Etcetera

Alas, Babylon?

pO157.

Posted to Etcetera on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:20:29 PM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

As surely all empires rise, they eventually fall. Whether it starts with a trade deficit, agriculture problems, military misadventure, loss of innovation, or all of the above and more all good things must come to an end eventually. Do current events portend a similar fate for the United States in the future?

Economics: Are we overspending and putting our National Security at Risk? The National Debt owed by the United States has increased to an eye popping $9 trillion dollars, almost half of which is owed to foreign interests. The trade imbalance is holding steady at about $60 Billion a month, a third of which went to China, and 20% of which went to OPEC countries as our nation's addiction to oil grows.  All of this as our budget and spending goes beyond "unsustainable" and the government is awash in red ink.

Education: Are we being out competed? One measure of the academic strength of a country is the number of PhDs awarded to future leaders in technical fields, as it will be those doctorate holders who make the major discoveries of their generation. The number of Science & Engineering PhDs awarded to American graduate students is rapidly declining. As early as 2003, about 1/3rd of the doctorates earned went to temporary residents, the vast majority of which are from non-western countries such as India and China. By 2005, this had increased to more than 40%, and India and China have begun competing with the US for the best students. In some fields foreign graduate students or post-doctoral scholars comprise about half of the US research staff, and at least one author notes that these bright minds make disproportionately great contributions (pdf) to their fields. In addition, while the number of foreign scholars filling research slots is increasing there is no clear indication that domestic applicants are being displaced. This may be due to worrying high school drop out rates, large domestic wash out rates in collegiate science and engineering programs, and the "brighter" students turning to careers where they can expect to make high salaries with less of an educational investment, such as: law, business and medicine.

Armed Forces: Are we stretched too thin? Military strength is strongly diminished unless it can directed against opponents and brought to bear quickly. Despite an armed forces budget slightly above that of the Cold War (adjusted for inflation), conflicts on at least two fronts have reduced the US Army to the "breaking point" and warn that it could soon "break." Experts warn that a mass exodus of mid-level officers and experienced enlisted men would cause a knowledge sink in the armed forces that would take years to begin to even reverse. The war may be making it difficult to recruit new soldiers as well -- after missing recruitment marks for May and June the Army finally surpassed its goal for July by paying out $20,000 to new enlistees who agreed to ship out within a month, adding extra recruiting staff and finding ways to encourage potential soldiers who have no intention of going to college -- a typical army incentive.

Immigration: Does the large influx of illegal immigrants put our nation at risk? The number of illegal workers in this country is so immense that any proposed mass enforcement measure at the workplace threatens to drive food and service prices up across the country as well as cause chaos in our souther neighbor. As about 70% of the farm workers in this country are here illegally the USA has become addicted to cheap foreign labor to feed itself. The government also spends billions annually in education, medicaid, and social service benefits to illegal residents, putting further pressure on the economy.

Environmental Risks: The climate and resources are becoming hot issues as the world debates how to respond. Man-made water losses and shortages loom large over the next century, and southern states will be in a severe situation by 2025. The situation is already affecting our southern border with Mexico.

National Identity: Voter turnout is dropping, the number of people locked up is increasing, savings rates are in the toilet, and church attendance is dropping.

And to top it all off? We're all getting fat.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, everything (all tags)

This story: 24 comments (2 from subqueue)
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10

Re: Alas, Babylon?

wetkarma.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 12:42:17 AM EST

3.00 (brilliant, illiterate)

If there are awards given out at end of year for best writeup, I nominate this one.

I think the very fact that such an article is being written is indicative of a problem or rather awareness of the problem.

Economics: Right -now- our economic situation is "ok"..not great, not terrible. However because of our commitments to certain spending programs (social security/medicare) the federal government in a decade or so won't be able to pay for anything (at current tax rates) except these programs and the debt. Unless we can magically grow the economy to dramatically increase government revenue, we will start seeing collapse of federal government services combined with a massive increase in taxes. My solution? Leave now and take citizenship elsewhere. This will not be solved.

Education: This is tied into economics, America has excellent collegiate level educational facilities, but our incubators (high schools/junior high) tend to be sub-par. In my opinion this is due to spending educational resources on trying to prepare everyone for college whereas its readily apparent that not everyone is going to go to college. This country's educational system is based on the factory production model while trying to churn out specialists for an information economy. Obviously it doesn't work well. That said, as the overall economics provide funding for schools, the education system will continue to be in a permanent state of existing on life support. My solution: Trade schools, school vouchers, year round class schedules, and tax incentives for parents whose kids perform above average. However if I actually had kids, I'd leave the country and enroll them in an international private school -- which would provide a far better quality of education plus give them needed language skills (Mandarin).

Armed Forces: The idea that the military is at a breaking point is somewhat of a misnomer. It is the way we fight that is taxing our resources. There is nothing wrong with our heavy infrastructure (tanks, carriers, nukes) - these are top notch. However our political inability to use them combined with creating scenarios where we are 'forced' to put boots on the ground is leading us towards failure. That said -- it is simply inconceivable to me that even our boots on the ground can be defeated either via attrition or morale. The armed forces is meeting its current recruitment goals and this is where everyone who signs up knows the score. My solution:no changes necessary. we are the best the world has ever seen.

immigration: As long as there are social programs there will be illegal immigrants. Either kill the social programs - thereby reducing the cost of immigrants, or transfer that cost to those who benefit from illegal immigrants i.e. employers. This country is built on immigration, our finest scientists (einstein, oppenheimer et al) have all been immigrants, it makes no sense for us to be anti-immigrant. We should instead cherry pick the best and brightest from other countries, and create strong disincentives to discourage the influx of unskilled labor. A wall/border fence does not accomplish this. A nationalized id system for access to social services, and heavy fines against employers who employ immigrants would make the problem manageable.

Environment: By most measures the american environment is a lot better than it was a generation ago. Air is cleaner, water too..water shortage as a resource problem does not exist in the USA. Instead what we have is lots of development in areas which are not friendly to dense populations (Nevada, Arizona). Global warming effects are already burnt in, and I see no practical solutions on the horizon despite people telling you to buy a prius. My solution: don't buy any sea-front properties and enjoy the milder winters.

national identity: being a naturalized american, I take a somewhat dim view of "americanism". Voting is rationally speaking, a waste of time and effort. If American society can't provide a cohesive vision for what it wants to be ..I don't care. Its its failure to provide for the welfare of its citizens thats concerning to me.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Alas, Babylon?

thefadd.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 07:12:12 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

Immigration is only a problem to the degree that it is being made a political hot button issue. No fix is needed for the current system because there's nothing wrong with it. The services that are provided to immigrants are not crippling our economy. In fact, in the balance, we get a very good deal as undocumented workers take lower wages to offset those costs. Some people might see fit to lobby on behalf of improving the plight of immigrants but from a macro level the "only issue" are the people who think there's a problem.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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^ 18

Re: Alas, Babylon?

Coelacanth.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 08:53:57 PM EST

none

Interesting point.  Economically, I agree, the "stealth guest worker program" we have now seems to work.  But it breeds violent stupidity wherever illegals try to cross the border.  If we could come up with a rational set of laws that codify the status of guest workers we could keep the economic sense and greatly diminish border problems.  But the radicals on both sides seem able to prevent any kind of rational compromise.

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Re: Alas, Babylon?

pO157.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 03:02:14 PM EST

none

Thank you for the kind words. I am glad somebody enjoys my writeups. :)

Economics: Right -now- our economic situation is "ok"..not great, not terrible. However because of our commitments to certain spending programs (social security/medicare) the federal government in a decade or so won't be able to pay for anything (at current tax rates) except these programs and the debt. Unless we can magically grow the economy to dramatically increase government revenue, we will start seeing collapse of federal government services combined with a massive increase in taxes. My solution? Leave now and take citizenship elsewhere. This will not be solved.

They don't call Social Security the '3rd rail' of politics for nothing.

Education: This is tied into economics, America has excellent collegiate level educational facilities, but our incubators (high schools/junior high) tend to be sub-par. In my opinion this is due to spending educational resources on trying to prepare everyone for college whereas its readily apparent that not everyone is going to go to college. This country's educational system is based on the factory production model while trying to churn out specialists for an information economy. Obviously it doesn't work well. That said, as the overall economics provide funding for schools, the education system will continue to be in a permanent state of existing on life support. My solution: Trade schools, school vouchers, year round class schedules, and tax incentives for parents whose kids perform above average. However if I actually had kids, I'd leave the country and enroll them in an international private school -- which would provide a far better quality of education plus give them needed language skills (Mandarin).

Excellent points. Time magazine wrote an interesting piece on how schools are failing gifted students. While I do not place as much blame as the article does on NCLB (even when I went to high school I felt that those with above average potential were given the shaft when compared to the "marginal or below average" students, and that was before NCLB) that definitely needs to be revisited. It is on my to-do list to write a sub based on that article unless anybody else wants to do it.

I agree with everything except international schools, although when I have children I will want to take them to as many foreign countries and experience as many cultures as possible. So far I have only been to 7 (with 2 more on tap in a few months) and I am shocked to say that this horribly small number seems to put me in the top percentile of most of my fellow countrymen.

Armed Forces: The idea that the military is at a breaking point is somewhat of a misnomer. It is the way we fight that is taxing our resources. There is nothing wrong with our heavy infrastructure (tanks, carriers, nukes) - these are top notch. However our political inability to use them combined with creating scenarios where we are 'forced' to put boots on the ground is leading us towards failure. That said -- it is simply inconceivable to me that even our boots on the ground can be defeated either via attrition or morale. The armed forces is meeting its current recruitment goals and this is where everyone who signs up knows the score. My solution:no changes necessary. we are the best the world has ever seen.

It is a political problem, and not a military one as you so aptly point out. No insurgency could ever displace the US Army and Marines if we were hell bent on staying (perhaps if there was a worthwhile cause?). However, the foreign adventures are taking a toll on the army. Not in equipment or material but in experience -- as the article in the writeup points out -- that Captain with the Silver Stars, Purple Hearts and 3 tours in Iraq and Afghanistan that would grow up to be the next member of the Joint Chiefs (as the current ones went through 'Nam) is likely to say 'the hell with it all' and leave. Same with the private who would be promoted and become an experienced drill sergeant to train the next generations of soldiers.

immigration: As long as there are social programs there will be illegal immigrants. Either kill the social programs - thereby reducing the cost of immigrants, or transfer that cost to those who benefit from illegal immigrants i.e. employers. This country is built on immigration, our finest scientists (einstein, oppenheimer et al) have all been immigrants, it makes no sense for us to be anti-immigrant. We should instead cherry pick the best and brightest from other countries, and create strong disincentives to discourage the influx of unskilled labor. A wall/border fence does not accomplish this. A nationalized id system for access to social services, and heavy fines against employers who employ immigrants would make the problem manageable.

Are you talking REAL ID there? Otherwise I am 100% behind you.

Environment: By most measures the american environment is a lot better than it was a generation ago. Air is cleaner, water too..water shortage as a resource problem does not exist in the USA. Instead what we have is lots of development in areas which are not friendly to dense populations (Nevada, Arizona). Global warming effects are already burnt in, and I see no practical solutions on the horizon despite people telling you to buy a prius. My solution: don't buy any sea-front properties and enjoy the milder winters.

Gonna have to disagree with you there in part. Look in any mid-western/western farming area with higher than normal temps whose water is also being used to fuel growth in cities or shunted south to Mexico.

national identity: being a naturalized american, I take a somewhat dim view of "americanism". Voting is rationally speaking, a waste of time and effort. If American society can't provide a cohesive vision for what it wants to be ..I don't care. Its its failure to provide for the welfare of its citizens thats concerning to me.

It seems these days 'Americanism' is nothing more than a yellow magnetic ribbon on your SUV.

I hope this thread is useful to others -- it has allowed me to realize that I have become extremely jaded and done an almost 180 in some aspects of my political leanings over the years, which is odd since pre-Bush I used to be as left-liberal as they came.

Nice post, by the way.

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^ 14

Curious

Lou.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 03:26:21 PM EST

none

which is odd since pre-Bush I used to be as left-liberal as they came.

I must not have read that right...Since Bush you have become a conservative?  I'm not being critical, mind you...I just didn't think that was possible.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 15

Re: Curious

pO157.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 04:33:57 PM EST

none

Ack! Strike that, make it 90 degrees, at least according to the chart attached to the"World's Smallest Politcal Quiz" (pdf). I went from left-leaning liberal to libertarian, and I suppose I do agree with most of their platform.

I guess the lesson here is always proof-read your rants and wistful ramblings.

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^ 16

An urgent phone call from Maine

Lou.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 04:50:47 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

"Hello, TNT Strike Team?  False alarm...I repeat False Alarm.  Pull the the Intervention Squad"

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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^ 14

Re: Alas, Babylon?

wetkarma.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:46:21 AM EST

none

Are you talking REAL ID there? Otherwise I am 100% behind you.

As a libertarian-type I understand the cons associated with REAL ID and any other alternate national id systems -- however you can't get a handle on controlling immigration unless you can create a viable method for employers to check the legal work status for employees. Unless there is a single federal database to refer to, the immigration problem can't be managed.  Additionally, we either get rid of social services based on physical presence, or start checking for authorization to access those services.

If we credibly want to address immigration, an centralized work and social service authorization database is the only way to do it. As an immigrant who has extensive records with the federal government, the development of such a system holds less fear for me than it does for the average native born american.


Gonna have to disagree with you there in part. Look in any mid-western/western farming area with higher than normal temps whose water is also being used to fuel growth in cities or shunted south to Mexico.

The thing about the Western states is that they all tend to draw from the same aquifiers -- unlike the eastern states which can support dense populations due to a higher prevalance of water resources, the western states simply are ignoring the regional geographic realities. If you built a city in the Sahara desert and inhabited it with 10million people would you find it reasonable to complain about a water shortage? The west has -never- been as rich in water as the east, this is not a climate change problem, its a human population/city management problem.

We either will have to move the water to the people (I'm talking pipelines from the Mississippi or Water Salinization plants on the west coast), or the people will have to move --Dust Bowl style -- to where the water is. However in total (the entire USA) we don't lack for water. Its just not distributed where the people have built cities -- look at the east coast cities, all near major water supplies. Now look at the west...Vegas is merely the most profligate of many examples...too many people are living in areas where there is insufficient supply.

To me that is not an environmental problem (as in our water is disappearing) but a resource issue (as in you can't draw 10 gallons from an 8 gallon jug)

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Alas, Babylon?

pO157.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 04:51:03 AM EST

none

As a libertarian-type I understand the cons associated with REAL ID and any other alternate national id systems -- however you can't get a handle on controlling immigration unless you can create a viable method for employers to check the legal work status for employees. Unless there is a single federal database to refer to, the immigration problem can't be managed.  Additionally, we either get rid of social services based on physical presence, or start checking for authorization to access those services.

Electronic SS # check when employment starts, verified with several forms of photo ID, followed by actual enforcement of the immigration laws if an employer is found to be hiring an illegal. If a illegal/terrorist can scam the right SS#/name combo and get photo ID in that name right now REAL ID ain't gonna do jack, especially since the person doing the checking will be some random $12 an hour DMV employee.

Some states (such as NYS) have already begun stamping their DLs with big bold notations saying "NOT VALID FOR ID - FOREIGN NATIONAL" and making the expiration the same as when their visa expires, even without a REAL ID mandate. There has to be a better middle ground than going all the way to "REAL ID" format.

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^ 10

Immigration and our decline

teaweed.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 02:02:34 PM EST

none

I disagree with almost every aspect of your analysis.

Immigration: As long as there are social programs there will be illegal immigrants. Either kill the social programs - thereby reducing the cost of immigrants, or transfer that cost to those who benefit from illegal immigrants i.e. employers.

As long as there are better opportunities, there will be immigration, legal and otherwise. Employment is the main opportunity illegal immigrants seek, and it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. Many of the social services given immigrants, i.e. emergency medical care, prenatal medical care and education for "anchor babies" is paid for, at least in my county by sales and property taxes. As everyone who buys stuff or pays rent contributes, I consider illegal immigrants as contributing their fair share.

This country is built on immigration, our finest scientists (einstein, oppenheimer et al) have all been immigrants, it makes no sense for us to be anti-immigrant. We should instead cherry pick the best and brightest from other countries, and create strong disincentives to discourage the influx of unskilled labor.

Unskilled labor is not a great suck, it is a great benefit. Cheap labor benefits everyone. Everyone who pays to eat fruits and vegetables are fortunate that they were not picked, processed and shipped by the likes of Einstein or Oppenheimer. Likewise, everyone who pays to live under a roof should be grateful for the affordability of housing due in part to the relatively low wages of unskilled laborers.

A wall/border fence does not accomplish this. A nationalized id system for access to social services, and heavy fines against employers who employ immigrants would make the problem manageable.

Bureaucracy makes it better. Pah.

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Re: Immigration and our decline

wetkarma.

Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:22:39 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)


As long as there are better opportunities, there will be immigration, legal and otherwise.

Agreed. Therefore if you remove the opportunity, you remove the demand for immigration. What is so objectionable to this point?


Employment is the main opportunity illegal immigrants seek, and it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. Many of the social services given immigrants, i.e. emergency medical care, prenatal medical care and education for "anchor babies" is paid for, at least in my county by sales and property taxes. As everyone who buys stuff or pays rent contributes, I consider illegal immigrants as contributing their fair share.

Yes and no. Lets assume that you are correct (you are not btw*) that immigrants pay in sales and property taxes the equivalent amount of what they use in free social services - such as education for children and medical care for themselves and their children. The two funding pools are not directly linked! An increase in sales tax revenue does not directly translate into a proportional increase in the educational/medical budget of any state.

*As an example schools are often funded from local property taxes which immigrants being at the lowest rung of the economic ladder simply don't pay into at the same level despite using the same/if not more services -- 1st gen immigrant families tend to be larger than families of suceeding generations

As a result the demand on some aspects of the economy (social services and medical) are continuously strained (if not broken) by immigrants. Since any increase to the budget of these services only makes the system more attractive to immigration, it becomes a sisyphean problem to try and fix the issue  by building more schools/hospitals-- demand is always going to outstrip supply.  Only by curbing access to the resource, the reward opportunities, can the issue me managed.

Unskilled labor is not a great suck, it is a great benefit. Cheap labor benefits everyone. Everyone who pays to eat fruits and vegetables are fortunate that they were not picked, processed and shipped by the likes of Einstein or Oppenheimer. Likewise, everyone who pays to live under a roof should be grateful for the affordability of housing due in part to the relatively low wages of unskilled laborers.

Not true at all. Some goods are cheap because the cost of production is cheap, other goods are cheap because the cost of production is subsidized. Milk as an example is cheap because the federal government exerts massive subsidies/price controls to make it so. That money however has to come from somewhere -- it isn't for free. Human Labor used to harvest crops/do other menial work is cheap only for the producer of those crops -- the society at large provides additional external costs which makes the original labor unfavorable to the society (but favorable to the laborer and employer). In the case of harvesting -- there are a variety of health problems not factored into the cost of such activity -- after all when the worker can no longer work he/she is simply replaced, and not put on a pension/retirement plan.

In a service/information based economy, the value of unskilled labor is continuously in decline. However the needs of that labor if not rising, is at least constant.


Bureaucracy makes it better. Pah.

The problem is one made by government (little fines for employers, the availability of social services and free citizenship to those born on native soil) therefore only government can fix it. IF you believe that unskilled labor immigrants are such a great asset to any country, please explain why it is that states which have disproportionate immigrant populations (California) have educational and medical system which are continuously deemed inadequate?

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: Immigration and our decline

pO157.

Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:19:19 AM EST

none

Unskilled labor is not a great suck, it is a great benefit. Cheap labor benefits everyone. Everyone who pays to eat fruits and vegetables are fortunate that they were not picked, processed and shipped by the likes of Einstein or Oppenheimer. Likewise, everyone who pays to live under a roof should be grateful for the affordability of housing due in part to the relatively low wages of unskilled laborers.

We already have a problem with unemployment and extra unskilled labor in this country. Extra workers coming and depressing salaries deprives the poor who are already here legally who have been paying their taxes and contributing their whole lives. They are forced to work for depressed salaries or become unemployed which sucks social services and benefit money from the rest of the population.

Bureaucracy makes it better. Pah.

If the bureaucracy had actually got it together enough earlier we would not be in this mess right now of excessive illegal immigration.

1

Conundrum

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 09:29:39 AM EST

none

For a few shivery moments I look out at the world today and think, "fuck...maybe this are the endtimes."

But, it only takes a glass or six of scotch for me to remember that it only looks like the endtimes are here because there are too many fundy Armageddonists in power that want  this to be the rupture.

Then, just before I pass out, I think that prophecy or man made, the end is the end.

Fuck

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

2

^ 1

Re: Conundrum

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:04:14 AM EST

none

Yeah. I mean, things are not going to hell right now. They're just on track to. The country could handle a few... decades? of deficit spending, eroding borders and trade, and military powers before everything goes tits up. And even if it did, we're not talking fall of Rome, age of barbarism and all that sci-fi crap. It would likely be something like England is now. A decline to a country that is not the superpower it used to be but a smaller influence on the world stage looking inward more than outward.

3

^ 2

Re: Conundrum

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:42:00 AM EST

none

It would likely be something like England is now. A decline to a country that is not the superpower it used to be but a smaller influence on the world stage looking inward more than outward.

Actually...all things being equal, that wouldn't be such a bad thing.  However, let's not forget the American Ego...would our national collective unconscious allow such a thing to happen?  Mainly, my focus is on the international stuff, mainly the Middle East.  Pakistan has the bomb and it looks like they could go Crazy Fundy Islamic...Iran will have the bomb soon and they are already Crazy Fundy Islamic.  Meanwhile on this side of the globe we have our own Crazy Fundy Christians embedded in national politics who on the outside and blathering about national security and what about the children, yet inside they're dancing about singing Rapture Days Are Here Again.  In the meantime, there is possibility (albeit slim) that Islam could get its collective act together.  Won't that be a fun time?!

Granted, this is probably overblown...but I still worry about how there are so many powerful people running around with heaven/paradise on their minds.

Oh yeah...I almost forgot...Crazy Fundy Jews, too.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

4

^ 3

Re: Conundrum

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:48:27 AM EST

none

Actually...all things being equal, that wouldn't be such a bad thing.

I agree. Hell, I'd be happy as a citizen of a superpower country that could keep the bullshit and military adventures to a minimum.

6

^ 4

Re: Conundrum

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:50:01 AM EST

none

I agree. Hell, I'd be happy as a citizen of a superpower country that could keep the bullshit and military adventures to a minimum.

sigh...testify brother, testify.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

7

^ 6

Re: Conundrum

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:01:34 PM EST

none

Do you think we could have a non-superpower government here which thus turns its designs to internal matters without ending up in a crazy Big Brother style dystopia seen in, say, V for Vendetta or '84? I mean, hell, it's not like there was much fuss raised when those recent domestic wiretapping laws were signed a couple weeks ago.

If the current crop of people in office were expected to stay longer than ~16 months I would be worried that the above might eventually be true (although not to the extent in those novels). That is, if they didn't have all their time occupied by foreign bullshit and military adventures.

12

^ 7

Re: Conundrum

Coelacanth.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 09:18:24 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant, informative)

If the current crop of people in office were expected to stay longer than ~16 months I would be worried that the above might eventually be true...

I'd like to believe this, and sincerely hope you are right.  But do you think the next crop, whoever it is, will actually replace safeguards on civil liberties?  It is seemingly against the nature of government to relinquish power, however gained.  For example, I'm not ecstatic about this.  If it goes ahead, can you see the next administration revoking the order?

13

^ 12

Re: Conundrum

pO157.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 02:44:23 PM EST

none

Or this garbage.

I have lost all faith in even the Democrats standing up, growing a pair, and doing jack shit to stop crap like this. And don't even get me started on how far the "small government" Republicans have strayed. Why? They have no incentive. I am starting to believe that to an elected representative the bill of rights, et al are nothing more than abstract concepts and the only thing many actually think about is how to stay in office the longest. This is where the privacy & civil liberties question comes in.

A person for the Real ID/Domestic Spying/Whatever simply couches the debate in the terms of "Oh, think of the children! We have to protect them from terrorists! Nothing to hide? Nothing to fear!" and so on. Other representatives are afraid of seeming "weak on security" (if they even give a shit any more) and refuse to do anything. God forbid they stand up on the house/senate floor, speak up against it and, gasp terror strikes? Then they'll be blamed because they didn't vote to make 75 year old Anna Smith show her lost birth certificate at the frickin' DMV to get her DL renewed so she could drive her Oldsmobile to Del Boca Vista. It wouldn't obviously be the fault of massive US foreign policy fuckups getting the whole world pissed at us and massive intelligence failures that let it happen.

Couple that with the fact that a large segment of society now will gladly give up any and all of their rights to  believe they are safe from the minuscule risk of "terrorism" and will follow any bullshit plan like lemmings, and you can see why crap like this will get approved and nobody will ever do anything about it.

5

^ 3

Re: Conundrum

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:49:51 AM EST

none

 In the meantime, there is possibility (albeit slim) that Islam could get its collective act together.  Won't that be a fun time?!

Granted, this is probably overblown...but I still worry about how there are so many powerful people running around with heaven/paradise on their minds.

Oh yeah...I almost forgot...Crazy Fundy Jews, too.

I was thinking somebody would bring something like that up. Notice I put in "declining church attendance" as one of the bad things on the laundry list above? I personally do not see that as a bad thing, and it is an interesting contrast to the religion induced shenanigans we see over in the middle east and elsewhere.

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^ 1

Last Mornings of Civilization

permazorch.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 08:11:05 AM EST

none

With the heat so high out here, 8:45 AM looks pretty apocalyptic at the downtown corner where I work, too. I'm talking a scant three days ago, on 2-for-1 Tuesday (coffee at next-door shop). The caffeine addicts make me a bit nervous-in-the-service.

Maniacal driving and domestic violence. Infidelity and suicide. While all of this isn't going down within my own family unit, it's hitting quite close.

I can go on, but I have to ready myself for work.

----- I, for one, renounce our insect overlords!

8

BTW

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:53:26 PM EST

none

Did anyone read the book by the same name?  Great book...I just wish I had read it when I was a little older.  I was 12 at the time.  Not a good thing for a hyper-imaginative drama prince to be reading.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

9

^ 8

Re: BTW

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:57:58 PM EST

none

Never read it, just thought of it as a title because I know it is on a myriad of high school and college required reading lists as a famous work of american sci-fi/alternative history literature. Cliff Notes and other online digesting companies apparently sell summaries for the book. How was it?

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