Average computer users are not turned on by having to understand VGA mode settings in order to boot a GUI

I've never had a problem getting Ubuntu 7.10 to install in graphical mode (and I've installed it on everything from an old Celeron 366 with integrated mobo video, to a brand new Core2 Duo with a GeForce 8000 series PCI Express video card). It's also auto-detected almost all my hardware with no problems - the only thing it hasn't played well with is a very old Ensoniq soundcard.

nor are they going to put up with having to configure NDISwrapper in order to get their machine on the internet.

This is generally only an issue with wireless cards - again, with 7.10 I've had Ubuntu auto-configure every network card that I've thrown at it. Still, I totally agree that there needs to be more work put into supporting wireless connectivity. That's probably the one glaring weakness that I can see, particularly when we're talking about running Linux on a laptop.

In the past Ubuntu has had some issues with hardware support (which is what kept me from switching away from Windows sooner - I had major issues with the 6.x series of Ubuntu), but in the newer releases I think that they've been largely resolved. I'm wondering what version of Ubuntu you had all your troubles with? If it was 7.10 then I'll grant you have a point. I also agree that Ubuntu's default theme is ugly as fuck. It ships with the Clearlooks theme as an alternative, however, and that looks pretty good (in my opinion, anyway). Also, I've read that a new, more polished theme is on the priority list for upcoming versions of Ubuntu. Time will tell, I guess.

That's probably the one glaring weakness that I can see, particularly when we're talking about running Linux on a laptop

I'm wondering what version of Ubuntu you had all your troubles with?

All evidence points to laptops being the big growth area for new computers

Agreed - however, I think Ubuntu's future is cannibalizing sales from Windows on low-end desktop PCs (at least, at first). I think that if anyone is going to hurt Windows on the laptop market, it's going to be Apple. Laptops are something people will pay extra for (particularly after that first cheap laptop they buy sounds like a freight train due to all the fans, overheats anyway, and dies after a year and half), so in that market Apple's rep as a boutique seller helps, rather than hinders.

Other than that though, your points are well taken.

Linux supports vastly more hardware than either Windows or Mac OS X.  My Bluetooth keyboard doesn't work right with Windows.  When I put the machine to sleep, the keyboard never works again until I reboot.  And the rest of the Bluetooth stack isn't any better: transfers to and from the phone never work right.  I have a USB card reader, and when I "eject" it under WIndows, the entire reader is "ejected" and I can't read any more cards until I reboot.  Windows Vista cannot be installed on my desktop computer because it believes the CDROM is the first hard drive.  Is Windows failing because of its poor hardware support?

And we don't even need to talk about OS X.  The number of computers capable of running it can be counted on your fingers: MacBooks, PowerBooks, PowerMacs, Mac Pros, iMacs, iBooks, Mac minis, and XServes.

It is always amazing to me that people will complain about the "bad hardware support" under Linux when in fact Linux has the most broad hardware support of any operating system, by a huge margin.  Yes, it's true that a large number of eighth-tier wireless cards cannot be used with Linux.  However all the big names work perfectly out-of-the-box on Ubuntu: Intel Pro Wireless, Atheros, Intersil, Cisco, Lucent etc.  None of these work out-of-the-box on Windows, and only two (Intel and Lucent) work correctly with Mac OS X.

"Linux supports vastly more hardware than either Windows or Mac OS X."

No, unless you count c. 1996 SVGA and NIC cards.

"Windows Vista cannot be installed on my desktop computer because it believes the CDROM is the first hard drive.  Is Windows failing because of its poor hardware support?"

If the CDROM is seen as the first hard drive, I don't imagine Vista could very well boot at all, other than as an installation program.  Typically during an installation you will be asked to remove the install disk, so that the computer will boot from the hard drive.  Almost all computers are configured to boot from the CDROM if a bootable disk is present.

"It is always amazing to me that people will complain about the "bad hardware support" under Linux when in fact Linux has the most broad hardware support of any operating system, by a huge margin.  "

This does not match my experience, either in the past, or more recently with Ubuntu.  It utterly failed to auto-detect and install my wireless card on a new IBM thinkpad.  Vista had no problem.

"No, unless you count c. 1996 SVGA and NIC cards."

That, or currently-shipping.  Linux supported AHCI for almost a year before Windows bothered to pick it up, and Linux supported UHCI before the hardware even existed.  Linux supports my smart card, which Windows (and Mac OS) do not.  Linux supports the IPMI management board in my PC; Windows requires third-party drivers.  Linux supports the IT8718F environmental monitoring sensors on my motherboard; Windows requires third-party drivers.  Linux supports the vacuum fluorescent display on the front of my home theater PC; Windows has no idea what to do with it.  I could continue.

Do I even have to mention that I can install Linux on a PowerBook?  Try that with Windows.

"If the CDROM is seen as the first hard drive, I don't imagine Vista could very well boot at all, other than as an installation program.  Typically during an installation you will be asked to remove the install disk, so that the computer will boot from the hard drive.  Almost all computers are configured to boot from the CDROM if a bootable disk is present."

My PC boots perfectly except into Linux but not into the Vista installer.  The installer starts and then complains that I have no hard drives.  Therefore it is impossible to install Vista because obviously I have to boot the CD.  There is a Microsoft KB article on this topic but I'm too lazy to go look it up.  I got my $99 back, eventually.

In contrast Ubuntu has been glitch-free on my Thinkpad X40 since Edgy at least.  This is hardware that doesn't even come close to meeting the minimum system requirements for Vista.

Face it, the Ubuntu model of hardware support is 1000x better than the Microsoft model.  In the Microsoft model, Windows installs (if you're lucky) and boots into a hideous crippled state.  Then you are expected to go around the web trying to pry drivers out of the terrible web sites of all the random companies that made the junk in your computer.  Go to Intel to get chipset drivers.  Go to Nvidia to get graphics drivers.  Go to Analog Devices, of all people, to get sound drivers.  Try to find your Bluetooth drivers on Belkin's site.  

In the Linux model is if something doesn't work, and you aren't a hacker, then it just doesn't work.  The pressure from users steadily increases the hardware supported by the base system, which at this point is, as I pointed out originally, much more broad than the device support you get from Vista out of the box.

Windows requires third-party drivers

In the Microsoft model, Windows installs (if you're lucky) and boots into a hideous crippled state.  Then you are expected to go around the web trying to pry drivers out of the terrible web sites of all the random companies that made the junk in your computer.  Go to Intel to get chipset drivers.  Go to Nvidia to get graphics drivers.  Go to Analog Devices, of all people, to get sound drivers.  Try to find your Bluetooth drivers on Belkin's site

In the Linux model is if something doesn't work, and you aren't a hacker, then it just doesn't work

On the contrary, I've used every version of Windows since 3.0 including every version of Windows NT, 95/98, 2000, XP, and Vista.  They are all remarkably malformed.

My current desktop PC contains state-of-the-art equipment from Intel, including Intel-brand motherboard and Intel CPU.  All the peripherals on this machine -- the disk controllers, network interface, graphics engine, etc -- are made by Intel.  You may have heard of them: they are the largest computer equipment maker in the world.

And yet let us count all the ways in which this equipment does not work with Windows.  In Windows Vista the graphics are not accelerated unless I install a driver downloaded from Intel's website.  In Ubuntu the graphics are accelerated by default.  In Windows Vista, my SATA DVD writer does not even show up.  In Ubuntu Linux, my SATA DVD writer works perfectly.  Windows Vista won't install if the disk controller is set for AHCI mode.  In Linux, the disk controller works regardless of the BIOS setting.  In Windows Vista, I need a downloaded utility from a company called SigmaTel to get surround sound to work.  In Ubuntu Linux, surround sound works with no downloads.  Under Windows Vista, I have to download a driver if I want to use my Intel IOP431 RAID controller.  Under Ubuntu Linux the RAID controller works with no downloads, and unlike Windows, Linux will install onto and boot from that RAID controller.

The notion that Windows has better hardware support is not backed by any facts in evidence.  For any given bit of hardware Linux is likely to simply work with no downloads, whereas with Windows you will require a download, a CD-ROM, or you'll just have to wait until the next major release of Windows.

The notion that Windows has better hardware support is not backed by any facts in evidence

As to your "evidence," it is naught but anecdote, and I can easily counter it with my tales of ubuntu woe on the laptop I am using right now. Just getting the live CD GUI loaded required manual configuration, and nothing I tried was able to get the wireless to work. (I got a similar bit of advice on an ubuntu support forum and in an ubuntu IRC channel: you should have bought a different laptop - one known to work with ubuntu.)

I did manage to get this machine working using MEPIS* Linux, and I am pretty happy with the result. Still, getting a proper video driver took a manual configuration (for which MEPIS thankfully provided a GUI) and there is still no proper support for power management (nor was there for ubuntu). I mention this so you understand I have nothing against Linux, and, indeed, I like it quite a lot compared to Vista.* *

* I mentioned this elsewhere in this discussion: Gnome is terrible. Not that it is objectively terrible, but as a GUI is is rather primitive and there are much better alternatives. Just my opinion, of course.

 * * I still have to use Vista, perhaps 1/3 of the time, for Microsoft Office and for photo editing. Unfortunately there just aren't any suitable alternatives on Linux.

Wow.  That sucks.  I recently bought an HP notebook with dual AMD Turions, nVidia graphics and a Broadcom wireless, and everything worked right away.  I have had so few problems with Vista, I start wondering what all these people are talking about.  I appreciate the execution environment security, and the internationalization is vastly better.  It's not a whole lot different than XP, save for Aero, which is ok, but nothing to get excited about.  It has some dumb new features, ( Windows Sidebar?  Totally without purpose), but the file manager is much better.  Haven't had any driver problems since the first few weeks when it was being shaken out.

I'm holding off on the 64-bit version for a few more months, but I fully intend to use it.

I also ran Ubuntu-64 on a VMWare installation, and it worked pretty well, save for finding a graphics mode which fit the screen, and yes, the wireless was DOA.

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

Is Windows failing because of its poor hardware support?

It is always amazing to me that people will complain about the "bad hardware support" under Linux when in fact Linux has the most broad hardware support of any operating system, by a huge margin

None of these work out-of-the-box on Windows

No, because almost no one has any interest in making old computers run.

I realize you didn't imply anything different, but I just want to point out that people whose needs are served by the old hardware (and can't afford the new stuff) would love to re-use it.

Also by the way, old hardware requires a lot of processing before it can be recycled sustainably and ethically. Otherwise much of it gets shipped to China where people's lives are put at risk to extract the valuable elements, or said elements leech into the ground in landfill sites.

Am I a great person? Hell no - by most metrics I'm pretty much an asshole. -TSlothrop

Did you ever try SUSE? I must've tried it 5 or 6 years ago and it worked pretty well out of the box, on a homemade PC at that.

Did you ever try SUSE? I must've tried it 5 or 6 years ago and it worked pretty well out of the box, on a homemade PC at that

I probably should mention that I had always been trying to get Linux installed on laptops rather than desktops. No doubt that has informed my opinion of hardware support as I have been arguing elsewhere in this discussion. I still haven't figured out how to get any sort of standby/hibernate working - something that's pretty useful for a laptop.

SuSe has gone downhill somewhat since they got purchased by Novell. They made some weird patent deals with Microsoft that kind of freaked a lot of people out, and they really seem to be focusing more on the commercial / business market than on the personal computer market (ditto Red Hat / Fedora).

Buy your macbook for $1249, use it for 3 years, sell it for $600.

If Mac market share moves into the 50% plus range, do you think that resale value will hold up? I doubt it. A big part of the resale value is the artificial scarcity produced by Jobs pricing strategy. If Macs ever really take off in popularity, their aftermarket value will plummet. I'm not willing to be $600 on the hope that my notebook computer will hold its resale value. Also, I'm not the kind of person that likes to re-sell my old computers - I generally use things until they break or become almost totally obsolete. Given all this, Macs are simply never going to be the platform of choice for people like me. I do own two Mac laptops (an old clamshell G3 iBook and an aluminum case G4 Powerbook), but they're luxury items to me - all my my main hardware consists of generic PCs that have held up just as well as a Mac would have, and cost half the price (or less). As I said in my previous post, until Apple releases a system that doesn't require me to pay extra just to "be cool", Macs will never be the main computer in my household - and I'm sure that's doubly true for most mainstream PC buyers.

50% market share would mean prices come down a lot.  Also, there are people around here who have gotten osx running on non-mac hardware.  It was buggy but it can be done, so I wouldn't be surprised to see mac clones follow one day in the next few years.

Under the "Open With" dialogue, there's a checkmark for "Always open with". Which works intermittently.

As for iTunes, I don't see why I need a second copy of my mp3s stored on my computer, and access to a store I don't use unless someone buys me another giftcard. I guess I'm too used to Winamp and similarly small applications (Cog is great, so problem solved). I'll test out the printing advice later. Like I've mentioned, I'm sure most of my annoyance complaints will clear up with time.

Oh, hey, I don't mean to drop my Macbook nor place my motorcycle on top of me, mind you. :(

- derumi (del-me)
"Bobby Fischer? Man, that guy is crazy!" - Mike Tyson

My MacBook has handled being dropped pretty well: I've dropped into onto asphalt at least once, and I'm 6'4", so it had a ways down, and all I did was scrape up the aluminum shell.  Other than that it runs as well as it did before.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

I don't understand iTunes complaints - I think it is amazing and works perfectly.  Bloat? Where?

iTunes is a  44 meg download - pretty large just to listen to MP3s. Honestly, I find it to be a mediocre player. I use it cuz I've got a 1gig ipod shuffle and frequently change my playlist for it, but I'm real close to taking the Songbird plunge. For PC users it's under 14 megs in size and does a bunch of neat tricks that iTunes doesn't. I'll post a diary entry when I make the switch.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

I don't understand iTunes complaints - I think it is amazing and works perfectly.  Bloat? Where?

It takes up a big chunk of memory.  I run a Postgresql database on my machine, and it uses much less memory.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why it takes up so much.  Does it load everything into a bigass cache?  Why?  It's performance is not great.

That said, I like the Mac OS, but Apple computers are prohibitively expensive.  One thing I do not like (and never liked) about the Mac OS is the obscurity.  Yeah, stuff 'just works' except when it doesn't, and when that happens trying to figure out where stuff lives or how it gets configured is damn hard to do.  Yes, it's BSD under the covers, but stuff that you would expect to be where normal BSD machines put stuff is not always there, and nothing in the documentation or help tells you where it is.  That bugs me.

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

I've never noticed memory issues on my systems - I have 2GB of ram though.   You are right, iTunes shouldn't use so much memory, maybe they needed someplace to hide their drm? :)

I'm not having issues, I just don't understand why it's the biggest memory hog I have running.  

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

I was similarly frustrated with the Mac-like instead of console-like behavior of Home, End, and Delete in Terminal.app.  I ditched it for iTerm, and I've been very happy with it.  There was some jumping through hoops I had to do to get the keys to behave the way they should, but at least it was possible, as opposed to Terminal.app.  Unfortunately, that was a year ago, so I can't give you any pointers on the configuration.

" I've done my time with Linux system admin, and it's kind of fun when you get things working, but I ain't doing that without pay anymore."

I, too, spent many years working on a bunch of systems, from RSTS-E to VMS to AIX, and every small computer system in-between.

My best experience was with working with a DEC Alpha box running VMS.  It was once up and running for a full year without a problem.  Eventually, we had to take it down for hardware maintainance.  The operating system was about as reliable as a brick.

The IBM RS6000 AIX box wasn't nearly as good, needing a re-boot about once/wk.  The only thing it had going for it was SMIT (system management integration tool) that I wish was in every installation of Unix/Linux.  

I've tried Ubuntu 7.0, and wasn't particularly impressed.  

Apple notebooks are very nice, but way overpriced, so I guess I'm stuck with my HP notebook and Vista.  Now that I've spent hours getting it setup the way I want, it's not so bad.  It's something of a personal challenge to see how long it will go before I have to re-boot it again (longest so far ~36hrs).  

there's only one way to find out...

Yes, Microsoft will lock you in, too.  Any OS will.  So, the smartest people use an operating system that's free.

Just buy Linux pre-installed.  And Open Office is not that bad.  I have used it as my main word processor for two years now, and I have not encountered the problems you described.  I hate some parts of its interface, but I tend to hate the interface of most software I use.

I'll admit, though, that even I have a Windows partition or two hanging around.  I don't have the courage to run my tax preparation software under WINE.

I hate some parts of its interface, but I tend to hate the interface of most software I use.

I think this has something to do with using linux.

Heck yeah, management matters.  The lesson we learn from Yahoo! should be that you ought not to hire some closeted Scientologist from Hollywood to run a legitimate business.

By all rights Yahoo! should have been where Google is now. However lack of vision, lack of execution, and a general lack of understanding the internet...I see this all the time in the finance industry where banking websites show insufficient attention to interface design concerns

I think the way they have designed their respective websites indicates that Microsoft and Yahoo are screwed up in the same way.

If we're superficially just talking about Yahoo.com, then I agree with you.  However, for as badly as Yahoo has handled their "portal" and search engine, they've done a pretty good job with a lot of the rest of their network.  Flickr, Yahoo Mail, and Yahoo News are all well thought out and in many ways are the "market leader" for their particular part of the web.  I like using all three of those services (although I do use Google Mail for my main e-mail account, I use Yahoo for a couple of peripheral accounts) and I fear what they'll end up looking like if this deal goes through.  If MSNBC and Hotmail are any indication, it won't be pretty.

Flickr was the market leader when Yahoo bought them. And one of the first things Yahoo did was to force everyone who had been using Flickr to sign up for a Yahoo account in order to keep using it. Fuck Yahoo, I say.

one of the first things Yahoo did was to force everyone who had been using Flickr to sign up for a Yahoo account in order to keep using it.

Is that really that bad? If all MS does is make people sign up for Passport and otherwise leaves the Yahoo properties unchanged, I can handle that. What I can't handle is Yahoo taking Flickr, then akwardly renaming it Windows Live! Photos, moving the whole thing to a poorly performing Windows backend, and adding more and more cludgy graphical doodads and IE "optimizations" until it finally becomes unusable to anyone not running Windows Vista Ultimate Upgraded Microsoft $500 Assrape Edition.

Is that really that bad?
For me, yes.

I cannot do justice to the sheer hatred I have for Yahoo. From ratting out Chinese dissidents to ripping me off, personally (in conjunction with AT&T and Cingular), they've managed to work their way to the top 100 of my personal shit-list.

Just yesterday, a friend informed me he had a new blog, and would I care to read & comment? You bet your sweet bippy I would! But, NOOOOOOOOOOOoooooo!!! There was Yahoo, asking me to either create another fucking account, or log in. Some people may enjoy having multiple identities on-line, but I reached my fill years ago. It's virtual kipple, and kipple is taking over the world, y'know.

And another thing I hate is plastic chairs! You know, the white ones. They've definitely taken over the planet!

So, yeah, I still have an icy lump of coal where my heart used to be, when it comes to plastic chairs and Yahoo. Microsoft is a good fit for them, I guess.
(End of Rooney)

----- The earth may fail, but we will quiver

There is already integration between Vista and Flickr.