No the comment I made still doesn't appear after switching to view all.. I think it just wasn't submitted.

Tipping Sacred Cows

Can also include links for: Misuse of funds, Israel releasing Palestinian money (which requires legislature approval to spend) to Fatah for 'security reasons' and that Israel is now running guns for Fatah. - rEvolution inAction

Perhaps you might want to send a message to shane about this.  Frankly, I'm stumped.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

No worries, if it happens again I will, but this could have just been my error or my browser or my pc or my connection (I've been getting alot of timeout's recently).

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I don't doubt that the Israeli government wants peace, but what peace do they want?

One that starts with, "The state of Israel and it's people have the right to exist." As that's a condition Hamas can't even give lip service to, any further negotiations are moot..

The other side of that coin, and it's an important one, is that it seems to be a peace that does not include a viable state for the Palestianians.

Frankly, I don't see either Israel or the Palestinians (whether under Fatah or Hamas) as good-faith actors anymore.

Now with caps!

You're missing something. The state of Israel must remain a Jewish state. That is one of the big problems. It's also why I can't ever support Israel. They're explicitly saying that Israel must always put it's Jewish citizens before it's non-Jewish ones.. and because of the whole ethnic/religious definition of Jewishness, it compounds it.

Tipping Sacred Cows

What do you suggest Israel do instead?  Israel says that it must always be based on the refuge-for-Jews principles.  So yes, they do put the Jews ahead of others.  On the other hand, unlike in the U.S. when a Muslim Arab was elected to the Knesset (Congress) no one was objecting.  It's not like any of the neighboring countries are welcoming Jews with open arms.  So if Saudi Arabia can remain a Wahabi state, and Iran a Shiite state, why can't Israel remain a Jewish state?

Thalia

So if Saudi Arabia can remain a Wahabi state, and Iran a Shiite state, why can't Israel remain a Jewish state?

As an advocate for secular democracy, I would prefer it if none of those places remained religious states. And as I understand it, our gov't argues that Saudi Arabia and Iran should be secular democracies, like the one they're supposedly trying to create in Iraq.   If that's true, we should ask the same of Israel.

Another thing: generally speaking, I think it's a bad idea to define what's "ok" by saying "Well, they're doing it, why can't we?" It's not question of "can," it's a question of should. Just because x is doing something wrong, doesn't mean we should feel entitled to do the same. That's a great way to get everyone to race to the bottom.

Now with caps!

Never? Really? Oh wait.. you just meant the Knesset.. not an actual cabinet position ( an interview with him)... and the non-Jews can now have access to sewers.

Saudi Arabia/Iran.. two things.. do you also have to be Arab/Persian? .. my bad.. I forgot that converts where given full rights as Jews in '97... besides, I thought Israel was supposed to be Democracy's outpost int he Middle-East.. not just the same old shit.

What do you suggest Israel do instead?  Israel says that it must always be based on the refuge-for-Jews principles.

'Then they came for me..'

Haaretz has pretty much the same take as me... and on other matters as well (this link is an op-ed).

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The Knesset is the Congress.  You remember the bullshit that went down when the first Muslim was elected to the U.S. Congress?  After 200+ years?  And last I checked, Muslim countries haven't made war on the U.S. particularly.  So WTF with "oh just the Knesset"?  As to the Muslim cabinet minister, do tell me who all the Muslim cabinet members are in our current administration.  

The problem with making it a "refuge for everyone" is the same problem that the U.S. has with immigration.  If enough immigrants move in suddenly, the character of the state changes, and not in a good way usually.  I don't know of any country that says "yes, come on in, you poor, uneducated, downtrodden folks, come live here."  Do you?  The U.S. restricts immigration to countries it likes, Europe is even more strict.  It's rather a stretch to expect Israel (which in size is smaller than Rhode Island) to accept "all refugees" when you do not expect the same from first world countries that are hundreds of times larger.

Thalia

The US has more atheists than they do Muslims (and they top out at around 10-15%). Israel has 16% of it's population identified by census as Muslim. Also it is hard to compare parliamentary positions with republican ones as both the powers and the method of appointment differs greatly.

That's the thing. I do expect that behaviour from those larger countries as well. Anyone who is opposed to unregulated immigration is racist in my mind, especially when it comes to granting refugee status to those who need it. But that's what we get when we hold dear to a concept that was developed by kings (sovereignty)..

I think the first country to understand the benefits of offering refuge to the world's masses will be the next super power.

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In other words, you deem all countries in the world "racist."  That's cool.  At least a consistent position.  It's a bit weird to consider the absolute concensus to be "racist" but c'est la vie.

Thalia

Absolute consensus implies that everyone agrees, which is not true. I'd say it's an absolute consensus of nations, but not of the people making up those nations. It happens to be the policy of majority in every country (especially western) and the most for it are always the nationalist parties, which bleeds over to the conservatives who dress up in economic theories to make it palatable to people who don't want to see themselves as racist but really don't like the idea of 'foreigners taking their jobs.'

Tipping Sacred Cows

Anyone who is opposed to unregulated immigration is racist in my mind

Quite a nuanced conclusion in your mind.

Didn't say it was.

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Y'know, there's always been more than one flavor of Zionism (like Feminism and all the rest of it), and I'd prefer mine, if I had a choice, closer to an enlightened advancement from where the USA finds itself now. I'd rather we (the USA) were something more than an eternal eating machine, and I'd rather Israel were more than the bizarro world version of itself. It wasn't supposed to be this way, methinks...

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

Sorry about the semi-coherent comment. I am at work. This is one of the few polls I couldn't bring myself to vote for any of the available options.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

Sadly, I couldn't come up with an option I actually wanted.  Suggestions?

[option] Have Israel and Palestine become two nations within one united country, with one capital city (Jerusalem) for the three governments (Federal,Israeli,Palestinian, and a Jerusalem municipal government).

Tipping Sacred Cows

I'm not so sure that that is a huge problem. As long as equal rights regardless of religion are enshrined in the constitution, then the religion of the state is fine. Judaism is more benign than Christianity - there is not the same history of forced conversion in Judaism as there is in Christianity. I'm an agnostic, so I'm not overly keen on the idea of a state-enshrined religion, but as long as it also practices tolerance, then it is fine.

The problem with Israel is not that it is a Jewish state, but rather that it appears to not want to compromise over its settlements in Palestinian land.

In addition, if you have a problem with the Jewish nature of Israel, please either keep it to yourself, or don't associate with those of us who are solely concerned with the occupation of Palestinian land. I know that it doesn't necessarily mean that you are anti-semitic - and I really believe that you aren't - but it is opening up your flank too much to such accusations.

Historically Judaism has had a problem recognizing conversions. The problem is that the state's constitution affirms equal rights for all, but in practice is discriminatory.

The occupation has a lot to do with the Jewish nature of the state. Israel has the illegal settlements because the Palestinians won't compromise on their Right of Return which Israel doesn't want to touch because it would invalidate the Jewishness of the state (according to the 'Demographic Bomb' argument).

So no, I don't have a problem with the Jewish nature of Israel.. it's a problem with the Jewish nature of the laws of Israel.. or to make it clearer, the unbalanced application of the law.

Tipping Sacred Cows

Oh.. one other thing. In Israel 80% of the population is defined as Jewish, the largest minority is not 'Muslims' it is 'Israeli Arabs'. Those are the definitions they use. Does equality of religion still matter at that point?

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CIA Factbook says:

Ethnic groups:
Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004)

Religions:
Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004)

Israeli Arabs are not an ethnic group, they are a definition.  They are Arabs (ethnically) who are Israeli citizens.  Not ethnically different from being an Arab who is not an Israeli citizen.  Kind of how there is no "ethnic" difference between Asian-American and Asian.  

Thalia

Arab or Israeli Arab, they are still treated as second class citizens... please explain why.

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For the same reason that the U.S. discriminated against blacks for over 100 years, because they're afraid.  And they have some right to be afraid. Some 60% of Israeli Arabs support the Palestinian intifada.  And demographic bomb like, the number of Israeli Arabs grew from 150,000 only fifty years ago to over a million now.   It's not a good thing that there is discrimination, and it is in fact illegal under Israeli laws.  

Thalia

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

- excerpt from the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel

It's beautiful, isn't it?

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All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

- excerpt from the Fourteenth Amendment.

It's beautiful, isn't it.  And it predates the end of Jim Crow laws by a mere 100 years.

Yup.. too bad it's ignored too often.

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Simply a crying shame. The constant mourning of what might have been, what should have been, and what was intended to have been, for all of us stupid, motherfucking children on this green planet of the clocks.

Let's build a new sandcastle, just for kicks.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

They're explicitly saying that Israel must always put it's Jewish citizens before it's non-Jewish ones

And yet, one can find non-Jewish representation in Israel's government, but not a single Jew anywhere in power in Palestine. Go figure.

As I'm sure you know, the majority of Jews living in Palestine vote in Israeli elections.

Tipping Sacred Cows

The majority of Mexicans in the U.S. don't vote in U.S. elections either.  Citizenship is required.  But there are quite a few non-Jewish citizens in Israel, and they have a right to vote.

Thalia

True enough.

Tipping Sacred Cows

This is to both you and coq: I wasn't really considering rEv's comment per se here,  and I wasn't necessarily defending Thalia's remark --  but just saying that perhaps she was reacting to history.

I could name David Palter and Eduardo who fall into that category when you get them right revved up on the topic.

Count me as a third, then, if getting revved up means reacting to some of what I've seen posted; e.g., the seemingly wide latitude given a group like Hamas -- shame more people can't look past their, you know, stated purpose --  with no corresponding generosity given Israel or the U.S.

Surely most of us fall in between here and blame everybody involved. But we don't make as much noise.