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You Can't Hide Your Scrying Eyes--Predict Harry Potter's End

3fingerspointback.

Posted to Media on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:13:22 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

On Saturday the 21st of July, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows is set to go on sale world-wide.  Already an Amazon all-time bestseller before it even ships, brick-and-mortar stores across the globe are bracing for the inevitable crush of buyers, to be followed by wails of despair the following day as Pettigrew kills Hermione in chapter 14.

Hah!  So maybe she doesn't.  Or maybe she does, I don't know.  I suppose you could seek out the leaked scans if you absolutely must know now.  But isn't it more fun to speculate about this stuff?  Who lives?  Who dies?  What will you be reading next?

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by 3fingerspointingback, books, literature, Harry Potter (all tags)

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1

It Must Be Witchcraft.

MayorBob.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:04:29 PM EST

none

It looks like Christian ministers are starting to warm to Harry Potter just as the franchise comes to an end.  It seems some of them have been able to get past the whole witches and wizard thing and take a look at the message within.  

Illegitimi non carborundum.

7

^ 1

I've never read a page of any Harry Potter book

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 04:20:09 PM EST

none

But isn't the message within the problem? Harry Potter is innately special and superior, and his magical powers exist within himself and all he needs to do great things and be a great person is draw upon what's already within him. The religious view is that a man must overcome his flawed inner self, and this is done by actions taken in the real world. This conception is reflected in most of what's considered great Western literature - and not so great. Genre fiction such as westerns and private eye novels reflect it too.

12

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Genre Expectations

uncarved block.

Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 09:57:57 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

    I also haven't read a page of Potter, but do know a little about the fantasy genre. If you take Tolkien as the main source for most subsequent fantasy written since, the issue of an innately superior hero is there from the start. Aragorn's genealogy is a major factor in his success (being able to use the Palantir, commanding an army of ghosts, etc), but even the more normal Frodo- the real hero of the story- comes from a line of exceptional individuals. Even after a couple times through the trilogy, the impression that other, more normal men (or hobbits!) would have failed due to a lack innate qualities still remains
    From what I've heard, and a little that I've read, this was a big argument that Tolkien and CS Lewis had about fantasy, and the nature of evil. I've only read Perelandra, but it's very close to the what you describe* as the religious view. The main character in Perelandra is nothing exceptional, and the final confrontation in fact boils down to a fist fight between two elderly professors. (The villain is possessed by an evil spirit, but it lends him no physical strength, and actually diminishes his ability to reason; Lewis asserted that evil was a lack or absence, and stuck with that in his fiction.) I can't remember much of Narnia, but I don't recall the kids being exceptional either-- though nobody remembers, because Aslan is such a strong character.
    Would fantasy have ever caught on in the US the same way if Lewis had beat Tolkien into the popular culture? I have serious doubts. Lewis was a better thinker, but Tolkien was a better story teller, and as Aristotle and Plato noted, the better "liar" usually wins that contest :)

    *I'm on weaker ground here, but I've caught intimations from the back of books I've shelved that there's a line of thinking that Grace makes its recipients superior in a fallen world. Grace is an external factor, but it sounds a lot closer to innate in practice than simply acting in the real world, because unredeemed men and women can act virtuously, but it won't mean anything (or as much) without the presence of the Divine will. But again, I'm no theologian, so I may have this backwards. If I'm correct, though, the line between Harry Potter and what you call religious is a lot closer- for some- than it appears at first.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Genre Expectations

Steve Urkel.

Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 01:26:58 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, interesting)

Unlike pagan heroes, Frodo isn't the best warrior (at the beginning he isn't even competent) or the most cunning. He isn't superior by birth, like a king or an elf, and he doesn't have supernatural powers, like a wizard. But he's chosen to carry the ring instead of all of those who do have these qualities because he posesses humility and decency that they, superior in ability, lack. And as he is challenged by events he overcomes human flaws and fears to do the right thing. This is Christian allegory. In comparison pagan heroes fight for things like glory, power, and riches.

Potter is special before doing anything, it's only a matter of revealing his special powers. In contrast to Tolkeins world it's the ordinary people who hold the special people like Potter back. This is the territory of gnostic heresy.

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Part And Whole

uncarved block.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:16:32 PM EST

none

   Is there a Christian allegorical element in Frodo's part of LotR? Wouldn't deny it for a second, and would add that Sam's performance is also an interesting example of Christian duty playing out in tough conditions. I'm still wary, though, for two reasons: Tolkien hated allegory (he says so repeatedly), and the fact that Frodo actually fails at the very last. Simple deus ex machina? An argument that some natural forces (Sauron is a corrupted earth spirit) are too strong to resist? I don't know.
    But Frodo is only part of the larger story, and that's what I was getting at (badly) in my first post. Tolkien sure spends a lot of time in LotR with some decidedly pagan elements of Middle Earth (Bombadil, the Rohirrim, the Ents and Elves, even the Wild Men), as well as promoting an environmentalist/anti-industrial theme throughout (see especially the "Cleansing of the Shire" chapters.) Judging by time and attention alone, Tolkien spent a lot more time with the Elves, even if the Silmarillion was the only thing that appeared in print while he was alive. It's very easy, on a first or even third reading, to overlook the Christian elements, unless you're looking for them. Looking at the fantasy written after Tolkien's success, most writers seemed to think that Aragorn and Gandalf were the heroes of the books, and not Frodo. But then writers haven't always been the most observant  readers, eh?

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Part And Whole

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:36:14 PM EST

none

Frodo fails? I never read the series to the end, and I only saw the first of the movies.

"Looking at the fantasy written after Tolkien's success, most writers seemed to think that Aragorn and Gandalf were the heroes of the books"

That's a reflection on what sells these days and who those writers are and what their abilities are.

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Yes (SPOILER!)

uncarved block.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:48:02 PM EST

none

    At the very last moment, he decides to keep the Ring for himself, and it's only due to an ironic intervention by Gollum that the Ring is destroyed. The painful contrast between the public acclaim for Frodo's success and the private knowledge that he actually failed at the last is the most poignant part of the narrative, IMO, and what makes the last chapters essential to closing out the story. It's especially touching when you know some of the biographical details behind the books, but that's really extraneous to the discussion at hand.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Yes (SPOILER!)

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 02:01:38 PM EST

none

That's a good ending. Such falibility is part of the Christian message, though, isn't it?  Pagan heroes either win outright or get killed gloriously in battle.

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I Guess So

uncarved block.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:18:59 PM EST

none

    You could point to the very non-Christian Greek dramas as a counter-example of nuanced pagan characters, especially Euripedes. If you're thinking of the Norse and Germanic traditions, though- the ones Tolkien studied closely- then you're correct. You should really go and finish the trilogy, though, especially the supposedly boring appendixes at the back. Really provides a lot of depth to the narrative.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: I Guess So

Steve Urkel.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:46:40 PM EST

none

Those dramas are tragedies, though. The proper Greek equivalent would be the Oddysey, which ends with Odysseus butchering all the hangers-on at his house.

I won't be going back and finishing it, I really can't get past all the conventions of the genre.

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^ 24

Re: I Guess So

thefadd.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:54:09 PM EST

none

I won't be going back and finishing it, I really can't get past all the conventions of the genre.

Me neither. Pretty low on the scale of places I'm going to look for moral guidance at the end of the day. Horribly interesting to read about in passing where many do, though.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

2

I Predict He Dies

thefadd.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:35:06 PM EST

none

I also predict I will never read any of the books or see any of the movies.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

3

The easy cop-outs....

Dvandom.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:35:13 PM EST

none

Harry dies, around 2070.  The epilogue is Harry's deathbed reminiscences about what happened after the death of Voldemort.

Harry dies, clinically, but is revived by CPR applied by Hermione (who, being daughter of Muggle medical professionals (okay, dentists, but still) knows basic non-magical first aid).  But it's enough death to satisfy prophecy.

Someone dies, but they're revealed to have been replaced by a shape-shifting Nargle halfway through the Half-Blood Prince.

This is not a signature.

4

Harry's End

logan.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:39:33 PM EST

none

Ron discovers Harry in bed with Hermione and runs off in crying in a fit of jealous betrayal. He runs into Malfoy and spills his guts. Malfoy, seeing an opportunity, turns Ron to the Dark Side. He plays upon Ron's unrequited love of Hermione, his jealousy of Harry's fame, and plays a class warfare card, noting Harry's fabulous wealth. Ron kills Hermione, then dons her skin to lure Harry into a trap and kill him. When Harry seduces what he thinks is Hermione, Ron discovers that his deep love for his friend Harry has blossomed and the two of them fuck like Brokeback Cowboys.

Malfoy's original intent is to burst into the room, stop Ron from killing Harry then call a truce. Malfoy would report Ron for Hermione's murder, sending him off to Azkaban prison. Ron's father, now disgraced, would be unable to rally the Ministry of Magic to prevent a coup by the Deatheaters. Since Ron has diverged from the plan and returned to Harry's side, Malfoy breaks the spell that gave Ron Hermione's appearance, and bursts into the room. Harry, now realizing that he's boning Ron and not Hermione, shrinks back in panic. Malfoy, seething with betrayal attacks Ron, and reveals the ultimate plan: Malfoy would then cast a love spell on Harry and the two would kill the remaining members of the Wizard Council and all the younglings at Hogwarts and rule the Galaxy together.

Ron and Harry now realize that they have both been set up. They kill Malfoy, dress his body in the garb of a Deatheater, and place him by Hermione's corpse. They report the murder to Dumbledore, claiming that they discovered Malfoy in the midst of a wizard sacrifice and killed him, but were unable to save Hermione. Harry harnesses the resulting publicity by creating a hysteria about the return of the Deatheaters and runs for President of the Magical World. Harry wins in a highly-controversial race eventually decided by the Supreme Wizards' Court, and immediately declares marital law and begins imprisoning all Deatheaters, Deatheater sympathizers, Deatheater programs, Deatheater-related programs, sympathizers of Deatheater-related programs, and the Dursleys. As further attacks by the Deatheaters fail to materialize even in the face of increasing rhetoric about the grave danger they present, Harry's popularity fades. Finally, on the eve of the next election, Vice President Ron arranges for a lone wand-man to kill Harry during a public appearance and assumes the Presidency.

Twenty years later, JK Rowling announces a second series of books covering the adventures of Harry's Parents. The hype is staggering, dominating pop culture for months. The books, however, suck, and tens of thousands of fans scream in betrayal at the months they wasted standing in line for the first printing. Rowling, now the richest person on Earth, is heard to say "Ha ha ha. Ka-ching!"

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

5

^ 4

Re: Harry's End

dzetetes.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:29:37 PM EST

none

They report the murder to Dumbledore

Mista Dumbledore, he dead.

In regione caecorum, rex est luscus.

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Re: Harry's End

logan.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 12:30:45 PM EST

4.50 (brilliant)

That's what they WANT you to believe. Dumbledore faked his own death so he could go underground and hunt for Moaning Myrtle's real killer. Snape agreed to take the rap for Dumbledore's murder so he could infiltrate Azkaban prison and search for the hidden evidence that would prove the Malfoy family's link to the Deatheaters. Harry, of course, has been in contact with Dumbledore the whole time using Dobby the House Elf to pass messages.

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

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Re: Harry's End

thefadd.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:25:18 PM EST

none

Now, THAT I would love to read.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

6

^ 4

Re: Harry's End

3fingerspointback.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:48:10 PM EST

none

Didn't I already read this on a fan fiction site?  Like, twice?

(is 3fingerspointback)

30

^ 6

Re: Harry's End

logan.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:17:55 PM EST

none

Nope, I haven't posted it yet. Which reminds me, I'm looking for actors for my Clerks Fan Film. I need 5-10 families who are willing to dress as Jay and Silent Bob, don't have a problem with their kids being exposed to profanity, and are are willing to sing "Berserker".

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

8

Wussification of our youthination

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 04:29:14 PM EST

none

A recent fight I was in with a group of youths makes me wonder if the Harry Potter obsession hasn't dorkified, wussificated, and enpansied our young people, though to be fair when I was 9 years old I probably would've cried too if a grown man roundhouse kicked me and my friends in the head because we were skateboarding too close to his parked car.

9

^ 8

You think you had it bad?

Lou.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 05:04:16 PM EST

none

When I was 9 I was given a roundhouse kick by a grown man...just for breathing!

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

10

^ 9

Re: You think you had it bad?

MayorBob.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 05:51:55 PM EST

none

When I was 9 I used to walk five miles to school and back, in the driving snow and rain, uphill both ways.  And then my dad would give me the roundhouse kick.

Now get off my lawn!

Illegitimi non carborundum.

11

^ 9

Re: You think you had it bad?

Steve Urkel.

Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 05:57:31 PM EST

none

The good old days!

13

^ 8

Re: Wussification of our youthination

thefadd.

Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 03:03:09 PM EST

none

In the inimitable words of South Park -- "We're playing Lord of the Rings, what are you playing?" "Harry Potter" "Dorks!"

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

14

^ 13

Re: Wussification of our youthination

logan.

Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 06:14:10 PM EST

none

Actually, the exchange is :

Stan: "What are you kids doing?"
Kid: "We're playing Harry Potter."
Cartman: "Hah, FAGS!"

IMHO, that's the funniest bit in all 11 seasons of South Park. I haven't laughed that hard since The Spirit of Christmas.

-=Logan
Research, facts, a Republican needs not these things.

15

Bridge to Terabithia

pO157.

Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 01:21:58 PM EST

none

All of this speculation somehow reminds me of when I was a little smart-aleck kid. My cousin was reading "Bridge to Terabithia" at a family reunion. She was going over and over about about how wonderful of a book it was, how meaningful it made her life, etc.

Of course, I decided to be the usual contrary character I was and started ragging on it repeatedly despite never having actually read it. I railed on the book and how stupid it was in vague generalities so it wouldn't be obvious that I had not even heard of it before.

Anyway, she called my bluff. "Oh yeah?! Nobody who read it would think it was so horrible. If you DID really read it what was the ending?"

Shit. I was trapped. Without thinking I quickly opened my mouth and stammered "Uhhh... she dies at the end."

I then realized by the way my cousin started slowly crying and backing away that I had truly pulled the rabbit out of the hat. Man, I was an ass when I was younger.

The point of this story is, 3fingerspointback, won't you feel bad if the kid is actually killed by getting hit by the Dursley's car?

Epilogue: At the last family gathering, years later, my sister told me that my cousin was asking everybody if they wanted to go see the movie remake of "Bridge To Terabithia." Everybody got asked except me.

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Re: Bridge to Terabithia

thefadd.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:19:32 PM EST

3.00 (informative)

the movie remake was awful.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: Bridge to Terabithia

3fingerspointback.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:07:48 AM EST

none

I'd be surprised and impressed by Rowling if she ends the series with Harry dying in such an unexpected and mundane way.  It seems pretty obvious to me that he won't die, and that Hermione will probably come out unscathed as well.  Ron, not so much.  Snape is certainly dead.  But more to your point, I'd feel more guilty about myself if Rowling hadn't played her "two major characters die" game and set us all to guessing.

(is 3fingerspointback)

18

But what do I read NOW?

3fingerspointback.

Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:29:40 AM EST

none

We've got a nation full of people who are going to finish Book 7 by tomorrow.  What are they going to do next?  Read more fantasy?  Read something else?  Pick up The Secret?

I have no clue, but I do have a recommendation for further reading in the Potter style.  I've only read the first book of Sergei Lukyanenko's Night Watch trilogy, but I think it's the best choice to read as the continuation of Potter's story.  Not only because the adult hero works a job that Harry aspires to, but because the novel's take on morality continues the ramping complexity that Rowling took on in her work.  Night Watch may actually be the most mature fantasy novel I've ever read.

(is 3fingerspointback)

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Re: But what do I read NOW?

port1080.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:35:34 PM EST

none

I've recently fallen for George R.R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice series. It's very tightly written, well paced, etc., etc. It's not particularly "deep", however, and it replays a lot of classical fantasy themes. As far as fantasy with real meaning, I'd say those books tend to be few and far between. Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant had flashes of brilliance, but I don't feel like it quite pulled it off.

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Fuck Thomas Covenant

1fastdog.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 04:40:34 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant had flashes of brilliance, but I don't feel like it quite pulled it off.

Let's be clear: Thomas Covenant is a whiny, fucking, pussy.
It's quite the series that can have its protagonist suck the life out of every friggin' part that features 'im, eh? I love that series just as much as I fucking hate it, which makes it some kind of accomplishment, I guess...

Anyhoo, to reiterate: Whiny. Fucking. Pussy.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

31

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Re: But what do I read NOW?

3fingerspointback.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 03:11:23 PM EST

none

Funny...I'm also reading that series, but it never even occurred to me to suggest it as a successor for Harry Potter fans.  Maybe I was so hung up on the Urban Fantasy subgenre that I didn't see the rest of the field.  I agree that Martin's series is good, but with the caveat that I hated A Feast for Crows.  Martin says he started writing one book that expanded to two, but it reads like half a book mashed up with half a book's worth of filler.  I've also got the final two books of the Crown of Stars series waiting for me on my table, but it's suffered from the same mission creep problem as Song.  Agree on Donaldson.  Did you ever read his Mordant's Need series?  I preferred it to Covenant (less dreary), and it manages to actually stay on target and wrap things up after two books.

Another good contemporary fantasy choice that Potter readers might like is Charles de Lint.  China Mieville is also popular, but I hated King Rat enough that I have no interest in reading any further from him.

(is 3fingerspointback)

33

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My Old Standby Suggestion

uncarved block.

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 05:04:52 PM EST

none

    Gene Wolfe. Lots and lots of Gene Wolfe. Even his failures- at least what I've read- have interesting elements, and his skill with the language is top notch all the time. It's not fantasy, but S-F in more of the Bradbury vein, though nowhere near as foofy.
    He's even got a long set of loosely connected books, 11 or 12 in all, if you want another epic undertaking like Potter. Book of the New Sun is four books, with an optional addendum (Urth of the New Sun); the Book of the Long Sun is four books, while Book of the Short Sun runs three. I couldn't get into the second two sets, personally, but two pals of mine who did swear by them. If you want a short taste, Fifth Head of Cerberus is a personal favorite, and a good intro to Wolfe in general-- but don't expect to find it at your local used book store. The Knight and The Wizard duo will probably be easier to find, but may be a bit overwhelming as a first exposure: one of Wolfe's hallmarks is dropping as much information as possible off the page, while still presenting a followable narrative, and he takes this to an extreme in the Wizard-Knight set. (Also in the two Latro novels, but they'll probably be hard to find as well.) If you ever see a used copy of The Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories, buy it immediately! The stories are a bit of a mixed lot, but the volume is very hard to find, and you could probably sell it to someone for double what you paid for it.
    Sorry, Wolfe can make me drone on a bit. If you haven't read him already, you could definitely do a lot worse . . .

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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