Politics

As Goes Vermont, So Goes The Nation - In The Rear View Mirror, Fading Into The Distance

MayorBob.

Posted to Politics on Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 08:28:08 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

You might think this would be a dead issue, what with that Civil War fought in the 19th century.  However, it really isn't because there is nothing in the US Constitution which says it can't happen.  Therefore, in keeping with their generally independent spirit, Vermonters might just part company from the rest of the US.

The secession of Vermont from the US is not what you would call imminent.  Demonstrations at the statehouse in Montpelier only draw a few hundred people.  When polled on the question, most of the public would prefer to remain part of the US.  However, the latest poll results showed a one year increase from 8 percent in favor to 13 percent in favor of secession.  The main secessionist push in the state is chronicled in the Vermont Commons.  Rob Williams, editor for the Commons, identifies a few salient issues informing the drive to separate -- "electoral fraud, rampant corporate corruption, a culture of militarism and war."  According to Williams:

"If you care about democracy and self-governance and any kind of representative system, the only constitutional way to preserve what's left of the Republic is to peaceably take apart the empire."
Peaceably is the key word here as there won't be a reprise of the Confederacy's attack on a federal installation to kick off secession this time.  Most of the political drive toward secession is fueled by the Second Vermont Republic, founded by Thomas Naylor.  Naylor took a look at the question of whether it was constitutional for Vermont to succeed.  The answer according to Naylor is yes.

There are other voices calling for secession.  The Middlebury Institute hosted a secessionist convention last year in Vermont and is planning one this year in Tennessee.  Although it was always considered more of a tourism gimmick than a call to rebel, Key West, Florida announced its secession back in 1982.  The real question is, could secession succeed?  If the political will up in Vermont calls for separation and they vote to secede, how long would it take for the federal government to move to force it back into the union?  Could it come to force of arms?  Or would the US just allow Vermont to go it alone and hope that economic realities force it to reconsider?  One professor at the University of Vermont believes it could succeed economically as "people would obviously relish coming to the Republic of Vermont, the Switzerland of North America."  Other Vermonters, like Paul Gilles, believe it's not a very well thought out idea: "It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make political sense, it doesn't make historical sense. Other than that, it's a good idea."  

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, secession, Vermont (all tags)

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1

The logic of secession

skeptic.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 08:59:56 AM EST

none

Considering the size of the US national debt, it must be tempting for every state to secede.  The abandoned Federal government, having no remaining constituent states, would simply be bankrupt and would necessarily default on its loans.  This would also be a quick way to get out of the Iraq war.  This also solves the problem of how to fund the growing demands of social security (all federal programs just disappear).

I found it very interesting, when the USSR disintegrated, that every one of the Soviet republics, including Russia itself, voted to secede when the issue was put up for vote.  There was literally not one republic that preferred to remain part of the USSR.  

Canada has come extremely close to coming apart, with a series of votes on secession only narrowly defeated in Quebec, and the issue is by no means dead.  Secessionists remain very active and are as determined as ever.  They may eventually succeed.

There is always a tendency for people to think (often correctly) that their particular region of a larger country is not getting the treatment it deserves.  Regional loyalties are often stronger than national loyalties.  Secession may be the wave of the future.

At the same time, all the new, smaller countries can still have good international treaties and cooperation.  The European Union is an example of how that can be done.  So American states, and Canadian provinces, and various other political entities may in the future simply prefer a looser form of association.  I think that would probably work quite well.

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Re: The logic of secession

dgraham.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 09:25:20 AM EST

none

You know, I don't think I'd be opposed to a larger number of smaller countries. Of course, then I'd be worried about bullying to these new less powerful countries by major corporations...

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Re: The logic of secession

pO157.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 09:59:51 PM EST

none

There is always a tendency for people to think (often correctly) that their particular region of a larger country is not getting the treatment it deserves.  Regional loyalties are often stronger than national loyalties.  Secession may be the wave of the future.

This may be somewhat true now, but barring peak oil or some kind of alien invasion I believe this will become less and less of a factor. Due to the wonders of the internal combustion engine and the interwebs you are seeing people becoming more and more mobile. In fact, in my short life I have lived in five states as a permanent resident and will probably move again several more times as jobs and career opportunities present themselves. Over time I think you'll see more homogenization of society in general.

Bart, don't make fun of grad students. They've just made a terrible life choice.

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Re: The logic of secession

skeptic.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 08:26:29 AM EST

none

It's true, we are seeing more homogenization of society, and perhaps that will in due course outweigh the tendency toward regionalism.  In a more ideal world, society would be homogenized to the extent that we would all just consider ourselves to be citizens of the planet Earth, and have no more specific regional loyalties than that.  Then there would be a lot less for everybody to fight about.

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Re: The logic of secession

thefadd.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 01:33:53 PM EST

none

in my short life I have lived in five states as a permanent resident and will probably move again several more times as jobs and career opportunities present themselves.

By that same measure, people are more and more able to congregate with other people of a well-developed world outlook. I feel greater allegiance to my adopted state and its political outlook than I do to some of the others that I lived in for necessity. Perhaps, as places like Vermont are able to bolster their independent spirit and draw more people of like mind, it will become increasingly clear to people that they'd rather not be attached so directly to the others around them with whom they disagree.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

3

In A Word- No

uncarved block.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 09:59:48 AM EST

none

   In order for this to succeed, a majority of the residents would have to think of themselves as Vermonters first and Americans second. From afar, this seems unthinkable; patriotism is sold and consumed in massive quantities all over the nation, and the notion that there's a pocket where this isn't so feels unlikely.
    Does this mean anything, beyond the expression of discontent by a minority percentage? Mine isn't the only way to think of it, but my first reaction is that this is a symptom of a larger intolerance of and for disagreement among Americans at large. The reasons are varied (marketing, the decrease in public spaces to interact with a range of citizens, the cult of individualism, etc), but in many facets of modern life in the US, even the smallest difficulty in the public square can lead to exasperation, even contempt. Most often this just leads to rants and outbursts against "those other people" that are ruining a good thing, but occasionally, as here, there's a public face to it. (Earlier variations include the League of the South and the Southern Party.)  While I personally feel this is a waste of time and money, and a sign of societal deterioration in general, it could be a lot worse.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

4

No, you can't

profwhat.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 03:38:22 PM EST

none

Jeez, talk about rehashing extremely well-settled issues.  The Constitution does not allow states to secede without the assent of the other states.  Period.  Let's ask Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase, author of Texas v. White:


When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired.


The essay linked to in the writeup that argues that Vermont can secede never mentions this case.  Not sure why; maybe because it was written by an insane crackpot?

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What'd Suck For Puerto Rico

thefadd.

Sat Jun 09, 2007 at 04:56:39 PM EST

none

would be if the voted themselves in just in time for everyone else to leave.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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Re: What'd Suck For Puerto Rico

pO157.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 10:03:26 PM EST

none

If they vote themselves in they better merge another state or kick some area out. Think of all the trouble it will cause for people. For one, the obsessive compulsive disorder folks will freak out because the # of states just isn't a round number anymore. Next, all the high school civics students will go crazy trying to figure out how many senators it would take to override a veto or somesuch. AND they'd have to go through and reprint all the promotional literature about the country and weave new flags.

It would be like the supposed switch to metric times a million!

Bart, don't make fun of grad students. They've just made a terrible life choice.

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Re: No, you can't

skeptic.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 12:58:35 PM EST

none

That is certainly a clear legal ruling.  However, if the state of Vermont does attempt to secede, would the federal government be willing to use force to prevent that secession?  I suppose that if this were to happen in the concluding years of the Bush administration, the answer would be yes it would.

But at some point, and under some more sane administration, it may very well be that strict enforcement of the judicial decision rendered in Texas v. White would just not be as important as avoiding a civil war.  Having to kill the honest citizens of Vermont just because they don't agree with Texas v. White would be a terrible tragedy, don't you think?

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Re: No, you can't

Lou.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 02:05:19 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

That is certainly a clear legal ruling.  However, if the state of Vermont does attempt to secede, would the federal government be willing to use force to prevent that secession?

Well, Bush might feel squeamish about sending in the troops...however, Blackwater might relish the opportunity to wipe out rebelling organic dairy farmers and vegan restaurant owners.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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The first ones up against the wall.

MayorBob.

Sun Jun 10, 2007 at 07:36:24 PM EST

none

Those commie hippies Ben and Jerry -- Blackwater can dip them head first into a melted cauldron of Cherry Garcia and Chunky Monkey.  Oh wait, they don't own the company any longer.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Re: No, you can't

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 06:21:31 PM EST

none

Do you think the Confederate states had the right to secede?

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the Civil War

skeptic.

Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 08:51:23 AM EST

5.00 (interesting, interesting)

The Civil War was a morally and legally complicated situation.  As thefadd pointed out, seceding was one thing and firing on Fort Sumpter was another - although some historians have claimed that the attack on Fort Sumpter was just a pretext for a war that was going to happen anyway, and that the attack might even have been faked by the North.  

But aside from that, there was the issue of slavery.  Slavery was, of course, enshrined in the original US constitution, so you couldn't legally go to war about it, yet slavery was morally indefensible and had to be stopped, at virtually any cost.  I would personally say that the moral imperative to end slavery was greater than the moral imperative to respect the constitutionally guaranteed rights of the southern, slave-holding states.  You could then point out, if you wanted to, that the North went to war to prevent the South from seceding, not to end slavery.  The end of slavery was actually just a military strategy. Lincoln wanted to be motivate the slaves to desert their masters and to join the forces of the North.  Slaves were better motivated to do that, knowing that they would not just wind up as slaves again when the war was over.  This gave them something important to fight for.  It was a clever strategy.  Nonetheless, the practical consequence of the Civil War was to end slavery, and therefore it must be considered a morally justified war.  So in that sense, I would say no, the Confederacy did not have a right to secede.  If the slaves are granted no rights, then I equally well deny that the slave owners have rights.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.  If you don't believe in human rights, then you don't have any.

If we did not have the issue of slavery to deal with, I personally would have believed that the Southern states, who had joined the United States voluntarily, also had the voluntary right to withdraw.  I also believe that the basic principles of democracy would very much support the right of any group of people to make their own decision about which political entity they would want to belong to or would not want to belong to.  Democracy, ultimately, is about giving people the kind of government that they want, rather than forcing upon them the kind of government that they don't want.  It is about governing with the consent of the people.  If the people do not consent, then the government loses its democratic legitimacy.  

So in general, I believe that any section of any larger political entity should have the right to secede if it wants to.  There probably should be some minimum size requirement.  (I would speculate that a population of at least 50,000 is reasonable to qualify for independence.)  It would be ridiculous if, let us say, a family of four decides to secede and form their own country.  If that were acceptable, then we might as well give up on government entirely, and declare a general anarchy.  I would also say that if the human race manages to become more socially advanced, then anarchy does become an attractive option.  With no governments, it would never be necessary for anybody to secede, since there would be nothing to secede from.

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Re: No, you can't

thefadd.

Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 11:19:37 PM EST

none

Confederate states had the right to secede. They didn't have the right to fire on Fort Sumter. The South's many and myriad strategic miscues are well documented, the valor of Robert E. Lee notwithstanding.

make it rain you nappy headed ho's

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I'd Reverse That

uncarved block.

Tue Jun 12, 2007 at 01:57:11 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

    I would argue that the Southern states had no right to unilaterally secede, though any state probably could via constitutional amendment-- if a majority of the rest of the nation no longer wants you, perhaps it's best for everyone if there's a split. (There's also the possibility that a majority of states could, essentially, expel one or more states via this process, though "division" would be a better word than "secession" in that case.) The argument that this makes it easy to enter the Union but hard to leave doesn't sway me much; most legal contracts are easy to enter, but hard to exit, unless the circumstances are agreed upon beforehand. Not the case then, nor in the case of Vermont today.
    War, OTOH, is its own justification. A nation founded on armed rebellion as a colony can't- or at least shouldn't- ignore the reality of violence as a means of self determination. Whoever wins is "right", as has been the case throughout history, IMO. Machiavelli saw this clear enough, and the fact he was labeled "a most evil man" for centuries shows how much kings, presidents, and intellectuals like to avoid or obscure where state power really comes from. ("Death is the coin of the realm for the state", as Robert Anton Wilson puts it bluntly.) It isn't very pretty, and certainly not consistent, but IMHO that's the way it is.
    I'm not as far out as to follow Crowley's Rights Of Man to the letter, but it's a lot closer than many other thinkers I've read.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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