Politics

Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

thefadd.

Posted to Politics on Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 03:11:42 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

So apparently these guys known as The Democrats held their first little debate thingy this past week. It was so well publicised that I personally didn't hear about it until the next day on NPR. The major candidates--Obama, Hillary, John Edwards and Bill Richardson competed--as well as a few minor ones.

The general response was underwhelming and the only conclusions widely drawn were that Hillary lost and the Dems have finally come out strongly and uniformly against President Bush's Iraq policies. In fact, leaders of the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades went so far as to call it a "moment of glory" for the Iraqi resistance.

Following the debate, candidates moved on to South Carolina, home of the second round of voting in the Democtratic Primary and a key state since polls show no discernable leader there. Edwards leads straw polls in Iowa while Hillary leads New Hampshire.

Quickly developing into the showdown state, though, is California who has moved its primary up to February 5th. California has long been the major contributor to Democratic campaigns and now that its votes count more heavily, it is being courted with abandon.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by thefadd, debates, Democrats, 2008 Presidential Race (all tags)

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9

Didn't Watch, Won't Watch

uncarved block.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 01:34:13 PM EST

4.50 (interesting, interesting)

   The only political debates I've watched over the last couple years were the first two Kerry/Bush conflic . . er, shared press appearances, and only because I was on vacation and away from a Civ game. A shocking lack of civic duty? Hardly, at least IMHO. It's been true for a long time that little of substance happens during these things (a trait shared with daily press briefings at the White House, and most other political actions in front of a camera), and anything that stands out will be replayed ad nauseum on the news shows later. Why spend even half an hour watching a farce when the important action will take place on the shows afterward? Whoever can massage the message later will come out of it better than their opponents.
   There's also the blog factor, where you can find out whether the cats are going to eat the food on sale, or not. Contrary to conservative CW, Hillary is not beloved by the left-- some of the comics I've seen in The Funny Times are rather scathing, and are not counterbalanced by any positive message in the text. This will  be more important in the Republican primaries, because even though the Dems have some candidates that fail a litmus test, folks like Giuliani and Romney fail several, or at least could if voters choose not to look the other way. Neither side is without their problems in this respect, but Republicans have it worse this time around.
    There's also the factor of TV ads. The campaign advisers, at least, still believe that close elections are won or lost in the last two weeks, and this by television ads. As much as press and media folks like to talk about the importance of face to face contact in New Hampshire and Vermont, the evidence seems fairly clear that the candidates who actually win do so by appealing to voters through their TVs and radios. Even a debate two months before the election will be pretty meaningless in this light, and even if I'm just watching the Weather Channel, I have more important things to do.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

27

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

nmiguy.

Thu May 03, 2007 at 08:56:34 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

I didn't watch because I figured the first debate would be pretty civil, lame and tell me very little about the candidates at this point.  Later on, when the herd is culled a bit, and the real competition begins, the debates will be more meaningful.  Then the candidates will have to defend their positions, their steps and missteps, tehy will attack each other and show why they feel they are presidential material.  This early democratic debate is just face time.  

1

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

pO157.

Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 07:53:14 AM EST

none

Why not just move all the primaries to one single day preferably closer to the big day in November so we don't have to listen to these inane TV ads all the time -- this state by state garbage is ridiculous.

Nihilists! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

2

^ 1

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rEvolution inAction.

Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 02:22:31 PM EST

none

Or how about they move the NH primary to the day after the election... California can get the same day, year 2... I dunno who wants year three, but it's up for bid.

Tipping Sacred Cows

3

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

thefadd.

Mon Apr 30, 2007 at 04:52:31 PM EST

none

It was interesting to me that Hillary came of so poorly and Obama so well. She certainly didn't show any of her hubby's charisma, whereas Obama did. She came off stilted and snobbish, almost Gore-like. This scares me a bit because it seems to be a trait the Dems like (see Kerry, John) that plays just horridly with the general public. I was an Edwards guy in '04 so I've stayed nominally Edwards just because I wasn't sure who to pick between Hillary and Barack. But Obama really showed he has answers and of all the Dems isn't going to take lame attacks lying down.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

5

^ 3

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rEvolution inAction.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 03:18:28 AM EST

none

Yeah, but what about the 100% certain victory on the Obama/Clinton or Clinton/Obama ticket? I mean just look at the demographics. No matter how many white men there are out there, they are outnumbered by the women and minorities.

Tipping Sacred Cows

7

^ 5

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rombuu.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 12:50:08 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Do you really think people are so shallow they'd vote for someone just because they were the same sex or race?  Hell, I don't fell compelled to vote for someone because they are white or male.

11

^ 7

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rEvolution inAction.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 03:19:35 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

To answer the question in your first sentence, yes. To answer the affirmation in your second sentence, it's because you are a white male.

Tipping Sacred Cows

8

^ 7

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

pO157.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 01:10:36 PM EST

none

Do you really think people are so shallow they'd vote for someone just because they were the same sex or race?  Hell, I don't fell compelled to vote for someone because they are white or male.

Unfortunately, there are tons of people like that out there. I am in a city now where during the last election cycle the office of mayor was open. One member of a minority group ran for it and there were people on the train every day, the radio, letters in the paper, etc talking about how great it would be if "one of us" finally got elected to the office. I heard that line at least twice as much as any reasonable discussion about any single issue. It is sad. Not surprisingly, he won as mayor. I am not saying he won 100% of his outward appearance, but when you can lock up a large bloc of people who will vote just for that one shallow reason...
Yeah.

Nihilists! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

10

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Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rombuu.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 01:43:20 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I keep saying letting everyone vote is a bad idea and no one listens to me....

12

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Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rEvolution inAction.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 03:20:12 PM EST

none

I agree, white people shouldn't be allowed to vote. They're sketchy.

Tipping Sacred Cows

14

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Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

thefadd.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 07:17:22 PM EST

none

I think it's process and that part of racial progress includes these biases up to a point. Until Kennedy was elected President, irish catholic was as much a subset of the population as a lot of other minorities, probably most akin to Mexicans today. There were still plenty of jobs irish catholics couldn't get. Once "one of us" became President, the next generation finally let go and moved on. People don't even think twice about it now. It will take having a black president or a woman president or an American President of Mexican descent before people in those subsets can begin to move past the issue as a group. That's a racist thing to say in many senses but if you step back and look at the history of racial integration in multiple societies, it's very true.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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^ 7

Race

tomc.

Thu May 03, 2007 at 08:56:57 AM EST

none

A while ago there was this kerfuffle in Canada about Indian immigrants taking over local chapters of federal parties to make sure that only people of Indian descent could be nominated as candidates for federal elections. For some reason, the fact that immigrants of British descent had been doing the same thing for generations didn't come up in the debate.

15

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Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

thefadd.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 07:19:29 PM EST

none

I don't think you can put a woman or a black man in as vice president first. It's the Chris Rock rule. I saw him the other day at the 3rd & fairfax farmers market. he was lookin good but man is he short.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

22

^ 15

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

rEvolution inAction.

Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:28:25 PM EST

3.00 (astute)

If you want to win, you can't play by someone else's rules, you have to make your own.

Tipping Sacred Cows

17

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Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

pO157.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 07:25:45 PM EST

none

Are we talking about Chris Rock or Dennis Kucinich?

Nihilists! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

18

^ 17

Re: Er, Presidential Debate Anyone?

thefadd.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 07:51:43 PM EST

none

Chris Rock I saw. He was standing in line at the gumbo pot wearing sunglasses, facial hair, and a tweed english driver style hat. It was pretty funny because he was obviously trying to slip in and slip out but his voice when he ordered was unmistakable and he was the only person I could hear order from where I was sitting..

But to stay on track, his joke went that you could never have a white president and a black VP until there was at least one black president first because what black person wouldn't just go kill the president so that we'd have our first black president.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

4

Burn Hillary, Burn.

permazorch.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 01:32:41 AM EST

none

A Dennis Kucinich and Barack Obama ticket makes this shallow liberal wet, with knees quivering. I don't care which one for Prez.

None of the rest turn me on. Turn offs? Hillary Clinton.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

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^ 4

Re: Burn Hillary, Burn.

thefadd.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 07:21:17 PM EST

none

Did you see the pic of Kucinich and his wife in gordon's link above? Holy crap, they need to permanently sodder her to his arm. People would take him seriously in a hurry.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

21

^ 16

People would take him seriously in a hurry.

permazorch.

Wed May 02, 2007 at 01:48:27 PM EST

3.50 (funny, funny)

Holy crap, they need to permanently solder her to his arm.
Word. The. Fuck. Up.

Gordon Urkel is so much better over here. For reasons like that link he's The Six Million Dollar Man.

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

6

Pointless castigation of the electorate

pO157.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 10:08:09 AM EST

none

I will reiterate my position: At this point I think a fair portion of the folks who are going "<CANDIDATE X> RAH RAH RAH!" need to rethink their support. I mean, do we even know what they stand for? I have gone to a few campaign websites and all I read are vague platitudes with no details. Name recognition, campaign war chests stuffed with cash and wishy-washy appearances on TV are great, but unless I can get to the nitty-gritty of what the person's platform is, I am not going to vote for them.

Regrettably, it appears the ratio of people who vote on issues to those wanting to make somebody the "first" of something or other superficial reasoning is rapidly decreasing.

Don't even get me started on the insanity of starting a presidential election contest this far out. Thank goodness I don't live in one of these "Early battleground" states for the primaries. I'd hate to be deluged with angry TV ads for the next two+ years as opposed to just the months after the convention, which is torture enough.

Nihilists! I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

13

^ 6

Re: Pointless castigation of the electorate

dzetetes.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 06:54:20 PM EST

none

Obama is a politician, a politician Obama - that is all
    Ye know on Nov. 4th, and all ye need know.

In regione caecorum, rex est luscus.

19

^ 6

Re: Pointless castigation of the electorate

jwb.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 08:08:02 PM EST

none

Kucinich is the only one with an explicit, detailed platform.  But his platform is a laugher, so it doesn't really help.  He's also the only candidate who has a theme song that isn't chosen by a marketing committee: God Bless America.  You gotta like the guy for being straightforward.

The next most explicit is Edwards, who has taken a lot of public stands on a lot of issues over the years.  The rest don't believe in anything other than getting themselves elected to the presidency.

20

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Re: Pointless castigation of the electorate

thefadd.

Tue May 01, 2007 at 11:05:07 PM EST

none

And this I think tends to be a basic difference between a lot of American liberals and conservatives. I've come toward the conservative side of late in a lot of ways and look a lot more for vague notions of "leadership qualities" as opposed to rock solid platforms. Obama exudes leadership and I think after 8 years of Bush weininess, the nation could really get behind that. Clinton usually shows great leadership traits but she came off pretty whiny last week.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Really?

uncarved block.

Wed May 02, 2007 at 02:36:22 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

   I've come toward the conservative side of late

   Geez, would have never guessed that, from the blog links in your Saudi terror bust sub :)

   I've also started to listen to conservative arguments a little more closely in the last five years, though I still think they're relativists posing as absolutists more often than not. This whole "leadership" thing, though, is one thing I can't do. Partially out of experience: there are folks I've worked with for five years now, and I still don't know how they'd react in a crisis or under pressure. Damn straight I'm going to hesitate to make the same judgment from people I see only in more or less managed public appearances. Even now, some of the New Right still praise W for his "leadership"-- the term seems more like shorthand for "I like this person." (You may be an exception, so no offense intended. Just speaking my mind.)
    If I were to pick one thing to judge a politician, it would be past performance, in style as well as policy. Hillary, for instance, would probably be a decent president. Confronted with a rather hostile conservative upstate New York, she didn't try to win by maximizing her base in New York City- though that would have been a winning strategy- but she took the effort to sell her campaign to folks who were probably never going to vote for her. If the success of a presidency (and the nation as a whole) benefits from the majority listening to minority party*, then this is a very positive sign. Has Obama even been around long enough in politics to have a track record? I dunno; sure seems like he's selling a biography more than anything else, though.
   For the same reason a McCain presidency wouldn't bother me too much, at least in potential, for much the same reason. He'll never get out of the primaries, though, so the point is moot.

    *And Republicans sure look as if they're doing everything possible to remain in the minority for at least four more years.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Really?

thefadd.

Wed May 02, 2007 at 06:20:47 PM EST

none

When I do look strictly at policy, I think Clinton is the more appealing choice for me. She's got vastly more experience than Obama, particularly in previously being a part of the executive branch and in her effectiveness in the Senate. She literally took the Senate by storm and gets things done that it usually takes Senators 20 years of establishing themselves to do.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

25

^ 24

Re: Really?

zyxwvutsr.

Wed May 02, 2007 at 07:20:26 PM EST

3.00 (funny)

She literally took the Senate by storm...
Literally?

Sorry, but that's one of my pet peeves, when someone uses the word "literally" figuratively. (Or was there an actual meteorological storm of some sort?)

26

^ 25

Re: Really?

thefadd.

Wed May 02, 2007 at 08:39:37 PM EST

none

yeah, it's one of my pet peeves, too, actually. don't know why I did it.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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