OK, you make a good argument that SOMETHING is out there - but what is it?  If human beings can really generate tremendously stronger magnetic fields than had previously been thought possible, it would certainly be worthwhile to investigate the mechanism by which they do it, as well as the possible consequences or uses of such fields.  I would not leap to the conclusion that this is some kind of spiritual or magical phenomenon.  But it would at least hypothetically give some comprehensible basis for something like touch healing.

It is certainly the experience of scientific research, over the past several centuries, that there are always new things to be discovered.  So in that sense, there is certainly something out there.  But it is also the experience of all scientific research that whatever we discover will turn out to fit within our fundamental understanding of a universe that operates on the basis of mathematically describable physical laws rather than being some kind of fantasy molded by human thought or by the various supernatural beings in which people like to believe.

If human beings can really generate tremendously stronger magnetic fields than had previously been thought possible, it would certainly be worthwhile to investigate the mechanism by which they do it, as well as the possible consequences or uses of such fields.

Oh, sure. This all sounds good, but pretty soon the government has started the Sentinel program to corral the people with magnetic powers, then those people start the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and everything goes to hell.

It's true, the whole idea of people who can generate their own powerful magnetic fields is strangely reminiscent of the X-Men character Magneto.

X-Men?  Come on - this is totally Star Trek.  Everybody knows that if you expose nanites to an accelerated baryonic chroniton gradient field, the nanites incorporate the resulting magnetic monopoles into their structure.  When such nanites infect humans it can often result in strange abilities to control and manipulate magnetic fields.  The resulting one episode character, a former nobody, then develops a god complex, and all of the usually plot devices are brought to bear to bring about their downfall and eventual return to chagrined normalcy.

X-Men?  Come on - this is totally Star Trek.

Magneto's 1st Appearance = Sept. 1963

Star Trek's 1st episode = Sept. 1966

And I'm sure the episode you're referring was probably not the 1st episode.

/nerd

The japan study doesn't seem to be very trustworthy.. I found this from another source: "A Japanese team [2] measured magnetic fields from the palms of 37 subjects who supposedly could emit External Qi. In three subjects only, they detected magnetic fields of 2-4mGauss in the frequency range of 4-10 Hz."

The SQUID research seems promising though, the only objection I've found to it is that the guy who published the scientific paper is an owner of the magazine it was published in...

I agree with your last paragraph.

I find it interesting that there is such a scientifically plausible explanation, which you have considerately quoted for us, of how a pulsed electromagnetic field could be helping bones to heal.  Nothing about this suggests that any kind of mystical phenomenon is involved.  We have known for a long time that the nervous system functions by means of electro-chemical signals which produce small but measurable magnetic fields, so there is nothing inherently strange about the fact that magnetism can have an effect on the human body.  Of course, it has to be a particular KIND of magnetism.  Many people have developed strange ideas about the effect of magnetism on the human body, such as the idea that a magnetic bracelet could treat arthritis.

Could you one or more controlled, double blinded clinical trial that substantiates the effects of pulsed electromagnetic field theory?  I could not find such in your link.

The following sounds extremely fishy - "Various electrical frequencies are being tested to determine the types of tissue they affect. Sisken and Walker found that 2 Hz is associated with nerve regeneration, 7 Hz with bone growth, 10 Hz with ligament healing, 15, 20, and 72 Hz with stimulation of capillary formation, and 25 and 50 Hz with synergistic effects with nerve growth factor. "  This sounds too much like wishful fantasy thinking on the part of the researcher - of course you can just tune the frequency to the tissue type - why not?  Works on Star Trek.

That's just blindly pushing aside evidence - it is just as bad as blindly believing in faith healing!

They  looked into nearly 200 studies and found 65% of them showed positive results when it comes to distant healing.  Taking out the studies that were questionable and he sees results going up to 75%.  Maybe he is biased or just screwed up his results, or maybe the studies themselves were biased, but the least a scientific minded person should do is look into it... get the book from the library and study his results....

That's just blindly pushing aside evidence - it is just as bad as blindly believing in faith healing!

It is far more reasonable to push aside the evidence you mentioned since faith healing has no scientific theory to back it up. You are suggesting that people should believe in something where an objective observer would say, at best, 'there is weak and contradictory evidence that there is something going on here, but despite the almost miraculous progress that medical and biological science has made over the past century there is no theory that even begins to account for these effects.'

One observer has looked at one of the most touted meta-analyses and said,

A meta-analysis is not always the best method for coming to an overall conclusion about an area of research. There are aspects to the pattern of results that are important to consider, and are white-washed in a meta-analysis. For example, what is the trend between study quality and size of the effect? If we see a real tendency for the better studies to have a smaller effect (which we do, in my opinion, in the intercessory prayer literature), that strongly suggests that the effect is not real. By combining these studies, however, these differences are erased. In effect, the good data is diluted in bad data.

We can further ask if the kinds of results are in agreement and make sense. There have been several studies of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients, for example. The first few looked at multiple outcomes, such as length of stay in the cardiac critical care unit, complications, and overall health rating -  with some but not others showing a benefit for prayer. However, the outcomes that were better on one study were different than those on another study. So taken as a whole, the studies contradict and somewhat neutralize each other. A third, larger, better designed, more definitive trial (the STEP trial) was done.  This study was solidly negative. This is a good example of how clinical literature evolves - newer studies build on the lessons of older studies while trying to resolve enduring conflicts. Again, taken as a whole this progression of research shows no effect for intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass. It is completely inappropriate to combine the data in a meta-analysis and erase a more meaningful analysis that comes from seeing how the research evolves

...the least a scientific minded person should do is look into it...

The least a scientific minded person should do is 1) to demand that there is the possibility of a theoretical grounding for empirical data, and, 2) realize that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. No type of "distance healing" has satisfied either of these criteria, let alone satisfied both.

miraculous progress that medical and biological science has made over the past century

Personally my sympathy for the the concepts Shane is putting stem less from any belief in them and much more so in a lack of faith in the "miraculous progress" those who are so keen on scientific provability lie down for. The extension of human life expectancy could just as easily be correlated with the distribution networks that have allowed for vastly more increased access to clean water and the building blocks of a balanced diet as to a laundry list of vaccines and medications.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

That's why I didn't say only "medical science."

It is far more reasonable to push aside the evidence that the world is round since there is no scientific theory to back that up.

Sure... you could even hang people for believing that the world is round, but it doesn't change the fact that they were right.  

Sometimes it just takes a while for new ideas to break through the establishment...  skepticism is justified though, because often the new ideas are just frauds or misunderstandings.  Nevertheless, sometimes they are correct.

There is some evidence that shows magnetic fields can have healing effects on people.  There is also evidence that people can generate magnetic fields in various ways. Therefore it is reasonable to theorize that someone can create a medical field and cause healing to start happening.

"It is far more reasonable to push aside the evidence that the world is round since there is no scientific theory to back that up."

The proponents of the "round earth hypothesis" had a slew of meticulously gathered observations on their side, that could only be explained by the fact that the earth was in fact round.  Further, they had observations that could not be explained by the flat earth theory.  A round earth, and for that matter, the geocentric theory of the solar system, weren't ever all that scientifically controversial.  The people who wanted to hang the proponents of these theories were religious leaders, not their scientific peers.

What exactly is the "spooky healing at a distance hypothesis"?  What observations are explained only by this hypothesis and no other?  What are the proposed mechanisms for the observed effects (if any)?  Magnetic fields?  Great.  Then studying this effect should be pretty straightforward.  Let's examine some practitioners of the art with sensitive magnetic equipment and see if they can in fact generate and manipulate magnetic fields in unique ways.  Let's then replicate those fields and see if there are any effects in cell cultures, and then perhaps animals.  If the results are promising, then we should be able to develop models of how the magnetic fields influence the health of people and determine the exact mechanisms and microbiological pathways.

I found proof that magnetic fields can have healing effects.  Still no understanding of how it works, but it does work:  Pulsating electromagnetic therapy has been in use for the past 40 years. A well-recognized and standard use is to enhance the healing of nonunion fractures. It also has been claimed that this therapy is effective in treating osteoarthritis, migraine headaches, multiple sclerosis, and sleep disorders.2 Some animal and cell culture studies have been conducted to elucidate the basic mechanism of the pulsating electromagnetic therapy effect, such as cell proliferation and cell-surface binding for growth factors. However, detailed data on the mechanisms of action are still lacking.

The same website states that there is impressive anecdotal evidence for "therapeutic touch, healing touch, Reiki, Johrei, vortex healing, and polarity therapy"

It is far more reasonable to push aside the evidence that the world is round since there is no scientific theory to back that up

Just because you've never heard of Copernicus doesn't mean the round-earth evidence has no theory to back it up.

There is some evidence that shows magnetic fields can have healing effects on people.  There is also evidence that people can generate magnetic fields in various ways. Therefore it is reasonable to theorize that someone can create a medical field and cause healing to start happening

No, it may be reasonable to hypothesize that biomagnetism could have an effect on healing, but the evidence you've dredged up thus far doesn't even come close to rising to the status of a theory.

thefadd: How about turning the tables a bit...what about something accepted by the medical establishment but with little real demonstrated proof of existence--and tangentially similar to Shane's point: electroshock therapy.

zyxwvutsr: What about it?

thefadd: It's something accepted by the mainstream medical community that has as little basis in provability as the points Shane brought up.

zyxwvutsr: It's not accepted by 'medical science.'

thefadd: Yes it is. It's right there in that link.

zyxwvutsr: I don't care about that link.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

It's true, I don't care about that link. This discussion is about healing-at-a-distance and other types of healing that use no substances or devices.

I haven't experienced healing at a distance but I have experienced diagnosis at a distance. I'll admit I was rather skeptical all around and it wasn't something I asked for or would have. My girlfriend went to the doctor and I hadn't been in awhile. He said he could check up on me through her since we're physically intimate. He told her to think about me and then he ran the usual electro magnetic tests that he would have run on me. He gave her some various things for me to take and it was all rather unprovable except for the fact that he knew from testing me through her that I'd been doing a liver cleanse. It wasn't something he'd proscribed to me and it wasn't something she even knew I was doing because we don't live together. But he remarked to her that my liver was markedly improved and I must have been doing the cleanse, which I had been for two weeks just then. I'm hardly saying I believe it but for the people who know what to do and how to do it, it just might not be that far afield.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

By "doctor" I assume you mean "fortune teller."

Ok, then I propose a new study.  Let's study the effects of joshv thinking about purple elephants on cancer patient outcome.  We will set up two five year periods, one where I think about purple elephants diligently, for at least an hour each day, and the other where I don't.  I will determine which period is which by flipping a coin.  I will not reveal my schedule, and in the period where I am not supposed to think about purple elephants, I will quietly meditate instead, so that no outside observer will be determine which period is which.  During this 10 year period, researchers will track and catalog cancer outcomes in great detail.

After the study is done, 10 years, and many millions of dollar later, I can reveal my schedule and we will see if my thinking about purple elephants has any bearing on cancer outcome.  If not, we can then move on the pink, and yellow elephants, or perhaps change the animal to something more cancer protective - bunnies maybe.

Praying by someone who is ill, or praying for someone who is ill with their knowledge, certainly has psychological effects one way or the other.  Faith is a powerful thing, I do not begrudge anyone their particular beliefs, and it is clear that the mental condition of a patient has a lot to do with outcome.  Your brain controls your body, conciously or not.

However, I think it behooves us to spend our effort studying things with more likely utility than "distant prayer".  Or, maybe we could declassify what is doubtless millions of dollars in research by the military on prayer-based weaponry.  

So yes, I plead (at least partly) guilty to your suggestion.  You can't study everything.    When no mechanism for effect has been determined, correlations (and contradictory ones, in this case!) are likely due to badly designed experiments, or experiments in which a population bias has been unknowingly introduced.  

I also think experiments involving religion are subject to biases by the beliefs (either way) of the scientist conducting them; behold the discussion on page 2 of the Alternet article.  The article, I think, tends to support my original assertion about use and misuse of statistics.

Anyway, thanks for posting this, whether we agree or not.  Interesting stuff.