Politics

Home by Halloween?

port1080.

Posted to Politics on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 02:54:56 AM EST (promoted by 1fastdog). RSS.

House Democrats voted Wednesday to set a timeline to begin pulling US troops out of Iraq by October 1st. The bill now goes to the Senate, where it is expected to pass, and then to the on to the desk of the Commander in Chief.

The spending bill would be the first time Congress has seriously challenged Bush's authority to conduct the War, and naturally Bush has threatened to veto it if it should pass the House and Senate (which looks likely). According to the AP story:

The $124.2 billion bill would fund, among other things, the war in Iraq but trigger the withdrawal of troops beginning this fall. It sets a nonbinding goal of completing the pullout by April 1, 2008.

Troops could remain in Iraq after the 2008 date but only for limited non-combat missions, including counterterrorism operations and training Iraqi forces.

The bill, already negotiated with Senate leaders, is expected to reach the president's desk by early next week following a final Senate vote Thursday.

The current incarnation of the bill is a compromise, as many House Democrats had wished for a binding timetable for withdrawal.

Is this bill a sign that the writing is on the wall for Bush's Iraq adventure, or is the backlash over Senate Majority Leader Reid's statement that the war is already lost a sign that the Democrats may be pushing for too much, too soon, in ways that will come back to haunt them in 2008?

Tags: written by port1080, edited by 1fastdog, war funding, politics, Iraq, troop withdrawal, timeline (all tags)

This story: 14 comments (1 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
1

Wondering how this will play out...

port1080.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 03:41:41 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

I think that this bill may be a bit premature - I think that it's pretty clear a majority of people think the war was a mistake, and wish we could get out, but I'm not sure that there's a consensus that we should just pull up and leave, when it might do more harm than good.  It's a bit of a Catch22, of course - if you never leave, you don't know what will happen when you do.  If you do leave, and it goes to shit, it would be almost impossible to get things back to even the modicum of control that they're under now.  I think that from the Democrat's standpoint, passing a nonbinding bill was probably the way to go.  This way, if things continue to go badly but Bush refuses to withdraw, they can pin all the blame on him - and work up a bill that would actually be binding.  If, on the other hand, things start to get a bit better and by February or March it looks like there's an end in sight, but we still need another year or two to reach it (instead of the decades that it looks like now), then the bill's flexibility would allow for the troops to stay without new authorizing legislation (which might be politically difficult to pass, even if it's clearly the right thing to do).  I don't think it will get to that, though, because it looks like Bush is certain to veto the bill... so only time will tell where we go from here.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

2

^ 1

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

wetkarma.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:36:24 AM EST

none

If I parse the logic correctly port1080, the upside of the bill is that Bush looks bad.

Er..and thats about it.

Nonbinding bills can be useful to get members "on the record" regarding an issue. But the fact that the best the congress can do is a political maneuver on what is probably the top foreign policy issue (if not top issue) facing this country, seems a bit absurd to me.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

3

^ 2

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

port1080.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:40:41 AM EST

none

If I parse the logic correctly port1080, the upside of the bill is that Bush looks bad.

Not exactly - it's that he looks bad if things continue to deteriorate in Iraq and he does nothing other than "stay the course". I agree that it looks like a cop-out bill, but on the other hand, what else makes sense at this point? There are very good reasons not to have an actual, completely solid time line. This bill does everything to register its disapproval with the war effort, without actually setting a date. Considering Congress has limited Constitutional powers over the Armed Forces, this is probably the best that's even possible.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

7

^ 3

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

gerrymander.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 11:17:41 AM EST

none

it's that he looks bad if things continue to deteriorate in Iraq and he does nothing other than "stay the course".

Anyone who asserts this is true is being extremely disingenuous. Bush has made changes: he (eventually) dumped Rumsfeld, he started listening to the generals, he provided more troops -- all the things Democrat war critics were asking for in 2006, save pulling out completely.

I agree that it looks like a cop-out bill, but on the other hand, what else makes sense at this point?

Not passing a cop-out bill? Giving time for the above-mentioned changes time to work? Heck, how about even meeting with the top general in the field to see what he has to say?

4

^ 1

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:43:03 AM EST

none

I think that from the Democrat's standpoint, passing a nonbinding bill was probably the way to go.  This way, if things continue to go badly but Bush refuses to withdraw, they can pin all the blame on him - and work up a bill that would actually be binding
It seems that's what passes for "leadership" under the Democratic Party. No leadership at all.

5

^ 4

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

port1080.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 10:58:46 AM EST

none

There are good reasons to start with a nonbinding resolution - for example, what if a binding bill passed (say they had the votes to over-ride a veto, although they don't), and Bush refused to withdraw the troops anyway?  All Congress controls is funding - Bush could refuse to withdraw the troops and dare Congress to cut their funding off.  Then you have at least a major political crisis, and at most an honest to god Constitutional crisis.  Would it really be responsible leadership to put the country right on track for a showdown like that?

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

6

^ 5

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

gerrymander.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 11:09:38 AM EST

none

Would it really be responsible leadership to put the country right on track for a showdown like that?

Technically, yes. It would certainly be more responsible than asserting repeatedly through every channel except the Constitutionally-provided one that the Congress has that authority. The non-binding resolution is a means of continuing that same showdown perpetually, which is ultimately more harmful.

11

^ 6

Long Term Plan

uncarved block.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 12:13:37 PM EST

none

   I have to wonder if the real negotiation here is less with the White House, which has shown little desire to listen to Democrats, and more with the Republican minorities in the House and Senate. Bush will be gone in less than two years, but most of the legislators will still be around, especially in the Senate. The leadership (presidents and policy makers) of both parties has benefited from the gentleman's agreement between the branches that Congress won't exert their constitutional powers so long as the president doesn't do anything too rash. It may not be right, but it's "the way Washington works", near as I can tell. Personally, I'd like the issue resolved one way or the other, but politicians haven't exactly followed what I thought best for years :)
    Would the Dems have enough Republican votes to avoid cloture if they went for a full on confrontation at this point? No, and Republicans could- rightly- respond that there hadn't been enough negotiation between the branches yet, seeing as the election was only 5 months ago. This bill might be that negotiation, an attempt to kick the can down the road one more time (a bureaucratic solution at its finest) if the administration accepts this rather weak compromise bill.
   This way, six months or a year from now, if Harry Reid decides to push the issue (Pelosi has less to worry about), he can go to Senate Republicans and argue- convincingly or not, depending on where you sit*- that he tried to avoid a showdown, but that Bush wouldn't budge. Would it peel off 8 Republican Senators?  Maybe not, but it would be a better institutional move than going for a showdown now-- and Reid strikes me as very much a creature of the institution of the Senate.

   *If you've already decided that Democrats are the enemy, for instance, this argument won't go far. The Senate, at least, works very hard at keeping a veneer of collegiality, so Reid might get at least a few listeners.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

8

^ 5

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 11:19:43 AM EST

none

All Congress controls is funding - Bush could refuse to withdraw the troops and dare Congress to cut their funding off
The bill they just passed, by the way, is binding. And would provoke a constitutional crisis in all likelihood.

9

^ 8

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

port1080.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 11:28:11 AM EST

none

Well, binding is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.  "The bill sets a nonbinding goal of completing the troop pullout by April 1, 2008" doesn't sound particularly binding to me - it seems like Bush could withdraw some troops starting in October, but still leave a lot of troops in Iraq and stay within the letter of the bill.  I agree that even as written it could provoke a constitutional crisis, but the chances are much lower than in the case of a bill that had a 100% firm tripline style end date (i.e. "if troops are still in Iraq as of January 1st, 2008, all funding will be immediately suspended, or something like that).

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

10

^ 9

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 11:36:10 AM EST

none

I'm referring to HR 1591 (just to make sure we're talking about the same bill), which says, in part,

(c) If in the transmissions to Congress required by subsection (a) the President determines that any of the conditions specified in such subsection have not been met, or if the President is unable to make the certification specified in subsection (b) by the required date, the Secretary of Defense shall commence the redeployment of the Armed Forces from Iraq and complete such redeployment within 180 days
Sounds binding to me. Maybe not constitutional, but if it is then it's binding.

14

^ 9

Re: Wondering how this will play out...

thefadd.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 07:25:32 PM EST

none

The war itself is extra constitutional in that it's not technically even a war. If the Congress doesn't declare War but goes on a nationa building exercise what control can Congress exert over that? Seems to me like a Constitutional question that's never been seriously contemplated during the life of our Constitutional. Would this Court find it Constitutional? I doubt it. Will it get to that point? I also doubt it.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

12

The Thing That Will Kill This Bill

thefadd.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 06:48:16 PM EST

none

...is all the extra crap the Dems have tacked on. They've miscalculated yet again and left the door wide open for Bush to bash it as "pork filled" because they've got "emergency" funding for all sorts of domestic crap in it. At the same time, Bush just doesn't feel to me like he's got enough mojo right now to win this battle. Sources are saying the war is only funded through June. Can Bush garner the support to veto to more rounds of this? Maybe the Dems smell blood in the water but I suspect Rove is up to something...

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

13

^ 12

Re: The Thing That Will Kill This Bill

jwb.

Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 07:07:25 PM EST

none

If Bush tries to complain about the "extra crap" he will only be highlighting his own colossal hypocrisy.  The 2005 "emergency" supplemental included to funds to build a baseball stadium in Washington, D.C. among other ignominious line items.  The 2006 supplemental had about $20bn in pork added on top.

I don't endorse the practice of buying votes with budget earmarks, but I also don't endorse the "It's OK when my party does it" line of thinking.

This story: 14 comments (1 from subqueue)
Post a Comment