Legal

Halt! Ihre Papiere bitte!

pO157.

Posted to Legal on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 09:09:45 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Under new rules recently released, Americans born before 1964 will be exempt from applying for the upcoming "R.E.A.L. ID" by the time the national ID card standards are rolled out at the new target date in 2011.

The Department of Homeland Security pushed the supposedly secure identification standards in response to 9/11. Under the plan, applicants will need to present themselves in person to a DMV office, have their photograph taken, their immigration/citizenship status verified and information shared with other agencies to verify their claims that they are who they say they are.

In written responses to the act, the ACLU argued the "first-ever national identity card system," which "would irreparably damage the fabric of American life." Critics are also concerned about a backlog in paperwork at the DMV, massive costs shifted to the states in the form of an unfunded mandate, identity theft problems and plans to keep scans of applicants supporting paperwork (such as birth certificates and social security cards) in unencrypted form.

The ID program is defended by the Homeland Security department who notes that one of the 9/11 hijackers had four forms of ID from three states. They also note that it will help eliminate voter fraud and reduce fraudulent Medicaid and government services claims.

Although there have been 17 states to pass resolutions resisting the new law, it will likely occur against any objections as those states who do not issue compliant licenses will have their residents banned from aircraft and federal buildings unless they have a passport.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, Jack Bauer, 24, Day of the California Presidential Primary, Unfunded Mandates, terrorism, civil liberties, feel good (all tags)

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14

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

JimmyHavok.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 02:45:33 AM EST

5.00 (interesting, astute, astute)

The ACLU has a web site devoted to Real ID: Real Nightmare.

I for one wonder what the Bush administration thinks Real ID will do to stop terrorism.  On the other hand, I can see how it could be easily used to track normal citizens going about their legal business, or, like the no-fly list, prevent dissidents from going about their Constitutionally-protected business.

18

Here's my objection: Useless

pO157.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 11:08:29 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

If the administration wants to act like this will somehow help our transportation security they need to pick a better story. When I am crammed into a plane, eating salty peanuts and reading the 40 copies of Vibe somebody from the last flight left behind I really do not care who I am sitting next to, or who is on the plane. Osama Bin Laden could be sitting next to me, and I'd be fine with that as long as he was properly screened and checked. Regrettably, this does not happen as the TSA has a horrible record of actually completing its mission.

So, I will pose this question: What purpose does a new national ID system have if the government can't even get it together enough to properly screen passengers in the first place for weapons?

Come on.

9

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

harzerkatze.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 03:53:54 AM EST

4.00 (informative)

Can someone explain the headline to me? Because that makes no sense in german.

11

^ 9

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

port1080.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:18:22 AM EST

3.00 (interesting)

I'll fess up to the title - it was my attempt to translate pO157's original title ("Papers Please, Citizen") into German.  My understanding is that it means "Stop! Your Papers Please!" - but I'm also not a native German speaker, so I may have gotten it wrong.  I came up with the translation through babelfish and a cursory google search that indicated to me that other people had used that phrasing as well.  If it's wrong I'd be glad to stand corrected.

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^ 11

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

pO157.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 10:56:36 AM EST

4.00 (funny)

I don't trust babelfish ever since college when I was trying to translate a message somebody had left in a foreign language. The website claimed the person was trying to tell everybody they had tapeworms. After that I lost all faith and credit in online translators.

Then again, perhaps she did have tapeworms and it was a cry for help. I don't know.

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^ 11

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

harzerkatze.

Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 04:12:14 AM EST

4.00 (informative)

Computer translation usually does not work. Just translate a sentence from english into another language with one and then translate it back.

Your german title makes no sense, directly translating it to english would spell either: "Stop! Your papers favor"
or if you write "Gefallen as "gefallen":
"Stop! Your papers appeal".

What you wanted to say would be:
"Papiere bitte, Bürger!" or nearer to your version "Halt! Ihre Papiere bitte!"

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^ 19

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

port1080.

Tue Jan 15, 2008 at 08:44:12 AM EST

none

Thanks - fixed.

2

Driver's licenses

profwhat.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 10:21:36 AM EST

3.00 (astute, illiterate)

So, in Maine, you don't need to prove you are a U.S. citizen to get a driver's license.  In fact, you don't even need to prove you are a resident of Maine to get a Maine driver's license.  They ask for a Social Security Number, but you can still get a license if you don't provide one.  Unlike other states, they don't do anything to confirm you actually live where you say you do.

This is stupid.  Inherent in the idea of a driver's license is the notion that the person who is carrying it is who the license says they are.  While the REAL ID stuff may be overkill in some respects, it is a good idea to require states to do something to make sure driver's licenses are accurate.

The ACLU, as usual, has turned the rhetoric level up to 10.  "Irreparably damage the fabric of American life?"  These ACLU people must lead very different American lives than I do.  We are talking about driver's licenses here;  you are not (thank God) entitled to one under law, and in my opinion far, far fewer people should have them than currently do.

As for the fears of a national ID card system, can someone explain the danger of that to me?  Why does that pose more of a risk than, say, a California-wide ID card system?

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drivers licenses, identity, and national id

wetkarma.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 04:06:29 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)


This is stupid.  Inherent in the idea of a driver's license is the notion that the person who is carrying it is who the license says they are.  While the REAL ID stuff may be overkill in some respects, it is a good idea to require states to do something to make sure driver's licenses are accurate.

Yes and no. Mostly no.

A drivers license, like a pilots license or a hunting license is authorization granted by the state to operate a motor vehicle. If your description of Maine's law is accurate, then it can be said that Maine is granting licenses to people based on their ability to drive.

Example: I go to Maine's DMV and apply for a license with the name Bob Karma. I pass my test, grab my new piece of lamine, hop in my porsche and press the accelerator for all its worth. While passing the local school zone, I get pulled over and an officer with large bosoms asks to see my license. She confirms the license is valid, and writes me a ticket then allows me to be on my way.  

As we see there is no inaccuracy in play. Even if I pay for said ticket with my checking account in the name of Joe Liberal, the validity of the license is not questioned.

Problems occur when a license is also used as an identification card - as most states do. Since identity requires authentication, most states identity cards are susceptible to fraud. This fraud is what REAL ID is attempting to address.

Now as a supporter of REAL ID, I understand the risks of a national id card all too well (it runs counter to libertarian principles). They are as follows:

1. A national id card requires a federal centralized database. Since the federal government has additional databases (IRS, criminal etc), the ID database will become the central hub profile capable of monitoring a citizen throughout his life. Every query/hit of the database can be recorded such that a bored DMV/police/fbi/hacker user can watch as I buy some beer at the Kwik-E-Mart (id check), go to the airport to take a plane to visit my mom, get accosted by a racist cop while I'm walking to her apartment, and log my visit to Washington Mutual where I am opening a secret savings account for my wife's anniversary present.

Bottomline: the first problem is that much like the SSN, a national id card will allow for citizen tracking similar to following someone's credit card purchases throughout the day. Anything that the government can conceivable think to add to the database, would be (in theory) available for review by all those who have access to the database.

  1. The government's motivation is not to safeguard your privacy. As a result, not only are compromise to the data kept on you likely to occur, but redress for that compromise (it being the government) is limited. If someone fakes your national id card, your challenge to rectify the problem will be similar to that of people who have had their identity stolen (i.e. days and months of work with no clear end in sight).

  2. A national id card makes it easier for an authoritarian government/corporation to restrict the liberty of its citizens. This is the classic get the undesirables to wear stars of david, pink triangles etc then round em up and ship em out problem. A national id card strips away collective/herd immunity.

  3. A national id card destroys western notions of privacy. The constitution of the USA guarantees that citizens will be secure from unreasonable searches, but in an environment where all profile data is linked, queries of that data will not be viewed (judicially) as unreasonable. Eg. I go back to the Kiwk-e-Mark and the clerk demands to see my id..along with my name, my ID has my address, blood type, contact # , height, whatever the government chooses to put on it. How much of that information does the clerk need and how much do they obtain as a 'bonus'? This is the equivalent of Best Buy asking for your telephone number to complete a purchase. Both the government and private corporations will be enabled to collect information at their discretion.

  4. A national id card is expensive. Managing and maintaining such a system will be an added significant cost - as fraud occurs, more and more tamper resistant measures will be added in an 'arms race' to preserve the reliability of a document which all identity systems will slowly switch to.

  5. A national id card will be no more functional/useful than current identity systems. As such any utility gained from a national id card would be primarily due to newly implementable restrictions on citizens freedoms.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

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Re: drivers licenses, identity, and national id

profwhat.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 07:44:43 AM EST

none

Example: I go to Maine's DMV and apply for a license with the name Bob Karma. I pass my test, grab my new piece of lamine, hop in my porsche and press the accelerator for all its worth. While passing the local school zone, I get pulled over and an officer with large bosoms asks to see my license. She confirms the license is valid, and writes me a ticket then allows me to be on my way.

If she cannot confirm that the driver's license card was issued to you, the person she finds behind the wheel, then the license card is useless as a way to identify people who are licensed to drive.  What's to stop you from having your cousin (who looks like you) get a license card and hand it over to you?  That's why I say that inherent in the idea of a driver's license is the notion that the person who is carrying it is who the license says they are.

Your list of concerns over REAL ID seems fairly complete, but as i read it I have to think that the angst over this proposal is just redirected displeasure with government (and law enforcement) in general, because it doesn't seem like anything new is occurring here.

A national database filled with shared information that allows tracking people over time?  The National Crime Information Center is such a beast, and it has been around since 1967.

A national centralized database filled with juicy information that could be a gold mine for an identity thief?  Yeah, the Social Security Administration has one of those.  So does the IRS.

Allowing a future hypothetical fascist government to round up citizens?  To use this data, they'd have to go by family names, because the REAL ID requirements don't include race or skin color or religion or sexual orientation.  They already have databases of family names associated with addresses--tons of 'em.

Killing 4th amendment protections?  This was never a correct argument to begin with; the 4th amendment protects private spaces, not information you share with others.

So many of the cries about lost privacy really seem to be cries about privacy that we lost fifty years ago.  This proposal won't take away more privacy; it will just make government work more effectively.

15

^ 12

Re: drivers licenses, identity, and national id

wetkarma.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 05:42:19 AM EST

5.00 (informative)


What's to stop you from having your cousin (who looks like you) get a license card and hand it over to you?  That's why I say that inherent in the idea of a driver's license is the notion that the person who is carrying it is who the license says they are.

you mean other than fraud laws and the threat of incarceration? Nothing I suppose.
The question might be why is it critical to confirm with 99.99999% probability that the license card whose picture 'looks like you'  is actually your own?

Still this discussion is somewhat timely since with recent events I get to not only warn against the slippery slope of nationalized id, but point to its egregious manifestation.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

16

^ 15

Re: drivers licenses, identity, and national id

zyxwvutsr.

Mon Jan 14, 2008 at 07:43:12 AM EST

4.00 (funny)

The question might be why is it critical to confirm with 99.99999% probability that the license card whose picture 'looks like you'  is actually your own?

Terrorists.

Discussion over.

3

^ 2

all you're info. right there. for everyone to see.

1fastdog.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 12:16:19 PM EST

none

As for the fears of a national ID card system, can someone explain the danger of that to me?

Because it's an unfunded mandate that's currently opposed by at least 17 states with the potentially troublesome aspect of carrying around all of your private info, including social security numbers and birth certificates all available to whichever low level, underpaid security operator who will be manning the helm.

Already, 17 states have said they would either refuse to issue the new licenses or have asked Congress to repeal a 2005 law that required states to collect and store additional data on driver's license applicants, such as birth certificates, Social Security numbers and home addresses.

Under Real ID, all new licenses would be machine-readable and contain personal information that could be scanned by governments and potentially by corporations.

Considering that the gov't can't even set up/contract out a website to allow travelers to post personal info securely for something as important as people challenging their presence on the "no fly list", I see little reason to have confidence in their ability to develop this into anything more than the clusterfuck of a bad idea that it already is.

A new Bush administration plan to create national standards for driver's licenses drew heavy criticism yesterday from civil liberties groups, some Republican and Democratic lawmakers, governors, and the travel industry.

The critics said the new licenses anticipated under the plan, which is aimed at screening out potential terrorists and uncovering illegal immigrants, could still be forged. They also complained that the program, known as Real ID, would be costly for states to implement, potentially restrict summer travel, and allow private companies access to the personal data of most U.S. citizens.

While I'm not normally one of those paranoid conspiracy types about govt, the plan for national IDs combined with the plans to put people under the biometric microscope when out and about in public is troubling to me. The chances of all this info being  combined, being wrong, being hacked, being sold to corporate interests, and otherwise being more damaging to the public that all these machinations are supposed to protect, seem far greater than whatever imaginary threats the backers of these things are currently fantasizing about...

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

5

^ 3

Re: all you're info. right there. for everyone to

profwhat.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:21:38 PM EST

none

You are smart, so I know that your worry can't be having your "social security numbers and birth certificates" being available to the government--after all, the government already knows your social security number and birth certificate, because they gave that stuff to you.  Surely the worry can't be that the government is making it easier to correlate and organize information it already has?

You seem worried that the government will manage the REAL ID system incompetently; I assume that's what your dig at "low level, underpaid security operator[s]" was about.  So who is "manning the helm" at your state's DMV -- low level, highly-paid security operators?

7

^ 5

Re: all you're info. right there. for everyone to

1fastdog.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 05:16:45 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

the government already knows your social security number and birth certificate, because they gave that stuff to you.

That's just fallacious bullshit. I currently carry no form of govt mandated ID that contains all of my private data. The clerk at the dmv has no idea what my social security number is 'cuz it ain't on my license, nor does he know where I was born, again, 'cuz it ain't on my license.

Surely the worry can't be that the government is making it easier to correlate and organize information it already has?

My worries lie mainly with the fact that we don't need all that info on one card, nor do we need that data available to any Tom, CheeseDick, or Harry whom are working for some huge megacorp - which will undoubtedly be granted some sort of Blackwater-type immunity from public scrutiny - having access to my sensitive info. The chance for personal identity theft under this unfunded mandate, remains stratospherically high. From the link in my first post which you either ignored or glossed over:

...Under Real ID, all new licenses would be machine-readable and contain personal information that could be scanned by governments and potentially by corporations.
...and allow private companies access to the personal data of most U.S. citizens.

Again, I don't want my sensitive info being bandied hither and yon by corporate layabouts with no accountability, whom are too busy sucking off the govt tit like the no-bid contract, welfare queens they are or most likely will be, to be trusted with anything more sensitive than mom's secret margarita recipe.

So who is "manning the helm" at your state's DMV -- low level, highly-paid security operators?

Bored folks who currently don't have access to anything except my drivers license number and home address.
At the end of the day, Real ID can't guarantee success and creates more problems than it was supposed to solve.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

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^ 7

Re: all you're info. right there. for everyone to

profwhat.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 12:14:07 AM EST

none

I currently carry no form of govt mandated ID that contains all of my private data.

Nor will you:

To meet the needs of the DMVs and law enforcement, § 37.19 of the final rule specifies that the MRZ contain the following data elements: expiration date; holder's full legal name, except as permitted under § 37.11(a)(2); transaction date; date of birth; gender; address as listed on the card pursuant to § 37.17(f); unique driver's license or identification card number; card design revision date; inventory control number of the physical document; and State or territory of issuance.
(link) (PDF)  Note: No SSN, no passport number, no JPEG of your birth certificate.  My driver's license, today, contains all this information already.  The only change is that this goes on a bar code.  What is your concern?

The clerk at the dmv has no idea what my social security number is 'cuz it ain't on my license, nor does he know where I was born, again, 'cuz it ain't on my license.

What is your opinion of the fine employees of the Social Security Administration?

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^ 8

Re: all you're info. right there. for everyone to

1fastdog.

Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 10:01:39 AM EST

none

 Note: No SSN, no passport number, no JPEG of your birth certificate.  My driver's license, today, contains all this information already.  The only change is that this goes on a bar code.  What is your concern?

After looking around the govt databases, it seems that you are correct. If they're not going to be putting all that other info on the card, then my concern factor drops considerably.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

4

^ 2

Re: Driver's licenses

zyxwvutsr.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 02:20:03 PM EST

none

Inherent in the idea of a driver's license is the notion that the person who is carrying it is who the license says they are
That article doesn't say you don't need to establish your identity to get a license in Maine, it only says you need not prove residence. I am who I am no matter where I live.

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^ 2

Re: Driver's licenses

Lou.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 04:13:25 PM EST

none

That must be new...back in the late 80s when I got my Maine license, I had to produce (and surrender) my Florida license and show a proof of residence (I distinctly remember bringing my power bill to the DMV.)

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

1

Re: Halt! Ihre Papiere Gefallen!

novy.

Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 09:49:49 AM EST

none

Implementation of Real ID law has been postponed by five years until 2017. But starting in May, any state that still resists implementation will be punished by new executive edict.

17 states have passed laws resisting implementation or calling for law's repeal. Federal government doesn't brook opposition from mere states any more than from citizens, so state driver's licenses from those 17 states will not longer be considered acceptable to board airplanes or enter federal buildings. "'Come May 2008, [their] citizens . . . will feel the consequences' of the states' resistance, Homeland Security Department spokesman Russ Knocke said Friday. To board a plane or enter a federal building, those residents will have to use a passport or other form of accepted identification, he said."

Proof yet again, if any were still needed, that "conservatives" don't really believe in states' rights so long as they control federal government. Their squeals about such matters only arise when liberals control federal government and they want to resist from their remaining centres of power.

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