Business

From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

tomc.

Posted to Business on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 10:31:41 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

It seems it was only yesterday that the Chunnel, the underground, underwater tunnel that connects England to France was opened.  Now, some dreamy-eyed entrepreneurs are seriously pitching a tunnel connecting Alaska and Kamchatka across the Bering Strait.  

The engineering is daunting yet doable: 68 miles of tunnel in water up to 180 feet deep.  At a cost of $65 billion, it will take 20 years to build.  It is over twice the length of the Chunnel.

Alaska to Kamchatka?  How about Guatemala City to Edinburgh?

The economic benefits are palpable: ground transportation from America to Asia and Europe (provided you can obtain all the necessary visas).  A boon for transportation and tourism.  A route for 3% of the entire world's cargo.

But are there other costs?  What will be the impact of the increase in fossil-fueled transportation in such a fragile environment?  Not to mention the massive railroad construction that would have to be done in order to join rails through Siberia and from Alaska through British Columbia?

Planners are already talking about the multiple uses of the route - for oil and gas pipelines, electricity and fiber-optic corridors.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by tomc, Alaska, Russia, tunnel (all tags)

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2

Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

MC Nally.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 12:03:25 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, brilliant, astute)

I don't see why we need this, there's already a dotted line there on the Risk board.

More seriously though..  Once you connect the two landmasses, then what?

It's not like either Alaska OR Kamchatka have extensive highway & rail systems that can be easily connected to carry traffic between the two for year-round commerce.  The landfalls would be in some of the most remote, undeveloped, and climatically forbidding regions of the two continents (very much unlike the Chunnel, which connects two very well developed and populous nations, naturally reinforcing close commercial ties between the two national capitals.

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

thefadd.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 12:49:48 PM EST

none

It's a fantastic idea and if it happened in my lifetime, I'd almost certainly want to see it. To be able to travel so "easily" to Russia would be very cool. But beyond the chunnel, you're right, the infrastructure on either side just isn't there and seems rather prohibitive. Maybe once you have the chunnel, you'll get the infrastructure but that's just it -- maybe.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

nmiguy.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 03:28:59 PM EST

none

One other complication, isn't that area on a huge fault?  If there is a huge earthquake or something, that tunnel would be easily destroyed, wouldn't it?  

Still, it may be easier to visit Attu.  

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

rEvolution inAction.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 08:56:24 PM EST

none

California happens to be on a huuge fault line and it doesn't stop them.

Tipping Sacred Cows

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

thefadd.

Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 02:48:11 AM EST

none

At least 2 or 3 major ones, I believe, although that big long one looks like it might be the one that extends up through Alaska so it could be 6 of one 3 dozen of the other.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

7

Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

jwb.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:19:52 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

We don't even have rail connecting our major cities.  How can anyone think a tunnel to Siberia is a good idea?  You could use the same $65bn to build a complete high speed rail network in California, Oregon, and Washington, with change left over, and that would be far more valuable.

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

tomc.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:26:50 PM EST

none

Now, that sounds like Communism to me.

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

thefadd.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 06:49:55 PM EST

none

Stop making sense, man. Just stop it! We don't even have a train that goes all the way across Los Angeles because the rich people are afraid it will bring the poor people to them.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

9

Doing the impossible

Lou.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:36:52 PM EST

4.33 (funny, funny)

A man sits contemplating the rugged coastline in Alaska when he sees an ornate bottle wash ashore.  When he opens it, an enormous genie billows out and says, "your wish is my command!".

The man tells to the genie to build a tunnel between Alaska and Siberia.  The genie shrugs and says, "no can do...the political and technical risks are too great.  Ask for something else".

The man then says he wants to be able to understand women.  To which the genie replies, "will this be just rail, or do you want a 2nd deck for cars?"

ba-doom

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

1

From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

port1080.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 11:18:26 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

I'm not convinced that this is necessary, but from a symbolic standpoint I think it's a great idea.  The more we see the world as being directly linked together, the better.  Still, there seem to be a lot of technical difficulties - for example, will it be economically feasible to keep the rail lines clear during the winter months?  Since shipping is already so cheap, will the increased speed outweigh the added cost enough to actually make this worthwhile?  I think the biggest potential comes out of the oil pipelines - and I see it as more of an environmental good than a bad.  Sure, pipeline spills happen, but they're easier to deal with than tanker spills, and pipelines are also (theoretically, at least) easier to monitor than tankers.  For example, one of the biggest problems with tankers isn't unintentional leaks, but rather intentional dumping that comes when tankers flush out their tanks.  This practice has been theoretically banned, but this has been very difficult to enforce, since a tanker can just go out to sea and do it when nobody's looking.

4

Won't happen

wetkarma.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 01:02:23 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

If the estimates say $65 billion, you can guarantee that it would really cost closer to 1T.

As a comparison -- the Big Dig was proposed at 2.8B and eventually cost close to 15B.

The chunnel was estimated to cost around 12b (usd) and wound up closer 20b and here this is key -- still operates at a loss.

Now we can jawbone all day about how interconnecting the world is a great idea, but at the end of all that talk, you still need valid economic reasons to do the project. This is a pipe dream that just got too much publicity on a slow news day.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Won't happen

thefadd.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 01:14:58 PM EST

none

It's a great idea in the big picture but I don't think it makes local sense for all the reasons described above. If it does happen, then, it won't happen for economic reasons but symbolic ones.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Re: Won't happen

pO157.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:18:25 PM EST

none

I think if the US and Canada got it together in terms of shipping cargo via rail instead of overnight jet or long haul truck transport it may make more sense.

As it stands now? Not so much.

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Re: Won't happen

thefadd.

Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 05:33:04 PM EST

none

If global warming continues and water shortages become real to the point where the desalination industry becomes an economic player, then I think you could see some demand in that part of the world for something like this. Get in on the landrush now!

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Re: Won't happen

nmiguy.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 03:33:07 PM EST

none

you still need valid economic reasons to do the project.

Well it could make it easier to get one of them there Russian Mail order brides...

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Re: Won't happen

thefadd.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 06:40:34 PM EST

none

And the lower-end Rail Order brides...

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

11

Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

rEvolution inAction.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 01:37:02 AM EST

none

It has to happen sometime, so why not now?

Tipping Sacred Cows

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

nmiguy.

Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 08:37:15 AM EST

none

Well I for one can think of better ways to spend 65 billion dollars now.  Gee 65 billion would go a LONG fucking way to help fix the broken Social Security system in the US or help with healthcare, prescription drugs or combatting disease, cancer and AIDS.  There's no compelling NEED to build the Alaska tunnel (or a bridge to nowhere) and theres very little economic benefit or return on investment.  And there are real and tangible problems that 65 billion dollars can fix.  If you're going to blow 65 billion, why not blow it on something that all Americans can and will use?  This is a waste and an insult to Americans.  This is NOT building the fucking Pyramids or the Great Wall, it's digginr a hole under the ocean taht will likely run to over a trillion dollars in costs.  Frankly, it's fucking stupid.  Tell you what, thake that same money and invest it in a terraforming mission to Mars or a moon base.  As wasteful as it sounds, those missions would at least have some future benefit.  

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

rEvolution inAction.

Fri Apr 27, 2007 at 01:30:42 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

No compelling need? Lightening the load on the Port of Los Angeles by sending freight through the rail system will make America safer from possible terrorist attacks.

Tipping Sacred Cows

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

rexdart.

Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 08:21:58 PM EST

none

"As wasteful as it sounds, those missions would at least have some future benefit."

True, but then consider what America spends each year on the military.  Now approaching 600 billion (that we know about).  Seems to me that such a tunnel, in such a place, would certainly cut down on port traffic, would ease energy costs in shipping, and would set up serious innovation in long distance rail passage.  I have to wonder if it might help political relations as well, given the close proximity of two of the relatively largest pains in the US's political ass.  In addition, the movement of aid (food, medical supplies, etc) would then become that much easier and quicker.

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Re: From Alaska to Kamchatka...by Rail

nmiguy.

Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 10:30:15 AM EST

none

Okay, so you see some benefits.  Do you see 65 billion in benefits?  And 65 billion is the slated costs, with over runs this will easily top several hundred billion.  The return on investment will be pennies on the dollar, as far as port relief and improved political relations.  

I'd like to see a cost analysis that makes this a worthwhile investment.  It would be easier to open new ports and improve security at those ports.  

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