, but a sub-plot was islamic terrorists shooting up a mall.

I always figured however that had the event really happened, a nut with an automatic weapon would be able to kill far more people than 8. I personally hate going to the mall (for reasons mentioned in prior black friday thread), but really this sort of event can happen anywhere. Other than wearing body armor whats there to be done?

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Eight people? Hm

pO157.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 01:01:08 PM EST

none

This story reminds me in passing of Tom Clancy's dreck post-911 novel "Teeth of the Tiger" or something like that. I'm too lazy to check, but a sub-plot was islamic terrorists shooting up a mall.

I thought of that too. Same thing as in the hours after 9/11 I thought I was living in Mr. Clancy's "Debt of Honor." Perhaps instead of banning guns or putting metal detectors up what we really should do is just ask Mr. Clancy to stop his Jack Ryan series and recall all his books currently in circulation. ;)

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Re: Eight people? Hm

wetkarma.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 at 03:11:10 PM EST

none

Yea I had the debt of honor deja vu thing too.

Still as long as we don't go to a "red storm rising" scenario eh?

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Eight people? Hm

Shy Elf.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 04:42:49 AM EST

none

Reports I saw said he reloaded only twice.  I suppose we can be thankful that McDonald's doesn't pay enough to buy a good arsenal.

And you thought your Christmas shopping experience was bad.

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malls and self-defense

wetkarma.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 07:02:51 AM EST

none

When I lived in Virginia, quite a few people there would walk around with sidearms  and ever so often you'd hear a local story about a mall preventing firearm owners from entering the mall. (the malls declaring themselves "gun free zones").

Following up on the recent DC gun control thread, I wonder when some clever lawyer will begin to sue these malls for failing to provide appropriate defense of its patrons while intentionally stripping said patrons from the ability to defend themselves.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: malls and self-defense

pO157.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 08:33:58 AM EST

none

Following up on the recent DC gun control thread, I wonder when some clever lawyer will begin to sue these malls for failing to provide appropriate defense of its patrons while intentionally stripping said patrons from the ability to defend themselves.

That would be an interesting case to be a juror for. But, wouldn't the first plaintiff have to be somebody who had a weapons permit or otherwise carried legally on a regular basis? The proportion of legal gun owners to the population as a whole is a bit small and I would imagine many of them would likely take their business elsewhere if they were prohibited from carrying. Therefore while these type of incidents may (unfortunately) be on the rise in the future I doubt we would see a claim like this anytime soon.

In addition, entering the mall was voluntary and gun wielding maniacs have become more common over the years. Couldn't the mall argue that the firearms owner knowingly accepted the chances he might get popped by a mad(wo)man when he was buying socks at the Macys?

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Re: malls and self-defense

wetkarma.

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 09:04:02 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

IANAL, so just spitballing here: you don't need a weapons permit to carry a firearm in many states. In virginia for example you have an explicitly "right to carry". The proportion of the population affected therefore is theoretically 100%. Now I assume that it would be a better case if the person owned a handgun and left it in the vehicle before entering the mall..but the overall liability still seems in play.

As to your thought that the mall's defense could be that "hey if you come to the mall, you just have to accept the risk of getting popped" might not work due to the way negligence laws work. If the malls see a risk of gun toting gun men coming to their premises and they fail to protect you, they in theory are liable. The basic argument is that by taking away people's ability to carry guns, the malls have an enhanced duty of care in protecting their patrons.

course that argument cuts no ice with the government (in terms of suing the police for failing to respond to you when you report an attack), but it MIGHT work with a private entity.

Maybe Thalia can weigh in and help us out.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Eight is Enough

3fingerspointback.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 at 06:37:16 PM EST

none

I always figured however that had the event really happened, a nut with an automatic weapon would be able to kill far more people than 8.

I don't know why you'd say that.  8 dead and 5 wounded in 6 minutes is not bad at all.  Maybe the first two hits are freebies due to surprise, but after that all of your targets are moving.  Charles Whitman had marine training and a much wider area to kill in, but only logged 35 casualties over the course of his 2-hour stay at the top of a clock tower.  An ambush by a trained army sniper on an unprepared enemy that kills 8 and wounds 5 would be considered a great success.

what's to be done?

No one's yet been shot by crazies lurking around Amazon.com.  If you must leave the house, a good standing with the Holy Spirit has been said to help.

(is 3fingerspointback)

This story: 22 comments (2 from subqueue)
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