Politics

UK Under (Incompetent) Siege

wetkarma.

Posted to Politics on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:34:18 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Approximately two years after muslim terrorists set explosives off in the London underground, the United Kingdom now faces new attacks. On Friday the morning of June 29th, Londoners woke to the news of police officers disabling an explosive device in a car reported to be packed with fuel, gas cylinders and nails. This was followed by the detection of another vehicle also packed with similar material which had been towed from nearby Trafalgar Square.

Both devices although allegedly connected to cell phone detonating triggers did not/failed to detonate.

On Saturday, June 30th two men drove an SUV into the glass wall terminal of Glasgow airport - initial reports state the vehicle was on fire before impact. The two men are reported to have been taken into custody. Glasgow airport was subsequently evacuated with all flights suspended.

Eyewitness on Sky TV: Car was full of gas cans. Driver and passenger were throwing gasoline all around the scene after they crashed the SUV into the terminal door. After ramming an airport gate, the guy charged the terminal with flames beginning to burst from the vehicle, angling it in order to best ram through the glass terminal door and kill passengers inside. One man from the vehicle burst into flames. Amidst the fire and chaos, the terrorists were wrestled to the ground by taxi drivers and passengers.
With the start of the summer season, these seemingly amateur terrorist incidents have so far provided more traffic inconvenience than harm to citizens. With a newly instituted government in the UK, it remains to be seen whether the UK will be able to effectively respond to these news attacks.  

Tags: edited by Port1080, edited by 1fastdog, written by wetkarma, United Kingdrom, Terrorism, Car Bombs (all tags)

This story: 18 comments (2 from subqueue)
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5

Is it really that hard?

port1080.

Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 07:05:32 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

The relative lack of terrorist attacks (both in Europe and the US) since 9/11 has surprised me quite a bit.  Many of the terrorist attacks that have succeeded have not been all that complex or well coordinated.  The original WTC attack (with the vans) was very poorly planned and executed, and it still came close to fully succeeding.  The DC sniper attack was about as low-tech as it gets, and it still brought the DC metro area to a screeching halt.  I'd like to think that greater vigilance and better security is the answer, but I doubt it...  So what is the answer?  Are there really not as many terrorists as we've been led to believe?  Or is it harder to carry out these sorts of attacks than it appears on the surface?  

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Re: Is it really that hard?

thefadd.

Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 09:27:55 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I think the real conclusion is that 9/11 wasn't really that significant in the history of terrorism and didn't change anything. Oklahoma City, Achille Lauro, Berlin Olympics, USS Cole, Haymarket Square, etc, etc...they happen every once in awhile. Sure, the ways they're carried out change. Advances in technology also help increase the scale at which they can occur while increasing our ability to combat them.

Like Katrina was a failure in Emergency Management of a massively incompetent scale, so was 9/11 a massive failure of intelligence. As Condi Rice astutely noted, the title of the report was "Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside The United States." Bush came in and slashed anti-terror programs in favor of the pie in the sky Star Wars program. It was to a degree, a perfect storm of really rich bitter dude with his life's work ready to come off and a shockingly low level of preparedness within the US.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

8

^ 6

Re: Is it really that hard?

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 01:15:11 PM EST

3.00 (interesting)

As Condi Rice astutely noted, the title of the report was "Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside The United States." Bush came in and slashed anti-terror programs...
For the record, the report entitled Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside The United States contained no information about plans for attacks within the United States. (That may seem odd, but it's true.) Also, Bush did not slash anti-terror programs. That is a blatant falsehood.

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Re: Is it really that hard?

thefadd.

Mon Jul 02, 2007 at 10:35:48 PM EST

none

That's a very keen splice of language.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Re: Is it really that hard?

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 07:58:31 AM EST

none

That's a very keen splice of language
What is?

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^ 6

significance of 9/11

skeptic.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 08:51:00 AM EST

none

I disagree with your opinion that "9/11 wasn't really that significant".  I see all sorts of significant consequences, even beyond the massive loss of life and destruction of property, which was greater than that caused by any previous attack on the US since the bombing of Pearl Harbor (which was roughly comparable, but even so was less shocking since it was at least an attack on a military target rather than a civilian target).  As an act of terrorism, 9/11 did succeed in creating quite a bit of alarm if not outright terror, and the alteration in public attitude was a large factor in both the re-election of George W. Bush, and in the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that Iraq was a likely source of further terrorist attacks (which may or may not have been true, but which many people did believe).  And certainly, NATO would not have gone to war in Afghanistan if not for 9/11.  And all of these primary consequences have many further consequences, which expand constantly and affect the unfolding of human history in innumerable ways.

Beyond that, was 9/11 part of any coherent overall strategy to bring down Western civilization, or was it just an anomaly?  I would say the former.  You give a list of terrorist attacks, indicating that these are just things that happen now and then because there are always a certain number of lunatics around who like to destroy things and kill people (if I may paraphrase your argument) but I note that most of the incidents that you mention, along with 9/11, were specifically Muslim terrorist attacks.  And there are lots more Muslim terrorist attacks that aren't on your list, and new ones that have taken place even in the short time since you posted you comment.  Muslim terrorists are very busy.  This is a pattern.  The non-Muslim world is under siege.  It may be a rather sloppy and poorly organized siege, but it is a siege nonetheless.  

There is no reason to think that Muslim terrorism is going to go away or slow down, at least, not unless some means is found by which the vast rage of the Muslim world can in some way be defused, or alternatively, unless some massive counter-strike can terrify the terrorists to the point that they will be too frightened to continue their attacks, which (as I mentioned in a previous comment) is certainly possible, although at a very high cost, since it would involve the nuclear annihilation of entire nations.  We may eventually be driven to that extreme.  We may all have to become terrorists.  If terrorism is the ultimate weapon (as I have been assured in other discussions) then no global power can survive without being able to inflict terror.  So this conflict could get much worse.  And the turning point was indeed 9/11.

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Re: significance of 9/11

thefadd.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 01:22:46 PM EST

none

To qualify it as a siege is to qualify nearly all of civilization as being under siege. Sacho & Vanzetti were not muslim, the haymarket bombers were not muslim, OKC (ostensibly) wasn't muslim backed, the unabomber isn't muslim, yet these were all major acts in their time. Some might go so far as to call them the 9/11's of their time. Disaffected individuals will always turn to violence and use the measures available to them to carry out that violence.

Terrorism is and has been a means to an end for oppressed peoples throughout history, even if that isn't the self-proclaimed end of a given movement's leaders. The black panthers, the IRA, and soon to be the PLO and Hamas as well -- they weren't crushed by force, nor did they crush their opponents with force. The faded away when their foot soldiers members became middle class.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Re: significance of 9/11

skeptic.

Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 08:56:38 AM EST

none

I see a difference between isolated incidents and a sustained attack.  Sacco & Vanzetti (even assuming that they actually committed an act of terrorism and weren't just framed) were not part of an ongoing series of anarchist attacks (although that admittedly was feared at the time).  All of the non-Muslim incidents that you mention are isolated incidents, whereas the Muslim attacks are part of an assault on civilization that is still in progress.

Of course, if the currently disaffected and violent Muslim populations and organizations were to become middle class and therefore discover that they have something to lose by tearing down civilization as it exists, that would be an ideal solution to the existing situation.  I think you may be overly optimistic in expecting that to happen, however, we'll see.

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Re: significance of 9/11

thefadd.

Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 02:24:16 PM EST

none

were not part of an ongoing series of anarchist attacks (although that admittedly was feared at the time). All of the non-Muslim incidents that you mention are isolated incidents, whereas the Muslim attacks are part of an assault on civilization that is still in progress.

You're assuming your own conclusion. Remember, Al-Qaida lacks central command. It is a de-centralized collective. This is both its strength and its weakness, of course. If you look at Ruby Ridge, Waco and OKC as right wing revulsions against a left wing federal government, they're no less coordinated than the cole, 9-11, and this past attack for example.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

18

^ 17

Re: significance of 9/11

skeptic.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:59:14 AM EST

none

I am not assuming that these series of attacks are coordinated or planned, I merely observe that there are enough angry Muslims in the world that the attacks will continue.  And they will, until there is some fundamental change in existing circumstances.

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^ 14

Re: significance of 9/11

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 11:49:41 AM EST

none

Disaffected individuals...
Individuals. Just like al Qaeda.

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Resource Allocation

uncarved block.

Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 12:17:32 PM EST

3.00 (interesting)

    I'm just paraphrasing a C-SPAN speaker here, so take this with a grain of salt. There were some interesting points, though, worth mentioning even if very general.

    Al-Quaida, the main terrorist group actually interested in attacking America, operates under the assumption of the "near war" (against "wrong" Muslim regimes in the ME) and the "far war" (against the Western democracies.) OK, you've probably heard of this- I had- but hadn't really thought hard about what that meant when it comes to terrorism in the US. Once al-Quaida lost its safe base in Afghanistan, where should the organization's leaders direct their attention and resources? To the "far war", which they (apparently) never thought was winnable, or to the "near war"-- namely disrupting a nation (preferably Muslim) so badly that the organization could operate in relative safety? The answer seems clear, and the next step is deciding where to go. Sudan? Certainly unstable, but there's been too much international attention to the Darfur conflict. Yemen? You can't go home again. Afghanistan? The Taliban are making a comeback, but having al-Quaida make a public appearance again would change that. Iraq? Bingo. Even if the US military is there, killing its share of recruits, it's still the best option available. (The possibility that the locals would turn around and butcher al-Quaida along with their other political rivals should the US leave is just one of those chances aspiring despots have to take.) While it's risky to try and get into the head of men like these too much, it certainly seems consistent with past statements and behaviors.
    Of course, there's also the fact that Osama bin Laden was always one for the grand gesture, and even if he's still not in charge (or even alive), his thinking likely permeates the organization. One of the only things that could top 9/11 would be a nuclear attack, and it's a tribute to the international community that fissile material hasn't gotten into their hands-- yet. I still half expect to wake up one day and hear that New York, or DC, or both, just went up in mushroom clouds. (Heck, my first reaction on 9/11 was along the lines of, "huh, the terrorists couldn't get nukes", so this is not a new pessimism.) Do you really think cargo container security is good enough to catch a plot like this?
   Ugh. Time to go think some happy thoughts, even if it is going to be 109 today.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Resource Allocation

thefadd.

Tue Jul 03, 2007 at 03:49:08 PM EST

none

Al Qaida, like America and Democracy, is far stronger as an idea than as an entity. America and Americanism have permeated world culture in ways not previously seen to the benefit of both Americans and humanity. Along comes Al Qaida, nipping at our heels and poking out our negatives. Bush II isn't half the visionary his daddy wasn't so it's hardly a surprise that while we've enriched his cronies in fighting the physical war, we've yet to fully engage Al Qaida's ideas war. If there's a necessary next step in this battle, that is it.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

7

^ 5

Re: Is it really that hard?

pO157.

Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 08:22:36 AM EST

none

Are there really not as many terrorists as we've been led to believe?  Or is it harder to carry out these sorts of attacks than it appears on the surface?  

I dunno, but I find it interesting that almost every plot they talk having foiled on CNN appears to involve people tangentially related (at best) to professional groups and usually ends up never having progressed past the stage of "Duuuuude, wouldn't it be totally cool if we like went in there and fucked up some shit? Man, that would be far out" or was just completely stupid. I mean, the JFK plot apparently wouldn't have worked as the FBI or whoever said they planned it, and the plot on Fort Dix just sounded retarded. I mean, who goes and leads a frontal infantry assault on a military base with a bunch of retards whose only combat experience is probably playing Doom or Counterstrike? Come on!

So what does this mean? Does this mean the plots that are actually run by nutcases with the skill set to run these things profressionally are likely to succeed despite any effort by domestic law enforcement (God, I hope not) but due to the invasion of Afghanistan those networks have been smashed? I wish that the second part is true, but due to recent reports about the campaign over there I doubt it.

4

Re: UK Under (Incompetent) Siege

thefadd.

Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 05:43:24 PM EST

4.00 (funny, funny)

With a newly instituted government in the UK, it remains to be seen whether the UK will be able to effectively respond to these news attacks.

Effectively respond to what? A burning car? I have complete confidence in the fire fighting ability of the current British government. The US government? Not so sure. It could take FEMA three or four days to respond to something like that.


Not even South Park can make fun of terrorists this well.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

1

Re: UK Under (Incompetent) Siege

tinsguy.

Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:57:38 PM EST

none

actually it was 2 years ago that terrorists set off explosives in the london underground.

3

^ 1

Re: UK Under (Incompetent) Siege

port1080.

Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 05:10:04 PM EST

none

Fixed

2

Re: UK Under (Incompetent) Siege

tinsguy.

Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:58:24 PM EST

none

actually it was 2 years ago that terrorists set off explosives in the london underground.

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