Proving once again that beauty is in the eye of the (in a tip of the hat to our other running thread) beer holder. I would rather crap on my own face than be trapped in a room with Kate Winslet for five minutes and I would certainly do any of the MILFs in the Dove ads that I have seen first.

To me, Dove's ad campaign needs to be seen on a couple of different levels. First of all, it should be acknowledged that is a load of bullshit just designed to get certain customers to like them more. But, it's also emblamatic of the nichification of American culture were it's increasingly more okay for everyone to be okay with who they are (so long as they fit into one of the pre-conceived niches). So it is "good" to see people of varrying shapes and looks be socially accepted to the extent that one holds such cultural definitions important.

escalators never fail; they just become stairs

Cripes, either there's an epidemic of hyperbole around here, or you have some nasty scat fetish.  

Nothing against the elder;y women in Dove's campaign, but one lady got some hanging belly flaps and another looks like she's eaten a few too many geritol.  Nothing wrong with that, mind you.  All those old biddies would be very popular at the nursing home, and they are not ugly.  

As for your Kate Winslet comment, you are sufficiently discredited by your own words.  Ms Winslet is a beautiful actress.  

Bog's drooping balls, nmiguy, you sometimes perch yourself so far out on tenuous limb that it's hard not pick you off like the saggiest of fruit.

As has been pointed out to you elsewhere here, your insistence on equating "beauty" with "I want to fuck it" is mind-numbingly simple-minded.  If you'd think with your big head for a moment you might be able to consider that for most adults (and people even younger!) the word "beauty" denotes far, far more than an urge to hump.

Your arguments so far in this thread are gruesomely similar to the niminy-piminy nincompoops of the faith-based crowd in the w/u who decry any kind of skin exposure as "sinful."  That the human form, in all its complexities, ages, and diversity, can be considered beautiful without having a priapic urge is beyond their, and your, ken.  And that, my friend, is well and truly one ugly outlook.  

And that, my friend, is well and truly one ugly outlook.  

You're welcome, my friend.  You see, ugliness has no age limit either.  But you'll never hear someone say "Man, that's ONE ugly baby!"  Because babies and youth are considered beautiful.  Age and unhealthiness are not pleasant on the eyes, most times.  And I tell you, I am not particularly attracted to the ultra young.  I like em with a few years on em.  I think a mature beauty is awesome.  I also know that as we age, a lot of that just goes away.  The claim "beauty has no age limit" is pretty pathetic.  I know beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  But the beholder seldom goes looking for it in a nursing home.  I know that because I have spent a lot of time in my youth volunteering at nursing homes.  Most people don't go near those places unless they have to, or unless their parents are housed there.  So get off your high horse, keta, unless you spend your free time aprpeciating the beauty at your local nursing home.  Unless of course you'd like to concede that I speak some of the nasty truth, that getting old just plain sucks.  I can appreciate lots of beauty in this world, and I tend to look for the beauty in people first.  Doesn't mean I want to fuck it just because its beautiful.  But beauty IS something we want to look at.  Unless you go about buying up pictures of naked old people, I'd say you're probably blowing some hot air and have unrighteous indignation at my words.  

Your obtuseness sometimes astounds, nmiguy.

Here's a question.

Are your grandmothers beautiful?

Are your grandmothers beautiful?

Nope, they are dead.  Hey they may have been gorgeous.  My maternal grandmother had 16 babies in her lifetime.  My paternal grandmother had 13 kids.  Let's just say that many kids and the wear and tear was NOT kind to those women.  I loved them, but they were pretty old and unhealthy and few people would call them "beautiful" at least appearance wise.  Their beautiful days were way back in the 1930's and 40's.  I am not bad mouthing my grannies either.  I'm sure they were wonderful people.  And at one time they must have been attractive enough.  In the old photos I have seen when they were young, I was not "impressed" by their beauty.  

And guess what, when I am old like that, I don't expect to be "beautiful" either.  So I'll just enjoy my beauty while I got it, because it ain't gonna last!

But I'm quite certain your grandmothers are wicked beautiful.  Hawt!

One more thing, in a discussion about beauty, it fascinates me how you can start off your comment with "bog's drooping balls, nmiguy".  Hey to each their own.  Beauty truly IS in the eyes of the beholder...

There's something real scary about a huge person shouting "GET IN MY BELLY!" and "I want my baby back baby back baby back..."

LOL... Oh god... this was on last night and I caught the scene where Fat Bastard is laying in bed with Heather "Golden" Graham. I almost tossed my cookies. Point conceded.

Now with caps!

Okay, I too have seen the nudist thing.  And I saw some okay older heavier women.  But I also have worked in an operating room, and I have seen MANY naked people of all ages and sizes.  Many of them were not fit to look at, they were there for operations, so that should tell you a bit about health and hygeine right there.  

I think most people have something that is beautiful, something to be proud of.  That being said, I refuse to jump on the bandwagon and start claiming grandmas are all beautiful.  That is a lie.  

I know telling the truth makes me a target here, keta called me obtuse and even asked if my own grannies were beautiful.  The nude form is nude for a reason, a statement of physical comeliness.  And no, I don't have the hots for my dead grannies.  There ARE exceptional beauties like Sophia Loren or Helen Mirren.  But don't go telling me Agnes the depends wearing chain smoker is beautiful.  I mean she friggin almost killed my auntie at Bingo, and ther sailor mouth has nothing redeeming at all.  

I know telling the truth makes me a target here, keta called me obtuse and even asked if my own grannies were beautiful.

You're a good guy, nmiguy, so I'm going to try and make my point one final time.

You've been all over this thread telling us what you consider beauty.  You call this, "telling the truth,"  but it's your truth, period.  

My point is that your vision of beauty is NOT everyone's vision of beauty.  Why is it so hard for you to understand that an elderly man or woman can look at a peer and see beauty?  That I could once look at my (now-deceased) octogenarian grandmother and see a beautiful woman?  That beauty encompasses not just aesthetic, but also intellectual and moral senses?  That beauty is predicated on much, much more than a fuckabilty scale?  I mean, who are you to be preaching to us all about what encompasses beauty?  And (to come back to the topic at hand) why, oh why, have you so completely bought in to what popular culture preaches as "beauty."?

But don't go telling me Agnes the depends wearing chain smoker is beautiful.  I mean she friggin almost killed my auntie at Bingo, and ther sailor mouth has nothing redeeming at all.

Dear Agnes is no beauty in my eyes, either.  But you just have to know that someone, somewhere, who's always had a thing for the "dirty girl" thinks she's the cat's pajamas.  And you know what?  Thank Bog that we all continue to have our own vision of what represents beauty, because as that renowned romantic Franz Kafka once riffed, "Anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old."

Your final point IS well taken.  I mean I totally understand the concept of "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".  But this article is about older and heavier women doing nude ads to hock some soap.  We're not talking about the fringe element that sees wrinkles and chubs as sexy.  

None of these women are ugly.  And to some they are "beautiful".  But as you say your octogenarian grandmother is a beautiful woman, that is quite different from saying you wouldn't mind seeing her nude in an advertisement.  By your description of beautiful, my deceased grannies were beautiful too.  But not in a physical yeah I want to see them in a Dove commercial kind of way.  Which is the topic of the discussion.  Maybe some old cat, maybe my grandfathers wouldn't mind looking at my grannies in the buff.  But when we talk about advertising beauty and nudity, the vast VAST majority of males of ANY age would want to look at Scarlett Johansen in the buff rather than Kathy Bates.  THAT is the truth i was talking about.  Not just my perception of beauty, but what are beauty standards.  

The beauty standards are really quite universal across all cultures that use advertising.  These standards have changed over the centuries.  If you are advertising and using the female body as a means of advertising, you want a healthy looking body.  Obesity and lots of flab and wrinkles does not meet that standard.  In real life, it may be fine and acceptable.  But in advertising, it won't really fly.  Faces, they should be comely as well.  Few wringles, no acne, stunning eyes, full lips.  Nicely kept hair, good make up.  These are beauty standards in advertising.  Again, in real life, it shouldn't bother most men to roll over in the morning and look at their significant other wrinkles and mussed hair, no makeup, blemishes and see beauty.  

What you were talking about keta is entirely different than what this campaign is about.  Is there an age limit on beauty?  Well there is for "advertising beauty" and in life in general, you can get to a certain age where only your loved ones will see your physical beauty.  That is quite different.  

Thanks for the reasoned comeback, nmiguy.

There is one hitch to that comeback.

Who is the target audience for this ad campaign? Is it the guy who wants only to see only a vision of someone he'd like to bed? Or is it women, of all stripes, who are the ones who will decide whether or not to buy the product? Plus, IIRC, the women in these ads, while not hewing to the normal (which is anything but)  standard of we may be used to in the media, are hardly, IMO, repulsive.

Who is the target audience for this ad campaign?

Even though they really need to lose 15-20.

Sure. Companies count on that disconnect.

But don't forget the age factor also. The target audience, at least for this particular campaign, is older women who will see the ad and think, "Hey, I may not be a 20-something, but I can still be attractive."

"Hey, I may not be a 20-something, but..."

I don't know. I saw older women. Reread the title of this write-up. :-)

How old do you think they are?

I'm looking at the women in the "real beauty" link. I would estimate they range from high 40s to mid or upper 60s.

Ah, got it. I didn't see any women on that webpage until I enabled Javascript.

Good point, Sue.  The standards are variable to a degree as per what audience you are marketing toward.  I suppose the question is, how variable should that standard be?  I mean, if the Golden Girls are going to advertise for Polydent, Vitamins, Insurance, or medications for older folks, we would probably expect Rue McClanahan to be fully clothed.  But I can never recall seeing ANY advertisements for elderly fashions.  So there is NO market for elderly models that are scantily clad.  Dove seems to have tapped a hidden market, a market for a product (soap) that everyone uses, and they want to specifically target older women, telling them that they can be as beautiful as these carefully selected older models if they use this soap.  That is a new standard of beauty.  

The controversy about the nude models should be taken a bit more seriously, even young and beautiful models, when shown naked create a stir.  Indecency, exploitation etc.  In this particular case the ads are a bit misleading.  "Beauty has no age limit" sounds like a fact, when it is maybe a disingenuous opinion at best.  And there is this conceptual idea underlying it that these models represent the "average woman" who looks normal, and that although they are older, and heavier, they are still beautiful.  I would bet dollars to donuts that Dove didn't just select random women from the local malls and bingo parlors for their ad campaign.  They selected exceptional models that were older and a little heavier than the fashion standard.  That is deceptive.  

Since you brought up the target audience, what do women want to see in their ads?  What do you want to see, Sue in a Dove ad?  I have no idea, and I am curious as to what you would prefer to see.  

But I can never recall seeing ANY advertisements for elderly fashions.  So there is NO market for elderly models that are scantily clad.  Dove seems to have tapped a hidden market, a market for a product (soap) that everyone uses...

Whether or not I agree with nudity in ANY ad aside, at least this campaign is for a product that people use when unclothed.

I would bet dollars to donuts that Dove didn't just select random women from the local malls and bingo parlors for their ad campaign.  They selected exceptional models that were older and a little heavier than the fashion standard.  That is deceptive.  

Welcome to the world of advertising. Why would Dove be any different? They chose attractive models who were slightly out of the "norm," which as I said, is really not the norm anyway. Perhaps these models allow a larger number of women to see themselves as approaching a level of beauty or at least acceptance, even if they themselves may be much heavier or much more aged than the Dove models.

As for what I like to see in ads? I like witty ones that are less obviously pandering to any group. Right now, one of my favorites is for Verizon, I think it is: A family of four is sitting around the dinner table. They ask the daughter who her "favorite 5" people are for her free calls, and she lists five girls' names. Then they ask the son, and he says the same five girls because "Your friends are HAWT." The daughter looks disgusted in a way that only a teen girl can look and asks her parents"Are you going to do anything???" The mother sort of shrugs, and the dad says "Maybe you should have uglier friends." The timing and the expressions here are impeccable.

T-Mobile's "Hot Friends": http://www.myfaves.com/tv-commercials.html

Ha ha!  I have not seen that commercial but it sounds like a riot!  Last night my wife and I were watching television and saw a commercial that made us laugh,

This one.