Business

How Low Can You Go?

Lou.

Posted to Business on Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 09:19:14 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Got stock?

Yesterday was not a good day for the US stock market.  The Dow Jones fell below 13,000 and given the overnight tumbling of the Asian markets things don't bode well for the market today.  There was a time when I thought that the whole of the stock market was a fiction fueled by people's imagination...and for the most part, I still feel that way.  However, given the tanking of the subprime market, this time around it seems like a dive based on an actual event (ie - subprime borrowers not paying their mortgage).

So, even with the Federal Reserve pumping billions into the economy, things continue to fall and all eyes are on the U.S. and the suspected bankruptcy of its biggest housing lender, Countrywide  Financial Corporation.  Is this just an over-correction for a housing market gone silly or will we be calling this the Crash of '07?

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by Lou, Countrywide, mortgages, home loans (all tags)

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1

Call it a crash

wetkarma.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 10:04:56 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

Stocks are getting hammered because no one is willing to step up and buy. There is a lot of companies right now whose prices are in free fall because there are literally no buyers....in international markets, there is a serious lack of liquidity.

Still every hurricane has its silver lining -- in this case, if you have cash there are bargains to be had once the bottom gets put in.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

29

Re: How Low Can You Go?

jwb.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 05:56:16 PM EST

4.50 (informative, informative)

The Fed is not printing money at all.  The billions they "injected" into the market are in the form of repurchase contracts.  In the morning, the government buys assets from banks and the banks agree to repurchase the assets, at a fixed price, at the end of the day.  Sometimes, instead of 1 day, the repurchase agreements are for a week or two weeks, at most.

This is not an inflationary tactic.  It simply replaces an illiquid asset with cash in the marketplace, which helps the market operate properly.  The only risk to the government is if one of the counterparties literally goes out of business during the day, and even then the government gets to keep whatever the asset was.

22

Silliness

Lou.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 08:49:27 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

Ok...this is just silly and further bolsters my belief that stock trading is mostly fiction...and emotional fiction at that.  Yesterday Countrywide get a huge bail out from is supporting banks and today the fed announces a 1/2 percent drop in interest.

I dunno...maybe a 1/2 percent is huge, but Countrywide is hugely in debt and still holds tens of thousands of defaulted or defaulting loans.  From my non-expert position is looks like not much has changed...

Yet as of 9:46 EDT, the market is up approx 240 points.

Happy Days Are Here Again?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

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^ 22

Re: Silliness

wetkarma.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 10:33:24 AM EST

4.00 (astute)


Yet as of 9:46 EDT, the market is up approx 240 points.

Happy Days Are Here Again?

Yes and no. Yes in the sense that everyone who was short the market overnight was -forced- to cover this morning. That said all the structural problems in the credit markets still exist -- just like they existed yesterday. I fully expect to see whip-saw type trading over the next few weeks as a bottom gets put in.

Keep in mind that in the short-term the markets are irrational.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

26

^ 24

Re: Silliness

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 04:42:19 PM EST

4.50 (interesting, interesting)

That said all the structural problems in the credit markets still exist -- just like they existed yesterday.

Not all of them. The lenders that had a "scared straight" moment over the amount of not-covered-by-Fannie Mae exposure are at least not writing more risky loans. As long as they don't go back to them, that's the major contributing cause solved. Also, the Fed's currency flooding and rate reduction will help a bit.

I'm right behind your whipsaw assessment, but the past few days likely turned a lemming march into a slow-moving train wreck. The mortgage companies and hedge funds which don't go under within a year probably won't at all (or at least, not because of this bubble). The mass of bad loans will get pushed through eventually. I figure another year of a buyers' housing market will bottom out the curve -- though there will probably be a few shocks on the way down to the bottom, and sellers test various levels of discounting/loss.

27

Don't Know

thefadd.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 06:53:36 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

If everyone has seen this but it's more informative than your average television show.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

2

The reports of Countrywide's demise are premature.

MayorBob.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 10:18:01 AM EST

none

But, perhaps not far off.  The company just righted itself, for the time being, by tapping into a credit line of (US)$11 billion provided by a consortium of 40 banks.  The problem is that this effort will probably be viewed as an act of desperation because, as one investment analyst put it, "typically these bank lines are there but not really meant to be used."  I guess "if you really need the credit, you'd be better off not using it" is some sort of partner to the old saw "the only time you can get credit is when you don't need it."

Of course, for those who missed it above, there are now forty regular banks who are holding Countrywide's hands as it approaches the abyss.  But, wetkarma is right.  After the dust settles, there will be bargains aplenty in the equity market.

 

Illegitimi non carborundum.

9

^ 2

Re: The reports of Countrywide's demise are premat

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:15:32 PM EST

none

How could they [Countrywide plus everybody involved even tangentially in this sub-primer mortgage affair] not see this coming? I mean, the mortgage industry is something even a simpleton should be able to make money off of if they do not get terribly greedy.

Even if Countrywide didn't write the bad loans to people with questionable credit, how come they didn't investigate the quality of the debtor's ability to pay before purchasing the debt from the original brokers?

Human stupidity and greed screws way too many companies.

14

^ 9

You got most of it in your last sentence.

MayorBob.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 02:45:06 PM EST

none

Human stupidity and greed combined to make what should have been otherwise prudent fiscal stewards buy into the notion that you could loan out at 125 percent of book value and that prices would continue to climb forever.  Meanwhile, the debtors would somehow figure out a way of converting to a more stable instrument than a loan with nice easy terms for three to five years and then a balloon that bursts at the end of it.

The other ingredient is volume.  These mortgages don't get sold one by one.  They get bundled in amongst an entire portfolios of mortgages.  The bank buying the bundle probably didn't even bother to ask much beyond what it would cost to buy the bundle because, after all, this golden goose would keep on laying.

I'm going to steer clear of schadenfreude on this one because it's really not clear who amongst us will end up feeling pain over this.  Certainly Countrywide and its investors and employees might end up feeling deep, hurting pain.  But what about the banks who have underwritten Countrywide for the nonce?  Is one of them yours or mine?  What about the debtors at those banks holding onto adjustable lines of credit or (gasp) mortgages (and maybe none of the subprime junk which sparked all of this)?

Illegitimi non carborundum.

3

Re: How Low Can You Go?

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 10:51:26 AM EST

none

WK and Bob make some good points.  Just out of curiosity and since I know next to nothing about the stock market, what is the worst case scenario on all of this?  How bad could it get?

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

10

^ 3

Re: How Low Can You Go?

wetkarma.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:18:17 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

how bad could it get?

Depends on your level of paranoia -- you could see a collapse of the international financial system for a few months as lack of liquidity removes any buyers from the market. This in turn prompts a domino effect as more and more people (and quant computers) rush for the exits.

Major Companies will start declaring bankruptcy, which in turn spikes unemployment, which lowers consumer spending, which impacts trade grinding the economy to if not a halt..some sort of great depression level miasma.

Then inflation kicks in...driving the cost of basic goods (food) upwards...crime rate starts to spike..dogs and cats living together..you get the idea.

Realistically, what will eventually happen is that a lot of people are going to go bankrupt, a lot of companies are going to go out of business, and many homeowners will wait a decade or more (I'm looking at you Nevada) before being able to breakeven on their mortgages.

There will be no V shaped recovery -- right now the best place to be as a long term investor is in the international markets as they will lead the recovery from the US contagion and have the best growth prospects anyway. Anyone who starts buying beaten down stocks in the US market now is either a fool or a very very rich man.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

12

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Re: How Low Can You Go?

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:20:06 PM EST

none

Jesus, the way you and some analysts on the internet are talking perhaps we should merge this thread with Alas, Babylon.

5

^ 3

Re: How Low Can You Go?

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:34:07 AM EST

none

If you had investments wouldn't it be dependent on the amount of time you were expecting to hold them? For example, if you were 25 and they were your retirement fund it would be not a big deal, but if you were 67 and wanted to retire in 6 months you might have a major problem.

Of course, that is the stock market in general. If you had a portfolio of all the mortgage companies in question who subsequently tanked because they had a ton of bad debt on their books then you would be in some deep kimchi no matter how long you planned to hold on for.

As far as general effects on the market and economy, I couldn't tell you.

4

Re: How Low Can You Go?

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 10:58:41 AM EST

none

I figured something like this would happen after I heard on the radio friday that the reserve was pumping in $36 Billion to the market to stabilize things and that a spokesperson was quoted as saying the Federal Reserve would inject as much money as necessary to prevent a massive crash.

15

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Re: How Low Can You Go?

tomc.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 02:49:00 PM EST

none

Indeed.  

But you can print money to finance a war for only so long before owners of other currencies catch on.

16

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Re: How Low Can You Go?

thefadd.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 02:58:44 PM EST

none

If they were long term smart, they'd call China's bluff and not worry if the commies dump some dollars on the market right now. Bite the bullet this month and let China know you're not scared of them. Right now, China can't afford to dump more than a scare tactic amount because of their decreased leverage over the lead paint and other recent manufacturing scandals and pending Olympics. I hate to see such great leverage go to waste.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

19

^ 15

Re: How Low Can You Go?

gerrymander.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 04:48:52 PM EST

none

But you can print money to finance a war

It's not to finance a war. Really. The Fed is printing money to avoid a dearth of capital when loans become harder to come by (like what's happening now). This is likely the best move to make, as it will serve as a replacement for cheap loans -- the ultimate reason behind this mess, and what can't continue if we want the real estate economy cleaned up. A wash of ready money now will increase inflation down the line a bit, but that can be fixed with interest rates.

21

^ 19

Re: How Low Can You Go?

tomc.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 08:22:56 PM EST

none

Well, yes, except a falling dollar would need ever increasing interest rates to make  it attractive.

It's just butt-ugly all 'round, if'n you ask me.

25

^ 21

Re: How Low Can You Go?

gerrymander.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 10:59:59 AM EST

none

falling dollar would need ever increasing interest rates to make  it attractive.

Not quite. A falling dollar might require higher interest rates to make government bonds look more attractive. But, emphasis on "might," too -- safe money is better than no money. The US has never defaulted on loans, nor does it appear likely to.

On the flip side, a falling dollar makes US-produced goods and services more attractive without any other assistance. With a strong enough economy, enough money moves into the government to balance accounts -- and the country was steadily moving toward a balanced budget prior to the recent economic jostling.

Now, there's no question the real estate market will have an effect, but the housing market has been slowing for almost 18 months already. I'm more optimistic than wetkarma about the potential for a post-shock recovery. because the country has already successfully dealt with hits to other sectors in prior years, and because the Fed is not staffed by idiots. While it may not be the "soft landing" financial analysts had been hoping for, it might be close enough.

28

^ 25

Re: How Low Can You Go?

tomc.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:11:06 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

a falling dollar makes US-produced goods and services more attractive without any other assistance

Well, yeah, except for the minor detail that we don't manufacture anything here anymore!

Intervention in the economy through interest rate adjustments or tweaking the money supply has always been a mug's game.  In the end it always pays to look at the largest issues and how they affect the economy.

Large Issue #1: Americans spend more than they make. Trying to incite more consumer spending, as the fed suggested we should do, may not be the solution there.

Large Issue #2: We're spending billions every month on a war that by definition will never end.  Regardless of whether you think this war is justified or not, this kind of spending is antithetical to any real economic growth.

Bottom line is that the $US is not an attractive investment.  And as long as that fact remains, it'll be a while before we see the bottom of this well.

30

^ 28

Re: How Low Can You Go?

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 09:52:52 PM EST

none

except for the minor detail that we don't manufacture anything here anymore
Where did you get that idea? The US manufactures more today than ever before.

31

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Re: How Low Can You Go?

tomc.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:54:35 PM EST

none

That was hyperbole, zyx.  

A reference to the continuing outsourcing of manufacturing and the ever-decreasing number of jobs in that sector.  Fewer and fewer Americans benefit from indigenous manufacturing, and the few who benefit tend to be...you guessed it, the most wealthy.

In 1945, approximately 35 million Americans worked in manufacturing.  Today it's about 30 million - a loss of 5...million...jobs.  And the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts that jobs in manufacturing will continue to decrease through 2014 as companies turn to increased automation...and move factories to countries with lower labor costs.

32

^ 31

Re: How Low Can You Go?

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:30:09 AM EST

none

Fewer and fewer Americans benefit from indigenous manufacturing...
That's only correct if you think that the only people who benefit from manufacturing are the people who are directly doing the manufacturing, and that's an extremely shortsighted view.

...and the few who benefit tend to be...you guessed it, the most wealthy
That's absurd. The average* American today is far better off than he was when manufacturing employment was at its peak.

We, as Americans, should be grateful that so few Americans can be employed in manufacturing yet produce so much. The manufacturing of old, when there were so many more jobs in manufacturing, was labor-intensive (and I mean the term here not in the macroeconomic sense, but in the sense that factory work was debilitating, exhaustive, dangerous, and dirty) and the workers had little to offer but themselves as inefficient, expendable machines made of meat. Being expendable, those workers weren't worth very much, and therefore weren't paid very much. Contrast that with the situation today when American manufacturing workers are far and away the most efficient in the world, add tremendous value to their work because they are ever increasingly applying knowledge and problem-solving to their tasks rather than mere repetitive physical labor, and are, accordingly, very well paid.

Who benefits from the tremendous efficiency of the US manufacturing sector? We all do, not only the rich. We benefit for a host of reasons, such as the fact that food, for example, is far cheaper today than it was when it took so much more effort to produce. We all benefit because the service economy is a far more pleasant place in which to be employed - jobs that do things for other people are, on the whole, far better paid than jobs that make things for other people.

In 1945, approximately 35 million Americans worked in manufacturing.  Today it's about 30 million - a loss of 5...million...jobs
It's a loss of 5 million debilitating, exhaustive, dangerous, dirty jobs that no one misses. (Though the figures you mentioned, 35 million and 30 million, are not only wrong, they are wildly wrong.) And those losses were not only a good thing from a human welfare standpoint, but were absolutely necessary for the US to become the global economic powerhouse that it is today.

The fact of the matter is that, as I mentioned above, the US economy manufactures far more today than it did in 1945. It does that with far fewer workers than it needed previously. Suppose that US manufacturing employment were as large today, as a fraction of the total workforce, as it was in 1945. Suppose further that those workers were as efficient as workers are today. In order for those two things to be true, manufacturing output would be larger than the entire economy. Since that would be impossible (there has always been a large service sector in the modern US economy, you know) the only way for manufacturing employment to be that high today would be for the efficiency of individual workers to be far lower, and that means that their value and pay would be correspondingly lower.

...the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts that jobs in manufacturing will continue to decrease through 2014 as companies turn to increased automation...and move factories to countries with lower labor costs
Good, good! That's excellent news. The jobs that will be moved will necessarily be the ones that cannot profitably be done with American workers. The remaining domestic manufacturing production will be the best, highest-paying, most knowledge-intensive manufacturing that the US has.



* Don't read anything into my use of the term "average" and think it was misapplied or used in the strict statistical sense of the "mean." All you have to do is look at the median income when manufacturing employment was at its apex (whether in absolute numbers or as a percentage of the total workforce) and compare it to the median income today to see that increased manufacturing employment is not a desirable goal.

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Re: How Low Can You Go?

tomc.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 11:39:43 AM EST

none

The average* American today is far better off than he was when manufacturing employment was at its peak.

The average wealthy person, you mean.

American manufacturing workers are...very well paid.

Yet still losing their benefits, which marginally higher wages cannot compensate for.

The jobs that will be moved will necessarily be the ones that cannot profitably be done with American workers.

They always could be done profitably, just not AS profitably.  

At a certain point, manufacturers have to decide what is more important: a few cents more profit every quarter, or a healthy and productive lower class.

34

^ 33

Re: How Low Can You Go?

zyxwvutsr.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:17:42 PM EST

none

Again it seems you are wrong on all counts.

Some facts:

  • Median household income is significantly higher today than when manufacturing employment was at its peak. That means everyone is doing better, not only the wealthy.
  • Average total compensation is up, even for manufacturing workers who are "losing their benefits."
  • There is a limit to how long a certain type of firm can remain profitable while still keeping their production in the US. There is no way to avoid the fact that, for example, the Chinese are more economically efficient at producing certain goods.< When a firm becomes unprofitable, or only marginally profitable, it should go out of business.

I have no idea what you mean by "a healthy and productive lower class." What do you mean by "lower class"? Are they healthy and productive now? Do you have any reason to believe that they will not continue to be as healthy or productive in the future?

6

Re: How Low Can You Go?

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:45:02 AM EST

none

At the end of the day - (3 hrs-16 minutes from now), where will the market be?

I say somewhere around 12,400

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

7

^ 6

Observations from the Man on the Street...

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 11:51:32 AM EST

5.00 (funny)

Wait! Since CNN is saying the losses have exceeded 1.9%, that means gas and fuel is going to drop, too. Right.... right????

I can has 3rd SUV, plz?!

8

^ 7

Re: Observations from the Man on the Street...

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:04:25 PM EST

none

OMFG, this is actually true!

"U.S. light crude oil for September delivery fell $2.63 to $70.70 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange."

America, the only place where a stock market crash caused by bad credit would lead to massive SUV purchases.

13

^ 6

Just pure conjecture.

thefadd.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 01:00:27 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Maybe not today but I gotta think the Dow bottoms out somewhere past the 11,000 mark. From what I've seen these guys are right in that it looks similar to 1987 as opposed to other crashes.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

11

Re: How Low Can You Go?

pO157.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 12:18:19 PM EST

none

If Countrywide does eventually go under, could you buy your home's own mortgage for pennies on the dollar at the asset auction? That would be hot.

Too bad I went credit union.

17

After a long hard day

Lou.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 03:02:09 PM EST

none

Well, that was quite a ride...plunging down something like 300 points, the Dow is now resting at almost 8 points higher than this morning.  I wonder what's on the drink menu for traders tonight (and not celebratory drinks, either).

I can't argue with your logic...but I can recommend a good therapist

18

^ 17

Re: After a long hard day

thefadd.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 03:11:15 PM EST

none

Well, that was quite a ride...plunging down something like 300 points, the Dow is now resting at almost 8 points higher than this morning.

What a shame. I hope against hope that we'll make it into the Obama Presidency with the economy no worse but one day this fall it almost certainly won't be able to rebound.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

20

Thank You, Internet

3fingerspointback.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 at 06:32:20 PM EST

none

The unsubstantiated rumors of a takeover bid kept my employer's stock from crashing with the rest of the market, at least as long as it took for me to to liquidate about half of my holdings (Keeping the other half because hey, it might be true).  Now to wait for a good deal, or to read up on the international markets, I guess.

(is 3fingerspointback)

23

Fed to the rescue!

wetkarma.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 at 08:49:35 AM EST

none

Superman style -- Bernanke's fed bailts out the market with a 25 basis pt cut ..investors watch with glee as short positions get RAPED at market open.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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