Legal

YOU BOYS LIKE MEX-E-CO!?

pO157.

Posted to Legal on Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 09:51:18 AM EST (promoted by 1fastdog). RSS.

As the MPs (PDF), the FBI, and various talking heads chase the accused murderer of Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach, a new angle in the case may block the thirst for blood. The suspect is believed to have fled the country to Mexico, a nation which is among a growing list that refuse to extradite suspects back to face the death penalty.

Mexico is among a growing list of nations that will refuse to be complicit in the execution of an accused criminal that reaches their borders, even if a non-citizen. Canada, Italy, most European countries, and the overwhelming majority of countries around the world refuse to extradite anybody to countries with the death penalty unless assurances are given that execution is waived. Some countries refuse to extradite their own, no matter what.

Many argue that the United States' refusal to ban capital punishment hurts it, both in humanitarian standing (putting it in league with China, Sudan and Rwanda until that troubled nation banned executions) and in more tangible conflicts like the war on terror. Spain has refused to extradite 9/11 related suspects for fear they would be executed. Critics also point to a  2005 case in which Germany released a convicted terrorist because the United States was unwilling to drop the death penalty in its extradition request. That man, Mohammed Ali Hamadi believed to be responsible for the torture and murder of a US Navy sailor, is now safe from US extradition, having moved to Lebanon.

Side Note: Like any rule there is always an exception. Fleeing to a country that refuses to return death penalty eligible criminals does not protect the suspect if he voluntarily returns as one serial killer found out in 2006. Conversely, if extradition requests get shot down, kidnapping may be the way to go for enterprising prosecutors.

Tags: written by pO157, edited by 1fastdog, extradition, death penalty, Mexico, US, legal, terrorism, Super Troopers, Farva, Litre o' Cola (all tags)

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1

Mixed feelings...

port1080.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:13:38 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

I do not oppose the death penalty on principle. I feel the state should, and indeed needs to have the right to sanction the killing of people - and really, everyone does - nobody would suggest that a war of self-defense is illegal, but from a moral standpoint there's not all that much difference between executions and war. Rather, I oppose the death penalty on practical terms - I think too many people are innocently convicted of crimes, and that the penalty is unequally applied (although, I think this is more of an issue of sex and class - or the ability to afford a good lawyer - than of race). Given these flaws, I'd like to see our use of the death penalty severely restricted (in my ideal world, it would be something like a three strikes law - you can only be sentenced to death if you've been convicted of at least three murders - that should take a lot of the doubt issue away, and also keep an "ultimate penalty" on the books so that people already convicted to life in prison can't murder prison guards at will), but not abolished.

In any event, I don't think it's wise to change our laws based just on world opinion. State sovereignty is still an important concept, and doing what's right for your population isn't always a matter of following the herd. World-wide opinion can still influence the US - we are a democracy, after all, and if enough people are embarrassed by the way the rest of the world looks at our death penalty laws, then they can vote people into office who will overturn said laws. That's how representative government works. We don't just go overturning rules because the rest of the world thinks we should - we obey the will of the populace (which, right now, more or less favors the death penalty, although increasingly less so). I'd much rather see a gradual, state by state abolishment of the death penalty than some sort of Prohibition-like or Roe v. Wade deus ex machina change in the law. After all, we all saw how those two worked out.

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and justice for all

1fastdog.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 10:59:24 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I think too many people are innocently convicted of crimes, and that the penalty is unequally applied (although, I think this is more of an issue of sex and class - or the ability to afford a good lawyer - than of race). Given these flaws, I'd like to see our use of the death penalty severely restricted

True enough. I've got no moral qualms about states or nations using the death penalty, but, jeez, when we can't even stop innocent folks from receiving jail time, let alone a death penalty sentence, there needs to an ironclad and transparent review process that ensures that the right fucking person is indeed slated for imminent demise. The search for justice should be free of the taint of impropriety on all sides. Speaking of taint - caught this on the news yesterday:

Tim Masters was released from prison today after nearly ten years, following his conviction for murdering Peggy Hettrick in Fort Collins in 1987. An independent prosecutor reviewing the case filed a motion for the conviction to be vacated after new DNA testing pointed toward another man.

But in the Hettrick murder case, authorities strayed from this law by losing some of these biological relics and destroying evidence linked to a prominent doctor they never investigated for the crime.

In doing so, they may have covered the killer's genetic tracks.

This happened in Fort Collins, where a detective clung to his belief that a 15-year-old boy committed the crime, despite no physical evidence. In a county where prosecutors opposed saving DNA, let alone testing it. In a state where the law doesn't create a duty to preserve forensic evidence.

The result, as believed by three former Fort Collins police detectives and a former Colorado Bureau of Investigation director: An innocent man goes to prison for life, and the real killer moves on.

The really sad thing is that authorities aren't interested in getting innocent people released; they'd rather destroy evidence than admit fault. In Masters' case the lead investigator is now being investigated himself for not turning over evidence.

The Denver Post has whole series on these kinds of evidentiary problems:
Through carelessness or by design, tiny biological samples holding crucial DNA fingerprints often disappear on authorities' watch. Innocent people languish in prison, and criminals walk free. Police packaged requested evidence and labeled the box "DO NOT DESTROY." Then, they threw it in a dumpster.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

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Re: Mixed feelings...

dzetetes.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:28:30 PM EST

4.66 (brilliant, interesting, interesting)

I feel the state should, and indeed needs to have the right to sanction the killing of people - and really, everyone does - nobody would suggest that a war of self-defense is illegal, but from a moral standpoint there's not all that much difference between executions and war.

But there is. A true war of self-defense (not "Eyerack has teh WMDeez, let' s git um!") is carried out to protect the physical, political, and cultural integrity of a nation, not to mention the lives of its people. The circumstances leading to a war of self-defense may be morally murky, and a war of self-defense can certainly be carried out in a dirty fashion, but it's a question of options. When a country has been subjected to armed attack, and diplomatic solutions have been exhausted, it has to choose between armed conflict and capitulation, and that's about it.

I can't think of a criminal case in which our only two options would be the death penalty or letting the offender go (capitulation). Life w/out possibility of parole is the alternative that comes to mind, but I'm sure we could think of others if that's unsatisfactory for some reason. Of course, whether they'll admit it or not, most people who support the death penalty derive satisfaction from the punitive aspect of the practice. They like the idea that someone who has engaged in a heinous crime "gets what's coming to them."* The analogy in matters of war would not be a war of self-defense, but a war carried out to punish another country for something. I'm pretty sure that sort of war is illegal, at least among nations that have signed the UN Charter.

In any event, I don't think it's wise to change our laws based just on world opinion.

South Africa agreed with that principle from 1948-1994. It took a lot of internal resistance to bring apartheid down.

*And so do I, at times. I'm not unconvinced that some crimes deserve death. I'm just unconvinced that the state has a moral right to mete out that penalty.  

In regione caecorum, rex est luscus.

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Re: Mixed feelings...

port1080.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:36:05 PM EST

none

But there is. A true war of self-defense (not "Eyerack has teh WMDeez, let' s git um!") is carried out to protect the physical, political, and cultural integrity of a nation, not to mention the lives of its people. The circumstances leading to a war of self-defense may be morally murky, and a war of self-defense can certainly be carried out in a dirty fashion, but it's a question of options. When a country has been subjected to armed attack, and diplomatic solutions have been exhausted, it has to choose between armed conflict and capitulation, and that's about it.

Either way it's a matter of the state sanctioning killing - end of story. In the case of invasion, capitulation is still a choice, and so is non-violent resistance. Either the state is allowed to sanction killing, or it's not. If you allow it in even just the extreme case of self defense, then you can't fall back on "the state shouldn't ever sanction killing" as a reason for banning the death penalty. That said, I think that you're completely right that there's a huge difference between capital punishment and killing in a defensive war - but if we're making that argument, we're arguing about when killing is justified and when it's not justified, not over whether killing is ever justified. You've already admitted that it is, sometimes.

South Africa agreed with that principle from 1948-1994. It took a lot of internal resistance to bring apartheid down.

South Africa wasn't a democracy - when over half your population doesn't have political rights, it's a whole 'nother ballgame. International pressure was completely justified in that case. The US system, with all its flaws, doesn't even come close to being as unjust as South Africa's was.

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Re: Mixed feelings...

dzetetes.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 03:59:04 PM EST

4.66 (interesting, interesting)

Of course it's when killing is justified and when it's not that we're talking about. The part of your post I took issue with was "from a moral standpoint there's not all that much difference between executions and war." I asserted that from a moral standpoint, there is a great deal of difference between executions and war. It is the circumstances that inform the entire moral dimension of those two kinds of killing.* It's also in making those sorts of distinctions that there's anything worth talking about. After all, if you accept that the state has an unmitigated right to kill, then it doesn't really matter whether the killing is of enemy soldiers, or convicted murderers, or kindergarteners: it's all good. If you accept that the state never has a right to kill, then it doesn't really matter whether the killing is of enemy soldiers, or convicted murderers, or kindergarteners: it's all bad. The right of the state to kill implies the right of the state to perform executions only if the right of the state to kill implies the right of the state to kill kindergarteners.

"The state shouldn't ever sanction killing" and "the state does not have the moral right to institute the death penalty" are not equivalent statements (the latter is what I was getting at, although I actually said something along the lines of "I am unconvinced that the state has a moral right to institute the death penalty"). "The state has a moral right to kill under certain circumstances" and "the state does not have the moral right to institute the death penalty" are not contradictory statements. That "under certain circumstances" provides the out, of course, and those might seem like weasel words, but I'm not sure that the question "Does the state have a right to kill?" without a consideration of context is interesting except as an academic exercise. Only a sociopath would answer that question in the affirmative without any further consideration.

*In war, capitulation is a non-option option. If the goal is to maintain the integrity of the nation, it's unacceptable. If the goal in killing a convicted murderer is to keep him from killing again, there are other options than the death penalty. And if the goal in killing a convicted murderer is to punish him, then that killing is not analogous to war in self-defense.

In regione caecorum, rex est luscus.

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Re: Mixed feelings...

JimmyHavok.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 06:53:10 PM EST

4.50 (interesting, brilliant)

One significant difference between state killing in war and state killing in executions is that it is illegal to kill a prisoner in war, whereas an execution, by definition, is of a prisoner.  In war, the purpose of killing is to prevent the enemy from killing, and if he surrenders his ability to kill, then he is legally safe from being killed.  In execution, the purpose of killing is punishment, and the ability of the victim to kill is immaterial.

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Re: Mixed feelings...

dzetetes.

Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 04:10:55 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

South Africa wasn't a democracy - when over half your population doesn't have political rights, it's a whole 'nother ballgame. International pressure was completely justified in that case. The US system, with all its flaws, doesn't even come close to being as unjust as South Africa's was.

No, but world opinion was brought to bear on the segment of the South African population that could vote. Presumably, Blacks and Coloureds were in agreement with the sentiment that apartheid was not a good thing. I suppose it could be argued that sanctions against South Africa hurt the country as a whole, and thus unfairly hurt the people who had no say in the country's policies, but nobody is considering sanctions against the US.

In regione caecorum, rex est luscus.

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