SciTech

Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

port1080.

Posted to SciTech on Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:53:50 AM EST (promoted by 1fastdog). RSS.

Open source software (OSS) has come a long way since the days when a linux installation required detailed knowledge of the command line and obscure details about your monitor's refresh rates, but closed source software still dominates both the business and personal computer market.

The dominance of closed source software is doubly puzzling, because there are increasingly open source (and free) alternatives for most people's software needs. While many people still associate OSS with programs written for the Linux operating system, there are numerous open source programs written specifically for the MS Windows operating system, or which have multiple versions for different platforms.

A brief list of Windows compatible OSS alternatives shows that the level of software being offered has matured substantially over the last few years. Internet Explorer has received a strong challenge from the Mozilla Foundation's Firefox browser. The Mozilla folks have also provided e-mail and calendar applications through their Thunderbird and Sunbird programs, respectively. Open Office and Abi Word are both full featured word-processor programs that match up well with Microsoft Office. VLC media player plays nearly every video and audio format straight out of the box, and VirtualDub provides a well rounded video editing solution. On the image editing front, the GIMP provides image editing capabilities that match up well with most consumer level programs, while imgv works well for basic image viewing and on-the-fly editing. Nvu provides a comprehensive web page authoring program, and even basic file compression has been improved and expanded upon by the 7-zip program.

In addition to being completely free, since these programs are open source the end user can legally customize, improve, or otherwise manipulate the code of the programs in any way he or she may want to. Given all these advantages, what is holding OSS back? Is it the the lack of end-user support, that fact the programs themselves are sometimes overly complex for the average user, or simply a lack of advertising and availability in retail stores? If you use open source programs on a regular basis, share your favorites with us and fill us in on the good and the bad of using OSS in your everyday computing activities.

Tags: written by Port1080, edited by 1fastdog, open source software, Mozilla, technology (all tags)

This story: 61 comments (4 from subqueue)
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2

OSS lacks three critical things:

3fingerspointback.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:45:45 AM EST

5.00

  1.  Marketing.  If no one's heard of your product, they won't use it.  And if they've only heard of your product when it's mentioned in passing by some open-source pontificator, then they're not going to be inclined to dump their so-so tool that works kinda-well.  Sad but true.

  2.  Design.  Most OSS products go for feature-richness, and end up designed in a way that completely satisfies the project lead, and irritates everyone else who uses it.  I'll give an example:  When I'm using Word to write a tech document, I use the classic infinite-scroll, pagebreaks-denoted-by-dashes view, which allows me to see as much information on the screen as possible.  I, or the tech-pubs person I hand off to, will worry about layout once I get my story straight and fill out all of my bullet points.  OpenOffice doesn't allow me to edit in this mode.  Why?  What is the advantage to me of seeing two inches of white space and gray void between the bottom of the previous page and the top of the next when I'm writing?  I'm sure people who care mostly about layout are thankful for this, but I am not.

Another example is Konqueror.  Who's bright idea was it to spend thousands upon thousands of development hours to put the worst feature of the Windows '95 File Explorer into KDE?  I never ever want ed to browse the web from within my file browser, and I am mystified that development is still going into this thing.  Konquorer highlights a second problem of OSS design, which is that the big projects tend to play it safe and just copy what Microsoft or Apple did, rather than sit down and do some soul-searching on what kind of interface is really best for the product.

3.  Response to User Feedback.  When OSS programmers do get paid, they are usually paid by their employers/clients to make sure product X has feature Y so that it works with the client's saleable product Z.  If someone has a problem with the product that the developers don't find interesting, they will either ignore the issue, or release an inane explanation of how the issue is not relevant because a clunky workaround exists that will make the user hate the product even more.   For a good example of this, see the documentation for...well, pretty much everything other than the core man pages.

(is 3fingerspointback)

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Re: OSS lacks three critical things:

piggy.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:44:25 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

Another example is Konqueror.  Who's bright idea was it to spend thousands upon thousands of development hours to put the worst feature of the Windows '95 File Explorer into KDE?  I never ever want ed to browse the web from within my file browser, and I am mystified that development is still going into this thing.

The problem might be that you're just thinking of Konqueror the wrong way. It's not really a web browser or a file manager. In reality, it is a universal URL viewer.

The beauty of Konqueror, and KDE in general, is that extends the "everything's a file" concept that worked quite well for Unix to "everything's a URL". Konqueror is as much a media player, PDF viewer, or CD ripper as it is a web browser, based on the MIME type of whatever it retrieves.

What's the reason not to do both of these from one application, if both are going to need a URL bar (you don't only work with local files, do you?), a back button, a stop button, a loading indicator, etc?

7

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Re: OSS lacks three critical things:

profwhat.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:26:39 AM EST

none

I'll give an example:  When I'm using Word to write a tech document, I use the classic infinite-scroll, pagebreaks-denoted-by-dashes view, which allows me to see as much information on the screen as possible.  I, or the tech-pubs person I hand off to, will worry about layout once I get my story straight and fill out all of my bullet points.  OpenOffice doesn't allow me to edit in this mode.

Try View : Web Layout

We expect to be abused as adults in the same way that we were abused as children.  I worked in an office once where they switched from WordPerfect to Word.  The secretaries found Word's View:Normal to be foreign and ugly, and they bitterly bemoaned the loss of "reveal codes."  You can't please everyone; at a certain point, you've got to make your own architecture decisions.

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Re: OSS lacks three critical things:

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:47:54 AM EST

none

I almost cry every time I'm forced to work with Word.. it's got to be the most painfully bad program to use that I've ever encountered. Notepad is all I need.. or Editpad. I prefer Acrobat also... anything over Word... I spend so much time adjusting the setting so that it won't screw up everything I write that I don't actually get anything written..

Tipping Sacred Cows

3

Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

ckm.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 04:05:27 AM EST

5.00 (informative, interesting, informative)

So, I'm a bit biased as I started an open source strategy company six years ago. Our clients have basically been all the large tech companies and a lot of very large end users (including 3 national governments), plus around 30 open source-based startups. One of our notable clients is the Free Standards Group, which just took over the Open Source Development Labs (OSDL) to become the Linux Foundation. I've also been an OSS user and developer for around 20 years or so.

Here's my short list of why open source is still lagging, at least in the business world:

1) Excel - Amazingly, most corporations run on it, and the formulas/macros are very hard to translate to other software. Never mind the re-training issue. This is the very definition of a legacy application....

2) Quicken - What can I say, there really is no substitute for a small business. It's not until you get to stuff like Oracle Financials and SAP that you start to see serious Linux-based accounting... Yes, there are a few niche players and some hosted-stuff, but Quicken is the standard in most places.

3) Outlook - Most people I know live and die by Outlook. Open source desktop calendaring software just sucks for collaborative use, particularly on Windows. Plus, every smart phone can sync to it... Yes, there are some web-based things that are pretty good, but it doesn't help people on planes.

Beside those critical applications, there are also a million other pieces of Windows only software that people rely on every day that are either hard to find for open source platforms or non-existent. And if you are a small to mid-sized business, you don't have a lot of tech resources to find and setup all the OSS that you might need to run your business. If you are an enterprise, the cost of re-training your workforce and refactoring all your policies will exceed cost savings by a large order of magnitude. Never mind business-critical backend applications like RIM's Blackberry Enterprise Server or SAP. Plus, it's hard to get many standard issue laptops to work well (and completely) with Linux.

All that said, OSS is making substantial inroads in companies, but not on the desktop. It's mostly in web-delivered applications such as SugarCRM or dotProject, as well as datacenter stuff. However, in this space, Google, not MSFT, is the biggest threat to OSS apps, as their advertising-subsidized model is cannibalizing open source, web-delivered applications, particularly webmail and calendaring.

Optaros, an Open Source-centric systems integrator based in Boston, has published a good list of applications that businesses should look at for replacing existing commercial apps.

As far as home users go, we actually did a study for a client in 2005 of open source desktop application popularity by geographic region. Not surprisingly, the most popular open source applications by far are peer-to-peer and multimedia applications. And the numbers are astounding, with downloads in the hundreds of millions. And don't forget that most of the Mac OS, as well as pieces of Windows, come from open source.

Personally, I used to carry around a small laptop running Linux. When I bought a new laptop, I switched back to Windows because I could never really get everything working right under Linux and every update broken an endless stream of stuff. Now, I have a laptop that works, although most of the software I run on it is open source. Before you ask, I ran Gentoo and I've been using Linux for 12 years, so it's not like I 'didn't know what I was doing'. Quite the contrary, because I did, I switched.

As a side note, we're actually hosting our second Open Source and business conference in March. We held one last year and the idea is to examine the future of open source in commercial environments.

Oh, and here's my list of OSS apps, just to add to the list:

Dev-PHP - Web application IDE
WAMPserver - Web application platform
VLC - Media player
Putty - Secure remote access via SSH
WinSCP - Secure remote file transfer
Gallery - Web-based image gallery
GeekLog - Blog software
Joomla - Web content management
NetOffice - Web-based client management
RSSOwl - RSS reader
Azureus - BitTorrent client
PeerGuardian - P2P firewall
Blender - 3D design tool
PSI - IM Client
FedoraDS - LDAP server
DimDim - WebEx clone
WebHuddle - WebEx clone
Asterisk - PBX server
GAIM - IM client
CygwinX - XWindows for Windows
Audacity - Audio editor
Jashaka - Video editor
DB Designer - ERD for databases

There's probably a million more apps I use on a daily basis, but I really don't keep track...

Chris.

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Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:53:00 AM EST

none

I can vouch for VLC, Azeurus and GAIM. Those three are better than anything else available of its type. VLC doesn't neeed any codecs.. it runs everything.. just load it and there you go.. Azeurus is constantly running my movie addiction.. and GAIM.. damn DLL Hell... damn it!

Tipping Sacred Cows

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Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

marduk.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:00:21 PM EST

none

Azureus is java crapware.

tnt needs to track moderation. stats page!

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Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

port1080.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:27:32 PM EST

none

Azureus is java crapware

I'm ambiguous about Azureus, but I think calling it "crapware" is going a bit far. While I generally prefer uTorrent, Azureus is (in my experience) better at automatically configuring UPnP and working with various home network setups. Azureus has also made a lot of progress since the earliest versions - as long as you run its most recent version, with the most recent version of the Java runtime, it's pretty stable and does everything you'd want a bittorrent client to do. I also like that it gives you the option to choose whether you'd like to see the basic, intermediate, or advanced configuration options. That's something that VLC does as well, and it's something I think more OSS programs should do.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

20

^ 15

JAVA is teh suxxor for p2p

marduk.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:42:31 PM EST

none

But it takes your CPU & RAM and goes SMASH SMASH SMASH.

Sorta the opposite of µtorrent, really.

tnt needs to track moderation. stats page!

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Re: JAVA is teh suxxor for p2p

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:14:22 PM EST

none

CPU & RAM? there is so much of both these days that it doesn't really matter what you do with them.

Tipping Sacred Cows

19

My theories

profwhat.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:36:00 PM EST

4.50 (astute, brilliant)

My theories for why OSS is not more widely adopted:

  •  Piracy is more widespread than you think.  Consequently, the price advantage Linux has over Windows is not what you think.
  •  Advertising and marketing are more important than you think.  People don't know this stuff is out there and easy to use.
  •  Interoperability is more important than you think.  Everyone is going to be e-mailing you Word documents, and you gotta read those, right?  (Tip:  You can install Microsoft Office in Linux, using Wine).
  •  Human capital is more important than you think.  It's a lot easier to find IT support staff who know Windows than those who know desktop Linux.  Same thing with hiring secretaries.
  •  Brand identity is more important than you think.  This is why people are willing to pay thousands more for an Acura that has fewer features than a tricked-out Honda.  The Linux brand, for me at least, carries the image of a Dennis Kucinich-supporting impoverished college student who writes term papers in Emacs.  (And I like Linux).

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Re: My theories

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:24:57 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

You know what the problem is then? No one can be bothered to make a good GUI for it. OSX is nothing more than a proprietary GUI system... let it be known that I don't consider Mac OS or Windows to be good GUIs... If someone can make a better user interface, no one will care about what it's running in the background (both MS and Apple have proved that).

Tipping Sacred Cows

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Re: My theories

rombuu.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:26:12 PM EST

none

I never understand why the people who make desktops for Linux are always ripping off Windows instead of OS X.  It would be enjoyable to have a system like that that fixed the dumb stuff in OS X.  Maybe not enjoyable enough to run Linux all the time, but it might be a step in the right direction.

35

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Re: My theories

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:00:42 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

Between the two of them, they should be ripping of OSX.. and then trying to make it a hybrid with windows so it will be at least moderately user-friendly (I'm one of those Mac haters who doesn't use it because of the interface).. but c'mon.. they both suck.. they should be trying to make something new.. something better..

Tipping Sacred Cows

21

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Re: My theories

port1080.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:08:25 PM EST

none

* Piracy is more widespread than you think. Consequently, the price advantage Linux has over Windows is not what you think.

Also a big factor here is the fact that the cost of Windows is usually "hidden" in the overall cost of the computer. I don't know the exact numbers, but I doubt that over half of Windows users have ever even purchased an upgrade copy, let alone purchased the full retail copy and done a from-scratch installation.

* Advertising and marketing are more important than you think. People don't know this stuff is out there and easy to use.

No disagreement there. The Mozilla foundation engages in a decent amount of advertising, but I can't think of any other project which advertises to the consumer market. What would really help would be an OSS portal website that featured the best applications in each category in an easy to use format. That way OSS advocates could easily point people to one spot to get started. Anyone have any suggestions of sites that might fulfill that role?

* Interoperability is more important than you think. Everyone is going to be e-mailing you Word documents, and you gotta read those, right? (Tip: You can install Microsoft Office in Linux, using Wine).

I'm not so sure that this is as big of a deal for your average consumer user. It is a big deal in business / publishing, but people that still get by with MS Works or WordPerfect 85 or whatever comes free on computers these days would probably be better served by Open Office or AbiWord. Both of those programs do a better job integrating with Word than most of the basic / bundle solutions out there.

* Human capital is more important than you think. It's a lot easier to find IT support staff who know Windows than those who know desktop Linux. Same thing with hiring secretaries.

Again, true for business (which is, ironically, probably the place that OSS is doing the best), but it doesn't go far in explaining the lack of consumer adoption.

* Brand identity is more important than you think. This is why people are willing to pay thousands more for an Acura that has fewer features than a tricked-out Honda. The Linux brand, for me at least, carries the image of a Dennis Kucinich-supporting impoverished college student who writes term papers in Emacs. (And I like Linux).

I don't know if I buy this...after all, Netscape was the absolute dominant brand in web browsing and IE easily dethroned it. I think that good programs with even just a minimal amount of marketing could make serious inroads against their close source competitors...it's just a matter of getting the word out.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

4

Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

Thalia.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 07:22:42 AM EST

4.00

I use & like Firefox.  But the reason my work computer is still a Windows box is because of file format conversion & printing problems.  My clients send me things in PowerPoint, Visio, and MSWord.  While I can open these files in OpenOffice (except for Visio, for which there is Dia), the formatting gets screwed up 90% of the time.  And I can't afford to spend a bunch of time each revision making sure the formatting is still correct.  I do use Outlook as well, and hate it.  The only advantage is that it syncs with my Treo, using GoodLink.  

Thalia

9

Call me a 'Dabbler'

coquito.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:26:30 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

Yeah, I've had me some OSS. I wouldn't call it a kink, but I like it from time to time.

But seriously...  like, apparently, everyone else here, I use Firefox. At work, on my PC, I use it all the time because I really dislike IE. At home, on my Mac, I use Safari more often. Reason being, honestly, that it looks better. I know that's shallow, but it's true. Since I mostly just surf, it's not a big deal. I use Firefox fairly often though, even on the Mac. It has great plug-ins and does things Safari doesn't do. Some examples: download YouTube videos, chat in Gmail, and block javascripts from sites (that's mostly for when I'm on the PC). Perhaps Safari and IE cover those bases too, but I found it easier to do on Firefox.

I've never used Open Office, but I'm tempted. There's certainly alot I don't like about MSOffice, or at least the 100 year old version I'm running now. My wife is a writer by trade, so she's pretty much sticking to Word unless she feels 100% comfortable she can trade documents with her editors without their being any issues, any at all.

I do use Adium (an IM client), Cyberduck (FTP), PureFTPd Manager (an FTP server), Audacity, Paparazzi, Colloquy (for chat), Taco (an html editor. I love that program) and some others, though I've downloaded scores of OSS programs I never actually use. All the programs named above work great (ok, Audacity crashes sometimes) and for many of them I'd be happy to pay (some take donations, so that's cool).

Which brings me to another point -- at least for Mac, there are tons of great programs at very affordable prices. When I went looking for an RSS aggregator, I decided to pay for NetNewsWire, because it was the best of the programs I'd tried and easily worth the money. It's become the most-used program on my computer lately. I almost bought Scrivener too, but decided I don't really need it, although I think it's a wonderful program (all it needs to make it perfect, imo, is some light word-processing power, like spellcheck). I think alot of people are also not aware of these inexpensive programs, and would use them if they knew, but all you ever hear about is the already established major player.

Of course, this last point is less true if you spend time among the blogging community, especially the sectors populated by lots of developers and other techie types. In response to the comment about OSS programs being aimed at developers, I think that is somewhat true, but is not always a detriment. It's great for people who are just barely tech-savvy, like myself. I didn't know much about FTP but managed to get a server set up on my computer using PureFTPd Manager anyway. And now I know more about how FTP works. No, it wasn't exactly "plug-n-play" simple, but it wasn't what I'd term "aimed at developers." Ditto a bunch of the other programs listed above. And many of them have been very helpful with questions, either directly or through the faqs and boards they almost always have on their sites.

There are also, kind of in the same vein as OSS programs, some great free sites that I think are worth mentioning. Backpack (www.backpackit.com) is the best organizational tool I've used in a long time. And it's perfectly free.

p.s. - sorry for the lack of links. I'm at work.

Now with caps!

5

Built for the developer not for the user

wetkarma.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 08:44:37 AM EST

2.75 (astute)

All you need to know about open source is best understood by comparing OSS to Apple's software vs. Windows.

Windows is the default (for various legacy business reasons).

Apple has carved out an enduser niche by making their software work the way the user intuitively expects it to.

OSS developers make their software work by doing things they want to do. Few end user wants the same values as a  high level oss coder -- someone who is extremely comfortable with the command line and generally disdains a gui interfance. Marketing? A foreign concept. Usability design? Mere mumbo-jumbo.

OSS had its shot and failed. Its like brazil..perpetually the software of the future. Anything that is built for mass adoption is unlikely to be produced from the OSS community. (Firefox is the counter example that proves the rule.)

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

6

^ 5

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

profwhat.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:07:44 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant, astute)

OSS had its shot and failed.

You posted this to a web server that is running Linux server, using Apache, running Scoop, with modifications in Perl, talking to a MySQL database, and I read it on a 8-year-old laptop running Ubuntu and Firefox.  

8

^ 6

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rombuu.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:26:49 AM EST

none

I think he meant on a standard user's computer, not some developer machine.  I mean heck I use Tomcat, Apache, Ant, Eclipse, a few other tools at work.  But at home?  OS X and Windows and I think Firefox is the only open source app.   Why bother?  None of them bring anything that great to the table where it is worth messing around with them.  

And as someone who writes code for a living -- that gets sold for lots of money, I don't like Stalman's batshit crazy ideas anyway.

29

^ 6

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

wetkarma.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:06:48 PM EST

none


You posted this to a web server that is running Linux server, using Apache, running Scoop, with modifications in Perl, talking to a MySQL database, and I read it on a 8-year-old laptop running Ubuntu and Firefox.  

Ok pilgrim, I'll see your snark and raise you.

TnT has around 600 users. What percentage is using IE vs everything else. I'll even spot you the firefox windows users. Of COURSE OSS has seen huge success in the server space -- end user interaction is driven by website design.

My comment however was talking about end users. The home and to a lesser extent the business desktop environment.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Built for the developer not for the user

profwhat.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:08:39 PM EST

none

Apparently about 22 percent of our hits are coming from IE.

This is a big deal.  The web browser is not just another application; it's often the most used, most important application, with WP and e-mail close behind.  If you ask Microsoft's antitrust lawyers, they'll even tell you that it is part of the operating system.  When so many people start using OSS for such an important application, you have to admit that this means of creating and maintaining software is workable and potentially more effective than closed-source models.

40

^ 32

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rombuu.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:28:46 PM EST

none

When so many people start using OSS for such an important application, you have to admit that this means of creating and maintaining software is workable and potentially more effective than closed-source models.

Effective?  You know the US put a man on the moon faster than the time elapsed between when they open sourced Netscape and a decent browser came out of that effort?  (Yes, yes, I know, they farted around with the Netscape source, essentially tossed it all out, started over, released the crappy Mozilla thing, then finally took the stripped down version of that to start Phoenix /Firebird / Firefox (remember that fiasco?)).

Anyway, Dr Lunch gets about 65% IE users, and I think it tilts heavily toward geeky programmers.  I think IE has about 90% mkt share overall still.  

It's nice when you are doing intranet development and can just dictate what the user will use.  Saves a lot of testing time.

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Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rEvolution inAction.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 01:20:11 AM EST

none

It's changing.. I was telling people about firefox when it first came out.. and no one is listening.. now they are all using it.. and they don't even know why they decided to switch.

Tipping Sacred Cows

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^ 40

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

Thalia.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:46:05 AM EST

none

Facts are hard for you, aren't they.  

In March 1998, Netscape released most of the code base for Communicator under an open source license.   Firefox 1.0 was released on November 9, 2004.   So all together 6 years, 8 months.  The Space Race started in October 1957 and the moon landing occured in in July 1969.  That would be... 11 years, 9 months.  Just about twice as long as the time from the intial open source release of Netscape until Firefox 1.0.  Even if you assume that the race started with Kennedy's speech May 25, 1961, that's 8 years, 2 months.  In other words, you're just wrong.  And realistically, Firefox 0.7 was stable and an excellent browser.

As to market share, IE's marketshare is under 80% despite the fact that it comes pre-installed with every Windows system, and cannot be uninstalled.  http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=0

Thalia

50

^ 49

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rombuu.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:25:44 AM EST

none

I was going from Kennedy's Man on The Moon speech for starters.

Firefox 1.0 had too many issues to call it done, no matter what version number they slap on it.  For that matter the 2.0 version eats too much memory.  A freakin' web browser doesn't need a quarter of a gig of RAM after a few hours of operation, period.  I don't care if they are caching web pages in memory...  for those of us who switch between apps I don't need the delay whenever I do a context switch to wait for everything to swap into and out of Virtual Memory.

But so even if you think the timing is wrong, open source produced a browser that is marginally better in only 6+ years.  Wow.  I'm underwhelmed.  

And I'm well aware of how IE is shipped, thanks.  You know, Notepad comes with every windows install too, but somehow plenty of work processors are sold every year.  If a better product is out there and / or the free one sucks, it's really irrelevant.  

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^ 50

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

shane.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:33:30 AM EST

none

I'm using firefox 1.04 still and it works just about perfectly.  It keeps me happy enough tthat I don't even want to spend the 5 minutes it would take me to download the new copy and install it...

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^ 50

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rEvolution inAction.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:22:37 PM EST

none

You know, Notepad comes with every windows install too, but somehow plenty of work processors are sold every year.  If a better product is out there and / or the free one sucks, it's really irrelevant.
Notepad is a text editor, not a word processor. For those of us who would use Notepad (a great program, probably my favourite MS program of all time) we prefer better ones, such as Editpad.. or Notepad +, or Notespad.. I still use notepad daily.. it's much better than it was at first.. ever since they got rid of the 32Kb overflow error (originally it would crash if you tried to load a file larger than 32Kb).  But still.. don't confuse Notepad with Word.. they are two much different types of application.

Tipping Sacred Cows

53

^ 49

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rEvolution inAction.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:17:05 PM EST

none

As to market share, IE's marketshare is under 80% despite the fact that it comes pre-installed with every Windows system, and cannot be uninstalled.
That's the part that pisses me off.

Tipping Sacred Cows

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^ 53

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

marduk.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:46:09 PM EST

none

It's useful.

Think of an OS from a developer's perspective. It's basically a big library of APIs. IE APIs provide web browsing services to other parts of the OS and to 3rd party developers.

Re-using core components of IE is good software design for MS (and sometimes for 3rd party developers- for instance Quicken uses IE APIs and won't run if IE is forcibly removed), independent of the marketing leverage it may or may not grant. IIRC there are applications that do the same thing with the firefox code base. It's not cost effective in the majority of cases to re-invent the wheel.

tnt needs to track moderation. stats page!

57

^ 56

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rEvolution inAction.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:50:57 PM EST

none

other parts of the OS and to 3rd party developers.
Like spyware....

Other than that, I agree with what you are saying.. I just wish you could remove all the non-core components of IE...

Tipping Sacred Cows

44

^ 5

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

ckm.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:22:26 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Actually, in Brazil, OSS is incredibly popular.  Most schools, and the entire election system, are using it. Seriously, though, it's not really the interfaces that suck, it's other things that are slowing desktop adoption of open source.  The fact that MSFT has basically locked up every major PC distributor and device maker (through OEM deals and driver development support) as means that there is a lot of inertia to switching.  

There are some really, really wonderful GUI's out there that rival Mac and Windows interfaces in terms of functionality and ease of use.  That's not really the issue, the problem is lack of certain key apps and format translations (see Thalia's post above).  Things like Excel and Project, not to mention expensive applications like SolidWorks, are really, really hard to replace.  If the Windows emulator WINE http://www.winehq.com/ (or it's commercial equivalent by Codeweavers) ever gets good enough to run Win apps seamlessly, that would help a lot.

Even on Windows, however, there are a lot of very usable Open Source applications like RSSowl and others.  And if that's not enough, Motorola, NEC, Samsung and others have announced a consortium to build Linux (aka Open Source) based mobile phones.   Motorola has already shipped a significant number of Linux phones in China, and they have really cool features like business card recognition (e.g. take a picture of a business card and it will do OCR to insert the information into your address book....).

The places where open source shows it's real strength are in things that are completely invisible to most people, like servers and embedded systems (more than a few Linksys devices have Linux in them...).  But companies like SugarCRM, which makes sales force automation software similar to salesforce.com, shows that open source is viable at every level, from datacenter, to desktop to embedded systems.

Chris.

61

^ 44

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

Shy Elf.

Thu Feb 15, 2007 at 07:49:53 PM EST

3.00 (interesting)

I actually feel even more strongly about the importance of WINE to the eventual success of Linux.  As has been mentioned, most people have some Windows-only applications that they can't do without easily, and a fully functional version of WINE, even one relying on the Windows DLLs would result in a lot more people moving to Linux.  The success of Linux in servers and embedded systems is really a reflection of the lack of this requirement, because embedded systems have one function to preform, and servers have only a few programs which they need to run, and as long as they can run these it doesn't matter that they can't run Windows programs.

I've never cared at all for the Linux GUIs.  X was really designed to serve as a graphical terminal program, and I've never liked the way it allowed programs to build up large amounts of graphics which had already been output to X but not yet displayed.  When the system is busy, this creates lag for the user.

As long as you're relying on volunteers to write your code, of course you're going wind up with code which is written primarily to meet the demands of developers and not users.  That's just part of the disadvantage that free software has to overcome.  Even more significant is the manpower advantage, that Microsoft can afford throwing many paid programmers at every problem.

Free software is supposed to have the advantages of turning more users into developers, by allowing them to easily fix things that they don't like about the programs they are using, and by allowing easy sharing of code so that people don't need to keep reinventing the wheel.  I don't really see most of the current free software taking anywhere as good advantage of these advantages as it could.  The source code locations aren't standardized enough across distributions, leading to compilation errors, and coding styles are opaque and repetitive (for example, it takes most of a page of code just to open one window in X), and this greatly reduces of the number of users who help with the coding.

I can't help but wonder what would happen if a few large governments switched to free software and started paying developers half as much as they were paying Microsoft to fix any problems they find with it.

10

^ 5

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:41:44 AM EST

none

Ummm.. Apple lost the battle to OSS and now sells itself as a operating system.. but it's really just a fancy GUI over a Linux disty... MySQL what can I say.. it's great. Apache runs tha intarweb.. without OSS we wouldn't have Wikipedia.. the most used mailing software (sendmail) is open source, as is the majority of DNS servers (BIND)... just look here and see what's out there.

Tipping Sacred Cows

17

^ 10

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

3fingerspointback.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:45:57 PM EST

none

Just a nitpick--OS X is actually built on a BSD distro, not Linux.  Still open source, but slightly less source-compatable with LInux, depending on how well you've used UNIX/POSIX functions.

(is 3fingerspointback)

23

^ 17

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:13:52 PM EST

none

You know.. I was using FreeBSD before I ever touched Linux.. and never realised that BSD wasn't a linux flavour...

Tipping Sacred Cows

33

^ 5

Re: Built for the developer not for the user

jwb.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:53:55 PM EST

none

I guess you are getting modded down for that obnoxious last paragraph, but your lead was correct.  Open Source Software evolves to suit its authors.  Linux, for example, is the ultimate platform for the development and distribution of itself.

The corollary is that nobody cares what your opinion is unless you are a contributor.  People like to whine and moan that they don't like this or that feature of some open source application, but why should the developers care?  They will only implement features which make them happy or attract more or better contributors.  Everybody else will just be ignored.

1

Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

snwodttam.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:16:55 AM EST

none

What's holding OSS back?  First a foremost is name recognition.  Let's take Firefox as an example of the most well known of the OSS alternatives listed above.  Dollars to donuts, your average computer user could not tell you what it is.  And I bet a large portion of the people who do know what Firefox is, don't use it for some reason or another (more on that in a moment).  I would guess that it's even worse for programs like Open Office and The Gimp.

The second thing standing in the way of OSS adoption is your average user's inability or lack-of-desire to learn something new.  IE comes with Windows, I know how to use IE, therefore why try something new and unfamiliar?  With something as easy to use as a web-browser, trying to convert users to something as big and complex as Open Office or The Gimp faces even tougher challenges.  Also, the availability of pirated versions of MS Office and Photoshop compound the problem.

Don't take this the wrong way, though.  I love OSS.  I use Firefox, Thunderbird, Gaim (a nice chat client that supports most chat protocols, including Messenger, Yahoo, AOL, Jabber, etc) on my Windows partition.  While, most of my time (read: when not playing games) is spent in a Linux environment: OpenSUSE 10.2 on my main computer and Damn Small Linux on my ancient 400mhz Celeron laptop.  I also tell everyone I can about OSS alternatives.  But the thing is I have to tell everyone about it.  Rarely do I run into someone who already knows that Open Office is a viable, free alternative to MS Office for the home computer (whether or not Open Office is ready to replace MS Office in the business environment, though, is another thread in and of itself).

11

^ 1

Re: Once You Go OSS You Never Go Back

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:44:23 AM EST

none

I'm stuck in DLL hell so I can't use GAIM.. I'm running MSN now.. and it hurts.. right in my soul it hurts.. I miss GAIM.. but I need Perl more than I need GAIM... so....

Tipping Sacred Cows

16

Who uses OSS on TnT?

3fingerspointback.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 12:43:05 PM EST

none

Quite a few of the posters here talk about using firefox, so I took a look at our stats page to see what the breakdown is.

The site is accessed 60% of the time by "Mozilla 5.0" agents, which almost always means Firefox and Safari.  22% of the time it's Internet Explorer, and the rest is almost all bot clients, with the exception of what appears to be exactly one Opera user (.4%).

(is 3fingerspointback)

18

^ 16

Re: Who uses OSS on TnT?

port1080.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 01:06:10 PM EST

none

with the exception of what appears to be exactly one Opera user (.4%). That's probably me - I use Opera on an old Pentium II (running Windows 98) computer in my office at work. It's the only thing that loads with respectable speed on that machine. Opera is one of those programs that I always think I should want to use (it's fast, it's free, it's standards compliant, etc), but it just doesn't "feel" right to me for some reason. When I want to use a feature on FireFox, odds are I can find it right away, intuitively. With Opera, half the time I have to dig through the help manual just to figure out a very basic function. It's a shame, because it really is the "best written" browser out there. It runs quite well on machines that would choke on any other modern browser.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

22

^ 18

Re: Who uses OSS on TnT?

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:11:58 PM EST

none

I'm sitting here with 2 pcs side by side, this one is using firefox, the other Opera.. I loved Opera and refused to use anythign else until firefox came along.. but Opera still has some feature that firefox doesn't... like a usable session saver (the firefox plug-in as broken by an upgrade).. i think i need to upgrade Opera by 2 or 3 version numbers, but it's still the best browser I've seen (firefox... i just don't like the ads in Opera..).

Tipping Sacred Cows

26

^ 22

Re: Who uses OSS on TnT?

port1080.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:34:28 PM EST

none

i think i need to upgrade Opera by 2 or 3 version numbers, but it's still the best browser I've seen (firefox... i just don't like the ads in Opera..).

You definitely need to upgrade Opera. The newest versions do not have ads in them. Opera struck a deal with Google where Google gave them a few million $$ in exchange for Opera making Google the default search engine. After that, they dropped the ads and made the browser completely free.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

27

^ 26

Re: Who uses OSS on TnT?

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:42:41 PM EST

none

well goodbye firefox then... hmmm.. I'm getting just about the weirdest error on install I've ever seen.. it's trying to connect to a network location (on this pc, not the one i'm installing it on).. in the default 'My Pics' directory of 'My Document'.. neither of which I've used.. ever.. sincec it can't connect.. it then decides to abort.. I'm going to try downloading the installer again, because that's the oddest thing I've ever seen.

Tipping Sacred Cows

28

^ 27

Re: Who uses OSS on TnT?

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 02:50:21 PM EST

none

There we gp.. much nicer. thanks.

Tipping Sacred Cows

34

^ 16

Re: Who uses OSS on TnT?

dzetetes.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 05:55:28 PM EST

none

The Opera stat could also be me.  I use Firefox at home, but I use IE and Opera at work.

In regione caecorum, rex est luscus.

30

I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

permazorch.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 03:25:39 PM EST

none

With Windows, there are some great and helpful sites out there, like pc mechanic and this one for sensitive souls. Now, I'm aware that within these sights, there are linux subset advice threads, but the majority of users are Windows Vets (and all-too-familiar with the problems inherent).

The Ubuntu forums just flat-out aren't very helpful. Which sucks, and inhibits the spread of the Open Source meme. Gee, those people are kind of jerks, guess I'll stick with shit people are empathetic about, 'eh?

Every little thing I've got going on my Ubuntu box requires me to search & frequently (7 times out of 10, say) ask for assistance, from a wireless card to USB drivers.

I make a lot of flyers & ads with Adobe. I would gladly use OSS for this work, if the equivalent existed. I haven't seen it, unlike just about everything else. Clues, anyone? Open Office doesn't count, by the way.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

36

^ 30

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 06:03:37 PM EST

none

Adobe... acrobat? photoshop? elements?

Tipping Sacred Cows

37

^ 36

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

permazorch.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 09:48:18 PM EST

none

Sorry, Adobe Pagemaker 7.0 is what I use.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

38

^ 37

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

coquito.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:03:53 PM EST

none

Agh!!

Pagemaker... Oh, the horror... I only say this because I work in magazine publishing, where "Pagemaker" tends to be either the punchline to a joke, or a spittle-laced expletive.  :D

Now with caps!

39

^ 38

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:09:02 PM EST

none

I'd forgotten that program even existed.. now I'm going to have to start all over again!

Tipping Sacred Cows

41

^ 38

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

permazorch.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 10:54:01 PM EST

none

Dig it.
So, show me the way, sensei. I'm used to it, but I know there has to be better out there. What's the open source analog?

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

43

^ 38

Scribus, Inkscape

ckm.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:05:06 PM EST

none

[this time with proper formatting and title]

You should try Scribus http://www.scribus.net/
Or
Inkscape http://www.inkscape.org/

Chris.

42

^ 37

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

ckm.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:03:49 PM EST

none

You should try Scribus http://www.scribus.net/ Or Inkscape http://www.inkscape.org/ Chris.

45

^ 42

Re: I want to be a fanatic OSS user but,

permazorch.

Mon Feb 12, 2007 at 11:39:59 PM EST

none

Cool. Thanks!

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

47

OSS I use

3fingerspointback.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:27:54 AM EST

none

After my gripe upthread, it seems fitting that I should detail the OSS that I'm actually using.  Stuff with a star is stuff I'd recommend to anyone.

At Work:
*Firefox for wasting time
gVim for text editing
Tera Term to talk over serial ports
putty to talk over the network
*Filezilla as an FTP client
My employer's IDE tool, which is based off of Eclipse.
Cygwin, which is distributed as part of a commercial tool we use.

At home:
*Firefox for surfing the web
Thunderbird for email.  No star, because it's a little slow for an email client.
*Azureus bittorrent client.  Bulky but hey, gotta represent my Eclipse buds.
*OpenOffice.org for document and spreadsheets
MoneyManagerEx to get my life in order (still beta, no star yet)
gVim for text editing
*Inkscape to make the TnT logo
*GIMP for image manipulation
*VLC media player when QuickTime and DivX player doesn't work (I like DivX player better than VLC because I find it more intuitive, and it seems to have better performance than WMP when my computer is busy)

(is 3fingerspointback)

55

^ 47

Re: OSS I use

rEvolution inAction.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 12:25:15 PM EST

none

Thunderbird for email.  No star, because it's a little slow for an email client.
Is Eudora making its email program free for individual users yet? That was always the best email client available.. in fact if I could find a copy of the old free version they had I would use that in place of any available 'new' email program simply because of the fact that it was more customizable than any other email client.

Tipping Sacred Cows

52

tnt!

shane.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 10:34:54 AM EST

none

In case anyone didn't know, treesandthings.com is run on opensource software - linux, apache, mysql, perl and scoop...  

58

Songbird

1fastdog.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:24:44 PM EST

none

Anyone here use Songbird? Seems like it's a pretty cool combination music player/web browser. I've debated grabbing it, but for whatever reason just never got around to it. There's a tutorial on how to use it here.
Thoughts?

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

59

^ 58

Re: Songbird

port1080.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 02:31:07 PM EST

none

I gave it a shot when it first came out, but it seemed very buggy, and an even bigger resource hog than iTunes. This was on Windows XP - can't comment on how it runs on other platforms. It's one of those programs that I've set aside in my head as something I want to try again later (FireFox was in that category for a long time, but now it's my full-time browser), but right now I don't feel like it's ready for prime time, especially considering that iTunes, Winamp, and Windows Media Player all provide roughly the same capabilities, and they're all free as well.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

60

^ 58

Re: Songbird

permazorch.

Tue Feb 13, 2007 at 03:40:21 PM EST

none

It looks cute, but firefox already has a nifty add-on music thingy-bop.

Maybe on an expendable system (at work). I'll let you know in a few days.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

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