The Visigoth thing - I disagree, here's why:

The visigoths had been much abused and jerked around (enslaved, impoverished, exploited, starved) by previous Roman administrations prior to the half assed attempts to integrate and use them as troops in service of the empire.  As such they were culturally foreign to Rome and had every reason to not to trust Roman promises when agreeing to work for them.   When they had the chance they stuck it to a their former masters good and hard.

The praetorians were exalted members from within Romes military between 4,500 - 10,000 strong at times - hand picked and placed into the highest paying 'Soldier' type jobs around especially when compared to the regular army.  With such excellent employment terms and generous retirement benefits - a career as a Praetorian was an excellent move for a commoner with lucky enough to get in.  IMO this maps closely to the situation we see with the rise of Blackwater - awesome pay relative to regular US military using skills acquired in the US armed services (skills not always useful in the civilian world - but lots of CASH sure is) - and if the description of the leadership/owners of Blackwater is to be believed it is a strongly GOP supporting organization.  Connected to the GOP operatives who have been in and out of government since (or before) the Reagan era - Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, Baker, etcetera. - these powerful men and their supporters are nominally Americans but represent an agenda and ideological extremes that can fairly be described as self serving.  Their public service has always been accompanied by the vast enrichment of their 'friends' in private industry which   reciprocates the fellowship by providing leadership/management job assignments to the members of this GOP elite sub-set in those times when 'their' team is not officially in charge of the US government.  This multi-decade cycle of revolving between private industry and government has concentrated vast amounts of financial and arguably legislative/administrative power into the hands of this group.  The rise of Blackwater and massive use of private contractors for performing/accomplishing US foreign policy via force is a logical development of 'the groups' direction.  

Blackwater is not a company that could have prospered under any other administration because it is reasonable to assume that any other administration would not have pursued a foreign policy of conquest and occupation without first having structured to US military to fullfill that role according to the best recommendations of military analysts at the DoD whose careers have been spent thinking about nothing else (they have experts who study nearly every aspect of potential conflict - before that kind of conflict is turned into a real operation - ask Colin Powell or Gen. Shineseki).

As Praetorians primary job was to maintain the power of the Emperor which they were motivated to do out of self interest created from personal prosperity, Blackwater will be interested in supporting whomever will keep them well supplied with lucrative contracts.  They and their friends in the ruling class will make all manner of patriotic claims and mouth platitudes of faux populism while their true purpose will be as always - to enrich themselves and their supporters.  Blackwater just represents a new era of armed capability to defend those interests.

"...when theft and high crime becomes obscenely obvious to even the blindest beer sucking idiot, it is always the Republicans who are in office." -- Joe Bageant

According to reports from the usual left-wing suspects:

Blackwater was co-founded by former Navy Seal Erik Prince, a "billionaire right-wing fundamentalist Christian from a powerful Michigan Republican family. A major Republican campaign contributor, he interned in the White House of President George H.W. Bush and campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 1992. He founded the mercenary firm Blackwater USA in 1997 with Gary Jackson, another former Navy SEAL"...Prince's father, Edgar Prince, and Gary Bauer started the Family Research Council, where Prince interned. Prince's sister, Betsy DeVos, is a former chair of the Michigan Republican Party.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

Betsy DeVos is the wife of Dick DeVos, extremely conservative candidate for Michigan governor in 2006, and one of the heirs to the Amway fortune.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

So that's where $0.40 of every war dollar is going!

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

You're probably right. I was just getting the feeling that the write-up was suggesting that Blackwater would end up turning on the US if the US decided to curtail its activities or contracts (which is much like the situation wiht Alaric).

Tipping Sacred Cows

In the way that Blackwater is not covered by the constitution or any treaties that the US is party to...

What an absurd thing to say. Blackwater is a US company and is subject to all US laws.

Can you say that and mean it though?

Tipping Sacred Cows

Can you name a law they have broken with impunity?

Thou shalt not kill.

Tipping Sacred Cows

Bush is just as guilty of that too, I'm afraid.  Good thing he did such a good job on the commandment,  "Get even for thy father".

...or was that honor thy father and mother.  Oh well, I'm sure he gets them mixed up too.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

It was 'Honor thy neighbor's ox'.

Tipping Sacred Cows

They're only subject to US law when they're operating on US soil. Things are very different in Iraq, where they're not subject to US law, nor, as civilians, are they subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, nor, as workers contracted by the US Military, have they been subject to Iraqi law. Much like it has done with the "Enemy Combatant" label, the administration has made for itself a way to operate without any accountability.

They're only subject to US law when they're operating on US soil

No, they're subject to US law anywhere in the world.

Things are very different in Iraq...

Yeah, well no kidding. Iraq is borderline anarchy.

Yeah, well no kidding. Iraq is borderline anarchy

Courtesy of the US, thank you very much.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

Courtesy of the US, thank you very much

Nonetheless, Blackwater, as an American firm, staffed by Americans, is subject to US law. Anyone claiming otherwise is either, 1) lying, 2) high on drugs, and not thinking clearly, or 3) ignorant.

The problem with companies like Blackwater is not that they are beyond the reach of US law, but that there are not many US laws that constrain their actions. That is to say, what they are doing is legal.

No one is subject to US law outside the US. If I smoke a joint in Amsterdam, I'm not subject to American drug laws, and when GM opens a factory in China, they're not subject to American labor laws. Blackwater is no different.

No one is subject to US law outside the US

Wrong.

At the very least, the US government, as provided for in the Constitution, has the power to pass a few broad categories of laws that are international in scope. Among these are powers,

• To regulate commerce with foreign nations
• To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations
• To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water

US citizens and certain categories of aliens are subject to certain provisions of US tax law, no matter where they live. Corporations chartered in the US are subject to many laws that govern their foreign and international operations - such laws cover, for example, taxes and prohibitions against paying bribes. Banks that do business in the US are subject to certain US laws, even for certain transactions that do not originate in, or pass through, US territory in any way. Foreigners, i.e., people who are not US citizens or immigrants, are subject to US terrorism laws, no matter where in the world their offenses occurred.

At the very least, the US government, as provided for in the Constitution...blah blah blah

How very nice...you took a bit of what Strangeluck said, and turned into a nicely distracting diatribe on how the Constitution works.

Let's put this on simpler term for the moment...Do American companies with factories in China or Mexico pay federal minimum wage?

Of course, the issue we all seem to be ignoring is the difference between a law and the enforcement of a law.  For instance, certainly workers in US commonwealth areas like Saipan or Guam are legally protected by US labor laws...but as far as I know, the workers there are still not paid the legal minimum wage (I'm lookin' at you Tom Delay).

Bringing this back to Blackwater...Is it subject to US law abroad?  Maybe...I'll even give that point to you.  Will it ever be subject to enforcement of said law?  Given the record of offshore law enforcement - Not so much.  Maybe if we ever hear about them breaking such laws in the first place...and the company breaking the laws isn't protected by layers of congressional obfuscation (I'm still looking at you, Tom), and then maybe when hell freezes over.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

Do American companies with factories in China or Mexico pay federal minimum wage?

Federal labor law does not apply to foreign workplaces, but that's because the law was specifically written not to apply to foreign workplaces.

...ignoring is the difference between a law and the enforcement of a law.  For instance, certainly workers in US commonwealth areas like Saipan or Guam are legally protected by US labor laws...but as far as I know, the workers there are still not paid the legal minimum wage...

Not true. The minimum wage for American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands (and in the US proper for farm workers and waitresses, for example) is different from the regular minimum wage, but the law still applies in those places, and is enforced.

Bringing this back to Blackwater...Is it subject to US law abroad?  Maybe...I'll even give that point to you.  Will it ever be subject to enforcement of said law?

Show me some evidence that Blackwater isn't paying their taxes on income derived from overseas operations, and that the IRS isn't bothering to try to enforce the law, and maybe I'll concede your point.

The fact of the matter is when people here are saying silly things like "Blackwater is above the law" they are ignoring (or don't understand) that there are no laws that apply to the issues they are talking about. There is no need for "layers of congressional obfuscation" when there aren't any laws in the first place.

Not true. The minimum wage for American Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands (and in the US proper for farm workers and waitresses, for example) is different from the regular minimum wage, but the law still applies in those places, and is enforced.

Damn...you're good.  Amazing that I didn't mention Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands.  I did, however mention Saipan and Guam.  Hey, there's no wage problem in Samoa, PR, and VI...therefore, wages must be ok in ALL US territories and commonwealths, right?

Classic...just classic.

Focusing on the US Commonwealth of Saipan, perhaps things there weren't as enforced as one would think.  Unless of course, poor wages and appalling work conditions are the new fair labor standards.  

Getting back to Blackwater...who the hell said anything about taxes?  Fuck taxes...I'm more concerned about illegal/undeclared/secret wars that may or may not be happening, given your mission if you choose to accept it, I can't recall with plausible deniability.

Perhaps you're right though.  I see your point about the existence of laws.  For instance, it would be illegal to send in the special forces to conduct war like secret attacks on enemies or potential enemies.  However, it is probably virginally legal to send in Blackwater types to do dirty work that Congress or worse, the American people, might not approve of.  Nothing to see here...move along move along.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

I didn't mention Samoa, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands.  I did, however mention Saipan and Guam.  Hey, there's no wage problem in Samoa, PR, and VI...therefore, wages must be ok in ALL US territories and commonwealths, right?

My point was that there are other US territories (or jobs) where the minimum wage is lower or does not apply. That does not mean that federal law doesn't apply in those areas, including labor law - it only means that the law was written to make those areas have a different minimum wage.

Are the "wages must be ok in ALL US territories and commonwealths?" According to the law they are.

You have been saying that US law does not apply to companies operating outside the US, and what I have been saying is that US law does apply to those companies if the law was written to say that it does. There are laws that specifically exempt places like Saipan and Puerto Rico from certain federal requirements. I am unaware of any such laws written for the benefit or Blackwater or other similar contractors.

However, it is probably virginally legal to send in Blackwater types to do dirty work that Congress or worse, the American people, might not approve of

I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

Tell that to the perverts in the US.

Bart, don't make fun of grad students. They've just made a terrible life choice.

I have to back Z up on this...I can't think of another US company that operated outside of the US constitution  and US laws.  I addition, I can't think of a time when the CIA hired a secret army to fight somewhere.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

I can't think of a time when the CIA hired a secret army to fight somewhere

Are you claiming that Blackwater is a secret CIA front? And you've penetrated their veil of secrecy?

Wow.

    I can't think of a time when the CIA hired a secret army to fight somewhere

Are you claiming that Blackwater is a secret CIA front? And you've penetrated their veil of secrecy?

No...I said quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.  Can't is a contraction of the word cannot  However, since you bring it up, we can argue whether or not Blackwater will be used by the CIA all day.  However, one would have to be blind or naive  not to see that there are some pretty cozy relationships between the CIA and Blackwater.

Now I'm no geopolitical wonk, but the phrase Air America/Blackwater has a nice ring to it.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

    I can't think of a time when the CIA hired a secret army to fight somewhere

Are you claiming that Blackwater is a secret CIA front? And you've penetrated their veil of secrecy?

No...I said quite the opposite, as a matter of fact.  Can't is a contraction of the word cannot  However, since you bring it up, we can argue whether or not Blackwater will be used by the CIA all day.  However, one would have to be blind or naive  not to see that there are some pretty cozy relationships between the CIA and Blackwater.

Now I'm no geopolitical wonk, but the phrase Air America/Blackwater has a nice ring to it.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

IMO this sub thread is spiritually focused on the right direction but substantively off course.

The issue regarding Blackwater and legality doesn't revolve around:

Labor Laws - domestic, international, or whatever specific US treaties are written BY CONGRESS to allow what amounts to legalized slave & child labor in foreign sweat shop hellholes so that Wallmart and Target can be chock full of ridiculously cheap shit.  The US Govt has legalized all of that and continues to do so it really is the subject for another thread.

Tax Laws - Blackwater USA no doubt pays as much in taxes as any other law abiding US corporation does depending on how the accounting is set up - why would they want to give their enemies the strategy of criticizing them that has been famous since Al Capone?    

CIA relationships - another troubling issue regarding the extremely permeable circumstances between actual government security agency personnel who have extensive knowledge of our nations official secrets and employment in private security firms to carry out similar security functions/roles in their jobs only once in the private sector their allegiance is to their management and 'owners' rather than to the United States directly as was the case when they were public servants.  As of now it appears to be legal (as Zyx would point out) and so it can be fairly stated 'they haven't broken the law' but as to the question of IF THAT IS 'RIGHT' to have a revolving door and open brain drain for national secrets is not answered by ' it's legal'.

The Blackwater discussion IMO should be focused on:

Since Blackwater performs roles similar if not identical to the US Armed forces in foriegn theaters like Iraq do they have to obey the same rules of engagement, conduct restrictions/regulations, and/or requirement to report any/all engagements/actions resulting in injury or death of human beings (good, bad, or bystanders) to their command structure so that it can be recorded and analyzed by command personnel who are aware of their responsibility to strongly encourage compliance with all laws regarding how US Armed forces are to behave in the field and appropriate corrective action taken when those forces behave in 'error'.  

You see - I am not so sure that Blackwater has to worry much about that stuff IN PRACTICE since they do not have the US Military internal mechanisms for monitoring 'complaints' regarding any possible incidents which have been established by the US Military to ensure the openly fair and just treatment of US soldiery - they have a management team - like any business which plays the role of leader and enforcer of 'justice/legality' all out of self interest  in pursuit of personal profit (which arguably is a strong motivator). This same management team also controls internal information flow and so there is an inherent conflict of interest for those businessmen who may here reports of 'mistakes' or wrongdoing by their employees which would result in severe financial penalties (and possibly jail time) for all involved and that SAME motivator of pursuing personal profit now serves to make covering up/restricting/suppressing  'unfavorable' information (such as evidence of criminal wrongdoing/malfeasance/negligence - or Murder/Slaughter of innocents/Shooting anyone you damn well please whenever you feel like it because who is going to stop you?) and STRONGLY discouraging your employees from introducing 'unfavorable' information into the corporate communication data stream (STFU whistle blowers or suffer consequences).  This is behavior that is rampant in American Business as recent history has shown (Enron, Worldcom, etcetera) and it would be unreasonable to assume that Blackwater or any company should somehow exhibit a immunity to it.  Indeed, the mother of a Blackwater employee killed in Falluja has been fighting to get the evidence for the particular circumstances of her sons death from Blackwater and has been met with stonewalling and attempts to obfuscate or otherwise prevent clear access/transparency to what actions were taken and decision made by Blackwater leadership leading up to her son's death.  Accountability becomes a legal matter   and it can only be compelled by winning repeated court decisons - the US military got in hot water for attempting a similar policy of distortion surrounding the death of Pat Tillman, it remains unclear if Blackwater will prove immune to similar types of questioning/scrutiny.

So the question of Blackwater IMO should be - Can the be held accountable for their actions and will their actions be transparent in a manner at least equivalent to what exists for the US Military?
 If Yes then what mechanism of oversight exists to provide a reasonable guarantee that oversight and transparency exists? (the US Military has a system - does Blackwater?)

If No then why not?  What is the reasonable explanation for not having a reliable means to ensure that armed agents of the US (private or public employees) who can and do use armed force resulting in the deaths of human beings are complying with those rules and regulations which have been legally stipulated by the US Govt?  Is it ignorant to assume that the number of incidents where those rules and regulations are not followed might be higher when they can occur without repercussion/accountability to the agents involved?

"...when theft and high crime becomes obscenely obvious to even the blindest beer sucking idiot, it is always the Republicans who are in office." -- Joe Bageant

The lack of oversight and external review seems like the biggest problem with these kinds of operations.

I realize that the Rotten Library is probably the last place to go for responsible journalism, but they have an interesting little article on CACI International, which is a private military contractor based in Britain that got in some hot water after Abu Ghraib broke. The article points out that basically, we're using a foreign company to store vast amounts of U.S. military secrets as well as carry out security operations in Iraq. This set up a massive conflict of interest when CACI contractors were accused of taking part in the torture at Abu Ghraib, essentially allowing them to claim ignorance and stonewall without any potential repercussions. Incidents like these make it clear there are plenty of accountability gaps in the realm of private military contractors, and the lack of transparency is even more profound when dealing with a company based outside the U.S. Whatever accountability now exists for Blackwater will surely be weaker once their "international" arm starts to grow some muscle. Combine that with the Dominionist tendencies of the the company founders, and there are plenty of reasons to start feeeling uncomfortable.

-secretpath

Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but since no one was listening, we must begin again. -Andre Gide

Actually, CACI International is an American company, headquartered in Arlington, Virginia.  They do have offices in London, but they are a Red, White & Blue outfit.  The vast majority of their contracts are with the DoD and a lot of it is fairly prosaic stuff -- developing and managing logistics systems, writing computer code for systems, doing management training and the like.  They really can't be expected to get far away from the DoD teat as that's really the only food source most CACI employees, especially management types know -- most of them are retired military relying upon their previous areas of expertise to produce newer contracts for the company.  Back in the day when I worked for the Department of the Navy we used to believe that CACI stood for Captains And Commanders Incorporated.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

Bah, don't I feel foolish. Serves me right for not doing even the barest hint of fact-checking, I suppose... Thanks for the clarification.

Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but since no one was listening, we must begin again. -Andre Gide

The first thing I thought of when I read Blackwater was opening an intelligence unit was that they'd could actually be competition for the CIA.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's