Politics

US Immigration Reform: The Bill That Wouldn't Die

thefadd.

Posted to Politics on Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 02:40:21 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

It looks like US immigration reform got canned but President Bush won't let it die. Was it Democratic Senate Leader Harry Reid's fault? It looks like he's getting the blame. Maybe it was so cobbled together with such an odd coalition that was doomed from the outset.

President Bush keeps on cobbling but his opponents aren't the Democrats -- they're his own party members. Said Reid:

The question is, do the Republicans support their president's immigration bill? At this stage, it's a resounding no. We'll move on immigration when they get their own act together.

Reid isn't entirely lacking in culpability, though. He openly lacks enthusiasm for the Act, in large part because of the great many compromises contained in the legislation. The various amendments and agreements tagged on have led to no shortage of confusion on the matter. Can you figure it out?

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by thefadd, immigration reform, Bush, Congress (all tags)

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9

Call me cynical

wetkarma.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 07:13:10 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Here's my conspiracy theory:
Harry Reid yanked the bill on purpose in order to make the republicans look (in the publics eyes) like they were stalling on the issue. As much as the republicans want to secure the Hispanic vote for decades to come, the Democrats want to portray republicans as white elitists.

By taking the bill off the table for the 2nd time, he still has the ability to bring it back for a vote 'after further bipartisanship'. If the build ultimately passes the dem's get kudos for leadership and political savvy, if it fails then its clearly the obstructionist republicans fault.

The only downside comes from those people who -hate- any immigration bill where amnesty involved. The politics of the situation says those voters (if they vote) wouldn't be voting democrat anyway.

For myself -- I think the bill should have at its center piece a certified identification database (national id) and hefty fines/jail time for employers who hire illegals. Until you reduce the demand for illegal aliens all you are doing is punting the problem a few year downs the road (and no building a 'fence' is not economically effective)

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

13

^ 9

Re: Call me cynical

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 09:59:25 PM EST

3.00 (funny)

building a 'fence' is not economically effective
What if it's really, really, really, really tall fence?

14

^ 13

Re: Call me cynical

thefadd.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 10:23:14 PM EST

none

We don't need no stinking fences. We just need really, really, really well placed volleyball schools.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

10

^ 9

Re: Call me cynical

thefadd.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:26:25 PM EST

none

It's strange that no one really credits the democrats with such political deftness. It would be a first in quite some time.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

11

^ 9

It's Possible

uncarved block.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:31:46 PM EST

none

   I mean, I've noted before that Reid- like most (all?) Senate leadership- is a product of the system, and knows how to work it to a T. But the problem comes when you say, "in order to make it look (in the publics eye) like they were stalling on the issue"-- mainly because, as Urkel demonstrates up thread, that they have good reason, perhaps the best reason for a politician (to wit, votes on election day), to actually stall long enough to let the bill die quietly. If Republican Senators were going back to their districts and hearing good support for amnesty, or even hearing support from their own counterparts in the House, then I'd say you had a case. But even though I haven't followed this move as closely as I could, both of those things seem to be false. Even before the losses in November, House leaders had to yank bills supporting the president's proposal because a win wasn't assured. And given the tone of commentary on the Net, I doubt those town hall meeting or focus groups are showing even lukewarm support for the administration position . . .
    Reid is only getting away with something devious, IMO, if there's any indication that the other side is getting truly stymied by the move. Except for Kyl and a few others, I'm not sure this at all the case. Of course, maybe I've just been following Mickey Kaus more closely than I should, but man, he's gone overboard on this issue, and provided a lot of info.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

15

^ 11

Re: It's Possible

nmiguy.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:09:28 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Reid- like most (all?) Senate leadership- is a product of the system, and knows how to work it to a T.

Oh, because he's working the system so well now.  I mean, Congress has been doing SUCH a good job since he's been "working it".

Reid and Pelosi dropped the ball on the war funding bill.  It appears to me the Immigration reform bill is equally fudged.  Good legislation can't seem to pass, and even compromised legislation goes nowhere.  The fucking hacks on Capitol Hill are not concerned in the least with teh state of America, they are too busy playing politics(badly).  Every once in a while a congress puts aside the politics to make something happen for the good of the country.  This congress hasn't got a clue how to put the nation on their radar.  It's all about the 2 parties, the GOP and the Democrats, and that polarizing figure in the White House.  

Reid is out of touch with reality.  Reality?  What is THAT?  Reality is the America is becoming over-run by Mexican immigrants.  Which is NOT a bad thing.  Since they are here, and their population will continue to grow even with immigration reform, then the proper and forward looking way is to make America more Mexican-friendly.  Legislation including amnesty makes in effect Mexican immigrants into Americans with a stake in the country and a political voice.  Reid is yanking the immigration bill because he's playing politics, guaging the sentiment of the voters rather than seeing how this engineers a voter change in the future.  He could make the Democrats the darlings of the MExian-American population, but instead he concedes these future votes to the GOP.  Harry Reid don't be myopic in your vision.

16

^ 9

Re: Call me cynical

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:39:37 PM EST

none

Fences are more cost effective than you think. Based on how much similar fences cost you could do it for about $2 million per mile. It doesn't have to be impregnegable. Employer sanctions reduce demand, fences and enforcement of existing laws reduce supply. Increasing the costs of hiring and being an illegal immigrant and reducing the benefits causes them to prefet to stay home instead of sneaking in here.

18

^ 16

Re: Call me cynical

pO157.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 02:30:43 PM EST

none

Ehh, fences help and are a good idea in higher traffic areas, but I think the best thing would be to enact severe penalties with strict enforcement for anybody caught hiring illegals, especially in bulk.

After a few management staffers get tossed in the clink and companies get labeled as hiring the "undocumented" on FoxNews when their illegal employees do ICE perp walks which leads to the associated public vitriol an open trial on those charges would generate would soon make "corporate" clean its own house up. In fairness, the problem is not 100% the responsibility of the illegals who come here, those that hire them are also to blame, and those who do so have not really been getting punished as they should have. Hell, as it stands now, why do they care if Javier or Lupe gets tossed in the can? If they are paying illegals in cash then they can just plead ignorance, hire a quick replacement and pocket all of Lupe's wages since the last pay period ended.

28

^ 16

Re: Call me cynical

MayorBob.

Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:53:40 AM EST

none

This is just a test.  Wet karma posted a diary entry which should explain what this is about.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

29

^ 16

Re: Call me cynical

MayorBob.

Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 05:56:49 AM EST

none

This is just a test.  Wet karma posted a diary entry which should explain what this is about.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

31

^ 29

Re: Call me cynical

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 03:22:48 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Queen of diamonds.

1

Re: US Immigration Reform: The Bill That Wouldn't

thefadd.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 02:46:18 PM EST

none

My take is, this bill is just all over the place and doesn't deserve to go anywhere. It's got gives to the left and right on the issue and doesn't present a coherent policy. I know this is shocking under a Bush presidency but, it seems like Bush is just behind it because he needs the political victory and sees one of few opportunities to forge one with a democratic congress. The problem, of course as uncarved block points out, is that he can't even get the support of his own party. And I think that goes to show that he's finally just lost it.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

2

^ 1

Re: US Immigration Reform: The Bill That Wouldn't

Steve Urkel.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 03:03:12 PM EST

3.66 (interesting, astute, astute)

Bush is behind this bill because he's a multiculturalist who loves Mexicans, and passionately believes in bringing more into this country. The fact that conservatives and the majority of Republicans oppose this lunatic bill is irrelvant to him.

3

^ 1

Re: US Immigration Reform: The Bill That Wouldn't

pO157.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 03:59:33 PM EST

3.00 (interesting)

What I think is most ridiculous about this whole process is I am finally starting to hear some of the vitriol and nasty rhetoric directed against Bush that is usually reserved for the "godless liberals" simply because he broke with the party base on this single issue.

That said, what in the world was he thinking? Pretty much his base is all he has left and everybody else is just riding out the time until 1/09. A legislative pyhrric victory at this point won't do him any good except a few notations in the history books that even in the last days his base wouldn't support him anymore.

If I were his adviser I would suggest to him (well, one of the many things) is that the rest of his term should be spent simply occupying himself with trying to keep the Republican party from fracturing any further and allow some limited hope of a smooth transition to a fellow GOP member in '09 who can win back the moderates and restore some sense to their party. Further black-eyes for the GOP are not what they need right now.

4

^ 3

Re: US Immigration Reform: The Bill That Wouldn't

Steve Urkel.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 04:16:58 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting)

"he broke with the party base on this single issue"

This is not an ordinary issue, like, for example, excessive spending, which conservatives also disagree with. Those opposing the Bush amnesty bill see it as a choice between the preservation of nation or irrevocably altering and transforming the nation into something else, something worse. Hence the rhetoric.

"the rest of his term should be spent simply occupying himself with trying to keep the Republican party from fracturing any further"

Bush cares about Mexican immigrants, he's only at times interested in the fortunes of the Republican party. Look for him to do something to get back at the conservatives and Republicans who "betrayed" him before the term is over. If there's a Supreme Court vacancy he will appoint a "moderate" hispanic woman.

6

^ 4

If that happened....

pO157.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:26:46 PM EST

none

Look for him to do something to get back at the conservatives and Republicans who "betrayed" him before the term is over.  

That really shoots to hell any theory that there really is somebody else pulling the strings behind the scenes, doesn't it? I mean, honestly, GWB putting a revenge plot in motion??? Filling out all those nomination papers and making those policy decisions are something too complicated to be within the realm of a C- intellect as some have claimed in the past.

7

^ 6

Re: If that happened....

Steve Urkel.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 06:39:41 PM EST

none

Who is it who would be pulling Bush's strings? The Illuminati?

 

8

^ 7

Re: If that happened....

pO157.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 07:09:35 PM EST

none

Ehh, you know. The usual commentary about how the real power behind the throne is in the hands of "The Chainsaw" Cheney, or some other random buisness executive, or whatever it is people say.

12

^ 4

And Yet

uncarved block.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 08:35:29 PM EST

none

    There are still those who would say this president isn't in the discussion for "worst president ever."

    Amazing but true.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

17

^ 12

Re: And Yet

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 01:43:01 PM EST

none

Worst is fuzzy, but as far as destructiveness goes he would be third behind FDR and LBJ (excluding pre-20th century Presidents, for simplicity). Special mention should go to Ted Kennedy, who was instrumental in the first big immigration "reform", making him the most destructinve Senator ever.

25

^ 17

Funny You Should Mention

uncarved block.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 08:26:28 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

FDR and LBJ, because they're at the crux of why I wonder why more conservatives aren't pissed off at W than there are*. After the debacle that was Nixon, conservatism in general and Republicans in particular were at their lowest ebb in quite some time. Thanks to the diligent efforts of some true believers, and heaps upon heaps of corporate sponsorship (for think tanks in particular), the political landscape reversed in 1994, and gained steam most of the next decade. There was even some (idiotic) talk in 2004 about a permanent Republican majority-- "permanent" was dumb, but "for the foreseeable future" was easy to see.
    For the first time since the 40s, Republicans and conservatives had both the elected majorities and the apparent direction in the electorate to take a chance and finally dismantle the programs that had driven them bonkers for decades: Social Security, and the remaining elements of the Great Society programs that were still around after Gingrich. It's one thing to lose majority status for enacting something you think is right (like the Voting Rights Act), and quite another to lose your majority for . . well, nothing in particular. Or maybe even worse than nothing.
    Which is where conservatives are now. Social Security reform went nowhere, thanks either to lack of interest or downright neglect. Homeland Security, a government agency "made by lobbyists, for lobbyists" not only came to be, but swallowed up agencies like the Coast Guard that worked fairly well alone. The interjection of John Birch Society political rhetoric into conservative bestsellers- a key to Bush's re-election in 2004- alienated the minority party, while the president did little or nothing to stir his own parties legislators into action. Republicans are facing the distinct possibility of a clean sweep in 2008, something that was NOT inevitable in 2002 or 2004. Three decades of hard work, and what's to show for it? Some tax cuts that could probably have gotten passed no matter what, and a foreign occupation that was badly managed, if not necessarily abroad then assuredly at home~. And the man who masterminded 9/11 is at serious risk of dying in bed of old age, a little bit of garnish on a rather large shit sandwich.
    Is squandered potential worse than actual actions? (To anticipate one rebuttal.) Well, consider Neville Chamberlin, who has been mocked for decades for failing to confront the pressing issue of his day. The next five years may vindicate this administration yet, say by a president McCain actually pushing through a decent SS reform-- but that's not a bet I'd lay a dime on at this point. Republicans and conservatives are copying the Democrats highly effective strategy of demonizing the House majority leader, and Bush has decided to throw more political capital behind an issue that angers the party base than anything since the tax cuts of 2001. At this point, an impeachment would actually be a good thing, because it might distract conservatives from remembering just what's been lost after January, 2009 . . .
    That's why I took my turn at a little trolling.  The whole thing has provided me no end of amusement over the last couple years, and the next two promise to be even more entertainment.

    *I'm not even going to mention liberal objections, in part because they're less interesting, and mainly because I know you don't care.
    ~If for no other reason that expanding Executive power was also a plank in the conservative agenda for a long time. Other examples available on demand.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

27

^ 25

Re: Funny You Should Mention

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:30:20 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

"Thanks to the diligent efforts of some true believers, and heaps upon heaps of corporate sponsorship (for think tanks in particular), the political landscape reversed"

Don't discount the extent Americans have rejected liberal policies. It's why after regaining the House and Senate Democrats aren't doing anything - just because people are mad at Republicans, doesn't mean they wan't liberal programs like government funded sex change operations.

"It's one thing to lose majority status for enacting something you think is right (like the Voting Rights Act), "

Can we put that to rest? Let's not pretend that nothing happened between 1964 and 1994 that cost Democrats to lose support.

"Social Security reform went nowhere, thanks either to lack of interest or downright neglect."

Political philosophy aside, as a practical matter I think that unfortunate, but it looks like nothing will be done until things get bad.

"The interjection of John Birch Society political rhetoric into conservative bestsellers- a key to Bush's re-election in 2004"

What?

"Three decades of hard work, and what's to show for it? "

A handful of dust. This is not something conservatives need to be "distracted" from, it's openly discussed (in print see Chronicles or The American Conservative). Republicans still haven't seemed to notice. But most Republicans never really agreed with conservatives anyway.

"And the man who masterminded 9/11 is at serious risk of dying in bed of old age"

I'm willing to bet Bin Laden's dead. But you never know.

30

^ 25

Re: Funny You Should Mention

rombuu.

Fri Jun 15, 2007 at 02:37:46 PM EST

3.00 (funny)

Three decades of hard work, and what's to show for it?

Well, the SCOTUS is in nice shape....

19

^ 17

Re: And Yet

thefadd.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 02:52:17 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

I think it's difficult to include any President from pre-20th century because the stakes were so low. I might try to include Andrew Jackson because of the destruction his policies wrought so mercilessly on both the native peoples and the buffalo but he also did quite a bit to protect and expand the country so his tenure likely evens out from the perspective of "good for America." Other than that, there simply wasn't all that much to screw up after Washington, Jefferson and Madison nailed it.

In the 20th century, it's hard not to discount the reckless Republican policies of Harding and Coolidge because we now see that nearly every new market-economy goes through an early period of irrational exuberance and breakdown. FDR is our only four-term President and so well regarded by history that you can't really even troll on him. That leaves the dangerous escapades of Kennedy versus the failure to exhibit leadership where needed in LBJ and Carter (LBJ did a lot of good but at the expense of ignoring things less important to him but not less important to the country), versus the massive deficits of Reagan and Jr. Bush. Pick your poison.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

21

^ 19

Es gibt nur ein Berlin

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 04:56:39 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

...the massive deficits of Reagan...
I think it's safe to say that whatever damage was caused by Reagan's budget deficits was rather limited in scope. But it seems almost incomprehensible that you would cite deficit spending while wholly ignoring Reagan's more lasting accomplishments.

20

^ 19

Re: And Yet

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 03:57:34 PM EST

none

I agree, Jackson was an a-hole.

There was nothing wrong with the policies of Harding and Coolidge. The Great Depression was caused by the Federal Reserve (which was established in 1913 when Wilson was President - I forgot about him, but he should be in the mix).

FDR permanently detached the government from its constitutional moorings, and his running for 4 terms is one of the things to hold against him.

"The massive deficits of Reagan "

Those worked out just fine.

24

^ 20

Re: FDR

Jackkeefe.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 06:35:49 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

FDR permanently detached the government from its constitutional moorings, and his running for 4 terms is one of the things to hold against him.

Its hard to understate how dangerous and destructive his court packing policy was.  Had he succeeded, he would have destroyed the judiciary as an independent branch of government.  The democratic senators who turned against him and torpedoed the plan were the greatest legislative heroes of the twentieth century.

I wonder how those who are so enthralled by FDR would feel if Bush had been able to follow FDR's plan appoint three or four additional Scalia type judges between 2002 and 2006 in order to ensure that the Bush administration's objectives were achieved.  

I'd also love to know which specific policies of either Coolidge or Harding caused the great depression.   If anything, Harding's handling of the post war recession provided a model for Harding and Roosevelt to follow.  Instead, Hoover and Roosevelt's refusal to let market correct itself turned what should have been a brief, sharp recession into a decade long economic nightmare.  

26

^ 24

Re: FDR

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 09:07:47 PM EST

none

Well said. The the threat of court packing managed to intimidate the courts. Since FDR we've been under a different constiutional order.  

22

^ 20

Re: And Yet

thefadd.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 05:12:27 PM EST

none

Those worked out just fine.

Thanks to the...Federal Reserve established by Woodrow Wilson (an unabashed idealist whose concepts all struggled in the short term but succeeded in the face of history) which is all but single-handedly responsible for guiding the US economy out of the bathtub in which Reagan tried to drown it and maintaining unprecedented levels of economic prosperity over the two decades since October 19, 1987.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

23

^ 22

Re: And Yet

Steve Urkel.

Thu Jun 14, 2007 at 06:13:05 PM EST

none

Reagan supported the efforts of the Federal Reserve to turn around the inflation of the 70's. As Alan Greenspan observed:

"My predecessor at the Federal Reserve, Paul Volcker, embarked in the fall of 1979 on an aggressive monetary tightening that attempted to arrest a dangerously accumulating set of inflationary forces. Presidential candidate Reagan also perceived inflation as a danger, and, then as President, afforded Volcker the political support that is so essential to a central bank when its pursuit of long-term stability risks some worsening in near-term economic activity. That support began the process that has led today to the virtual elimination of inflation from the U.S. economy. "

And the fact that the Federal Reserve pursues sensible monetary policy now does not excuse its pursuing disastorous monetary policies in the past. As for "drowning the economy in a bathtub", as Greenspan also notes:

"A second key support to today's flexible markets has been the bipartisan deregulation initiatives that began in the Ford and Carter years and were extended by Ronald Reagan. In January 1981, disregarding warnings that the action might renew upward pressures on inflation, President Reagan dismantled the remaining controls that had debilitated our oil markets. By 1986, crude oil prices had reached their lowest levels in real terms since 1973. Deregulation in finance, trade, and transportation was pressed forward.

But perhaps the most important, and then highly controversial, domestic initiative was the firing of the air traffic controllers in August 1981. The President invoked the law that striking government employees forfeit their jobs, an action that unsettled those who cynically believed no President would ever uphold that law. President Reagan prevailed, as you know, but far more importantly his action gave weight to the legal right of private employers, previously not fully exercised, to use their own discretion to both hire and discharge workers. There was great consternation among those who feared that an increased ability to lay off workers would raise the level of unemployment and amplify the sense of job insecurity.

It turned out that with greater freedom to fire, the risks of hiring declined. This increased flexibility contributed to the ability of the economy to operate with both low unemployment and low inflation. Whether the average level of job insecurity has risen is difficult to judge, but, if so, some offset to that concern should come from a diminished long-term average unemployment rate."

5

Perhaps this is what it all comes down to anyhow.

MayorBob.

Wed Jun 13, 2007 at 05:00:12 PM EST

none

But Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid quoted copiously from the Dr. Suess book The Cat In The Hat to try to describe what sort of mess the Senate was turning the immigration debate into.  Thus, a critical piece of national legislation is turned into a piece of childish gibberish (yeah, I'm no big fan of Dr. Suess).  I loved Reid's acknowledgement of public disapproval at how Congress is screwing the pooch on immigration and calling for some sort of meaningful energy legislation -- "we'll deal with that just as soon as we're done with this" -- meaning, I guess that we may as well just say goodbye to that lovely icecap in Greenland.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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