Politics

Debate #2: The Undercards

DEMachina.

Posted to Politics on Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 06:53:17 AM EST (promoted from Diaries by port1080). RSS.

DEMachina writes: So, I'm basing my impression of the debate on the 5-10 minute segment I heard on NPR on the drive home from my girlfriend's.

And it was about what I expected.  Two extremely rehearsed people throwing sound bites across each other.  Notice I didn't say "at" ... I really don't think the "debate" would have sounded any different if they'd been in different rooms or been asked the questions at different times.

Biden sounded like a politician, Palin like a soccer mom on the school board.

I would've watched when I got home, but all I can get on CNN's site is "stream error: stream cannot be reached," along with a link to their FAQ, which is singularly unhelpful.  Seriously, is it too much to ask to have useful error messages?

Update 10/3 by port1080: The general pundit consensus appears to be that this was a draw, with Biden perhaps have a slight edge, but with Palin far outperforming expectations. Palin has, however, received some criticism from the right over her attempts at economic populism, and from the left for the lack of specificity in many of her answers, while the consensus on Biden seems to be that he avoided any major gaffes. Watch the full debate below:

Tags: edited by Port080, written by DEMachine, politics, presidential election, vice presidential debate, debate, Sarah Palin, Joe Biden, O'Biden, FTW (all tags)

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22

Slate Blogger Nails Palin

port1080.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:35:53 AM EST

4.50 (brilliant, interesting)

Now that I've gotten your attention with that tasteless subject line...I do think this is a nice summary of why Palin turns a lot of people (including me) off, even when she is in good form like she was last night:

Sarah Palin reminds me of a character in a GeorgeSaunders story. Saunders writes brilliant short stories about characters trapped in the American Dream (TM). They are workers at theme parks or Hooters-style restaurants, mummified in corporate-sponsored "flair" (to borrow from the brilliant film Office Space). They speak in the same style of substanceless perk. They are to humanity what MSG is to flavor. (At least, some are.) Palin is of course far more successful than many of Saunders' characters, and I don't make the comparison merely to caricature her,  but to capture what I think is crucial about her. She buys into a whole vocabulary of signifiers that often don't signify very much, and she scaffolds that lexicon with winks, smiles, and carefully mimed gestural reinforcement. All politicians employ empty rhetoric, of course. But I don't know that I've ever seen one employ superficial language with such a sense of palpable enjoyment at her (or his, of course) mastery. And just like Saunders' characters she  refuses to show vulnerability or hesitation, deploying rapid-fire pre-packaged phrases like a missile shield, as if the silence that comes with groping for ideas were deadly...

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Debate Needed Michael Buffer.

MayorBob.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:05:49 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Your headline does justice to the appropriate place of the Veep candidates in terms of who the public ought to be voting for next month.  But, the debate could have been given a little energy and juice if Buffer had done the introductions:

"At this corner, wearing the Brooks Brothers suit and sporting a crown of hair plugs, ready to defend credit card banks in a single bound is the Delaware Destroyer -- Joooe Biiiiiden.  At the other podium, wearing a form fitting business suit with loverly high heels, ready to field dress a moose, maverick-style, is the Killah from Wasilla -- Saraaahhh Paaalin.  LLLLETTTTTSSSSS GETTUH RRRRRREDDDDYYYY TOOO RRRRRRRRUMMMMBBBBBBLLLLE!"

Or maybe not.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Presidential Survivor: A Modest Proposal

Shy Elf.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 09:31:05 AM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

I've been thinking about Sarah Palin, and what she says about how our system of governance has gone wrong.  Her ignorance is hardly unique; I find her less ignorant than George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan.  In our electoral system, the candidate often rises to prominence not by merit, but simply by being there at the right time.  What is exceptional about Palin is just that her rapid rise to the national scene allowed us to see her with her talking-point mask still half-formed, while the national stage of the vice-presidency nomination focused national attention on her in a way we don't look at candidates for lesser office.

Are we better off as a country now that she can spout out the names of the three Supreme Court decisions most hated by conservatives?  No, we're not.  There's no way that knowing just these three names could have improved her ability to reason, nor can using these three cases as a litmus test for Supreme Court appointees prove useful.  But had she simply been able to come up with these three names earlier, we would have been satisfied that she knew enough about the Supreme Court to run the country.

The problem is that this doubt about their true competence applies to every candidate.  What about Barak Obama?  He can come up with the Democratic position on almost any issue at a moment's notice.  But does that mean he's a great thinker who can pick out the correct course for America in difficult times, or does it mean only that he has a talent for memorizing talking points he doesn't understand?  We, the electorate, really have little way of knowing.  Under the current system, there's no visible difference.

The problem with our electoral procedures and debates is they are designed on the false premise that the United States is a democracy.  If the United States were a democracy, what we would want from our candidates is that they tell us all of their positions, and then we would vote for the candidate whose positions most closely resemble our own.

The United States is not a democracy.  It's a republic.  The candidate we want to vote for is not the one whose positions resemble our own, but the one who can do the best job of running the country in the event of yet unforeseen circumstances.  In order to determine this, we need to be able to evaluate the candidates in depth.  The current system interposes a mask of performance-art recitations of memorized talking-points between us and the candidates.  It doesn't show us how they react to the unexpected.

I propose the following remedy to this situation; we will take the government budget for matching funds for the presidential campaign, and instead of attaching strings to it requiring candidates to limit the funds they accept, we will use it as prize money in a new gameshow: Presidential Survivor.

Any candidate on the ballot in 26 states may enter the gameshow simply by providing one million valid signatures.  Prize money may only be spent on campaign advertising, including the usual TV ads describing Barak Obama's plan to teach comprehensive sex education to kindergarteners or John McCain's black love-child.

Each week, we will select a random question about public policy.  One seventh will be submitted by each campaign.  One seventh will be written by a randomly selected hard science professor about a public policy question involving their discipline.  One seventh will be written by a randomly selected economist or law professor or political scientist.  For one seventh of the questions, we will randomly select a country and then randomly select a newspaper headlines until we find one which can plausibly involve the US.  Two sevenths will be policy questions from a randomly selected citizen.

Both candidates will be locked in a room with a computer for half an hour which they can use to look up things on the internet but not to ask advice from their campaign.  After this time, they must take a position on the issue.  If the positions are the same, one (alternating turns) will be forced to argue the opposite position.  On consecutive weeks, the candidates may not agree twice in a row.  If this happens, a new topic is selected until they take differing positions.  Each candidate is given two more hours to research the topic, and then they will debate for 45 minutes.  The debate winner will be judged by ten randomly-selected citizens, who will have the help of experts in the field, and each vote as a winner will pay campaign cash.

I look forward to seeing each candidate handle long debates on such topics as "Building a better banana: bioengineering a changed Cavendish to purge the Panamanian plague," and "Girls, who would you most like to get jiggy with?  Brad Pitt or Clay Aiken?"(Citizen Submitted).

In order to keep the audience from becoming bored and to better show the candidates' leadership skills, each sixth week will be a team physical challenge competition with their staff.  This will not be unfair to old folks like McCain because the winner will be again selected by voting.

In order to get a true idea of how the presidential candidates will react to the unknown, it is vital that we implement a system like this.  For the good of our country, please send this proposal to your congressmen and demand action.

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re-inventing the wheel

Lou.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 10:54:51 AM EST

none

Presidential Survivor

Isn't that what the primaries are...without the cool games, of course?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

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Re: re-inventing the wheel

LostBoyJim.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 08:00:41 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant, funny)

cool games?  How about eating 20 different types of Texas Chili, all made with hot chilis (gross-out challenge)!  Or kissing hundreds of babies (some of them MUST be sick, it's the physical endurance, and the disease resistance challenge)!  Or the "Which square state am I an now"? (Memory challenge).

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the Cavendish tastes like paste

JimmyHavok.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 04:44:09 PM EST

none

Good riddance to it!

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Re: Presidential Survivor: A Modest Proposal

DEMachina.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 07:22:55 PM EST

none

Oh, how I wish....

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

5

Lack of "culture war" questions...

port1080.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:22:08 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Was anyone else surprised by the lack of culture war related questions? Sure, there was that gay marriage question, but Ifel didn't press either of them on their non-answers there. It would have been nice to see Palin forced to explain her views on religion, abortion, etc. Ditto Biden, since he tries to walk the line and be a good Catholic that opposes abortion, yet somehow votes for pro-choice policies. These questions might not be quite as life or death as the bigger issues that were touched upon, but frankly they're probably the ones where the President has the most ability to actually change policy unilaterally, and hence are, I think, something need to force the candidates to publicly state their opinions on.

1

Re: move along

ms sue.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 09:49:12 PM EST

none

Palin didn't drool, so I guess she won.

But did anyone else notice that she is dyslexic? Everything she tried to say came out backwards.

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Re: move along

Dvandom.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:20:02 AM EST

5.00 (informative, funny)

A bit of a temporal shift too, given her reference to General McClellan.  

So, what IS the Army of the Potomac up to these days?

---Dave

This is not a signature.

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^ 1

Re: move along

joshv.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:10:18 PM EST

none

Everything came out backwards?  I remember one occasion where she reversed some words - were there others?

She did about as well as she needed to.  I think there are a lot of Republicans breathing a sigh of relief tonight.  She wasn't perfect, she sounded scripted at times, genuine at others, ignored questions in favor of talking points, and went a little scarily off script at others - in other words par for the course for a political debate.  Most importantly she made no major gaffs and didn't give the impression that she was out of her league.

I am sure the left is a bit saddened that she didn't repeat her Couric performance.  What a shame, a potential future vice president isn't actually a vacuous idiot - how disappointing.  Not that I really care for her all that much myself, but it's good to know she can acquit herself passably well on the national stage.

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^ 2

Re: move along

port1080.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:16:48 PM EST

3.00

I am sure the left is a bit saddened that she didn't repeat her Couric performance. What a shame, a potential future vice president isn't actually a vacuous idiot - how disappointing. Not that I really care for her all that much myself, but it's good to know she can acquit herself passably well on the national stage. I concur...my views on her are obviously well known, and nothing she does will change my belief that McCain's choice of her was dangerously irresponsible, but watching her performance tonight did put me at ease a bit. Nevertheless, it should never have come to this. It should be clear from the get-go that a VP candidate is capable of handling national politics - it's not something that we should just finally be finding out a month after she was picked.

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^ 2

Re: move along

ms sue.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:31:00 PM EST

none

joshv, yes, I counted several times where she stated things either backwards or twisted them all around. I'd have to have the transcript in front of me. I would say nerves were to blame. And Biden was not without awkwardness himself.

I do disagree with you that she didn't appear out of her league, assuming we're talking about the same league. My impression was that she looked like a high school debater and that she relied far too heavily on affected folksiness and scripted sound bytes.

Republicans may be breathing a sigh of relief that she didn't stand there mute or start babbling nonsense too often. But that doesn't make me feel any better whatsoever that she may be my President in the near future.

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Re: move along

port1080.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:43:09 PM EST

none

Republicans may be breathing a sigh of relief that she didn't stand there mute or start babbling nonsense too often. But that doesn't make me feel any better whatsoever that she may be my President in the near future.

Not in the least?  I mean, as I've made abundantly clear, I'm not fan of Palin, but I thought she did reasonably well.  She's more well-spoken than Bush, I'd say, and seems more intelligent (although, unfortunately, far less experienced).  That's not at all an endorsement, but considering my initial fears were that she would be a step down from Bush, I think she at least crossed that hurdle.

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^ 7

Re: move along

joshv.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:48:05 PM EST

none

"...but considering my initial fears were that she would be a step down from Bush, I think she at least crossed that hurdle..."

Setting the bar high aren't we?

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Re: move along

ms sue.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:53:20 PM EST

none

Not in the least, port.

I cannot even fathom her as a potential President. Would she be better or worse than Bush? Wow. It's sad that it's come to our even having to ask this question.

BTW, I thought the strongest point Biden made in the whole debate was his response to the nature of the vice presidency. His attack on Cheney was forceful and seemed to come from a genuine loathing of the man and his rule.

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Biden's constitution gaffe

profwhat.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:09:05 AM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

Biden really misspoke here:

Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.

Article I of the Constitution deals with Congress, not the Executive Branch.  The Vice President is mentioned in Article I and Article II, and also the amendments dealing with succession; Article I does not "define" his role.

Someone who has spent half of his life on the Judiciary Committee, and brags about teaching law school, should not make this sort of error.  Someone who is a candidate for Vice President, especially, should have brushed up on the VP's constitutional role at some point.  

If Palin has made this type of screwup, how many media cycles do you think we'd be stuck on it?

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Re: Biden's constitution gaffe

port1080.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 09:03:26 AM EST

none

Biden could have made his point better, but I'm not sure that he fucked that one up as bad as you're making it out to be.  Biden was responding to the notion that the VP should serve a strong role in controlling the Senate.  He was trying to make the point that according to the Constitution, the VP's only role in Congress is to break tie votes in the Senate.  Thus it is very much legitimate to cite Article 1 (which lays out the role of Congress, as you note), because it only mentions the VP once, and it clearly states "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided."  To me, and to Biden, that implies quite clearly that the VP's only real role in the Senate is ceremonial, except to break tie votes.  When viewed as a response to that, his statement - "Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch" - makes more sense.  It would have been even more clear if he had said something like: "Article I of the Constitution, which lays out how Congress functions, defines the role of the vice president of the United States as only serving to break tie votes in the Senate.  He has no other defined powers, because he's supposed to be part of the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch."  But then people would have criticized him for being too wonkish, long-winded, and out of touch.

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Re: Biden's constitution gaffe

profwhat.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:17:03 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

He was trying to make the point that according to the Constitution, the VP's only role in Congress is to break tie votes in the Senate.

No, he was trying to make the point that the VP is part of the executive branch; for that, Article II is much more helpful.  Or even the 25th Amendment.  If anything, Article I contradicts Biden's point.

You say that "He has no other defined powers, because he's supposed to be part of the Executive Branch," but that isn't clear at all.  In the executive branch, he has no constitutional power at all.  The first sentence of Article II even tells us "The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America," and many scholars have argued this means that the entire executive branch is one man.  (The phrase "unitary executive" comes to mind, although no one uses that after the press got ahold of that phrase, and warped it into something involving authoritarianism).  But in the legislative branch, the Vice President is president of the Senate, and sometimes gets to vote there.

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Re: Biden's constitution gaffe

port1080.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:26:25 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

No, he was trying to make the point that the VP is part of the executive branch; for that, Article II is much more helpful.  Or even the 25th Amendment.  If anything, Article I contradicts Biden's point.

This is the crux of it.  You see him as arguing that the VP is part of the executive branch.  I see him as arguing that the VP is not part of the legislative branch.  Unfortunately, neither one of us knows what he was really thinking.  In any case, I will give you the point, at least in the sense that I think Biden could have been much more clear.  I certainly don't think it was his strongest moment in the debate, at all.  And I do agree with you when you say that people would have jumped over Palin if she'd said something similar.  I think Biden's received a pass on it (for the mos part) because people see him as being knowledgeable about the issue and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just slipped up.  Whether that benefit of the doubt is deserved, well, I think maybe not.  On the other hand, I think Colin's point below is very astute - how do you think Palin would have responded if Iffel had asked her to rebut Biden's point?  She had every opportunity to point out Biden's error there during the debate, but didn't.  Perhaps if she hadn't been trying to think up another way to say "There you go again Joe" for the twentieth time, she might not have missed it.

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Catching errors

profwhat.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:53:37 PM EST

none

Palin had no good reason to point out Biden's errors, even if she had noticed them; it would have contradicted her folksy persona to ding Biden on the type of legalistic, inconsequential stuff that people like you and me notice.  Do you remember "You forgot Poland?"

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constitution smonstitution

JimmyHavok.

Sat Oct 04, 2008 at 12:31:22 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

profwhat is just parroting Cheney's claim that he isn't subject to National Archives and Records oversight because he's not a member of the administrative branch.  It's warmed-over crap, although it is interestingly arcane warmed-over crap.  I thought that was down the memory hole long ago.

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Say What?

Shy Elf.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:15:42 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

IFILL: Governor, I'm happy to talk to you in this next section about energy issues. Let's talk about climate change. What is true and what is false about what we have heard, read, discussed, debated about the causes of climate change?

PALIN: Yes. Well, as the nation's only Arctic state and being the governor of that state, Alaska feels and sees impacts of climate change more so than any other state. And we know that it's real.

I'm not one to attribute every man -- activity of man to the changes in the climate. There is something to be said also for man's activities, but also for the cyclical temperature changes on our planet.

But there are real changes going on in our climate. And I don't want to argue about the causes. What I want to argue about is, how are we going to get there to positively affect the impacts?

We have got to clean up this planet. We have got to encourage other nations also to come along with us with the impacts of climate change, what we can do about that.

As governor, I was the first governor to form a climate change sub-cabinet to start dealing with the impacts. We've got to reduce emissions. John McCain is right there with an "all of the above" approach to deal with climate change impacts.

We've got to become energy independent for that reason. Also as we rely more and more on other countries that don't care as much about the climate as we do, we're allowing them to produce and to emit and even pollute more than America would ever stand for.

So even in dealing with climate change, it's all the more reason that we have an "all of the above" approach, tapping into alternative sources of energy and conserving fuel, conserving our petroleum products and our hydrocarbons so that we can clean up this planet and deal with climate change.

If she's contemplating greenhouse gas emission reductions, isn't it important to know and debate how much of global warming is natural?

What is the point of an international initiative to deal with global warming effects?  Effects occur at a local level, and no international initiative is necessary.

What does energy independence have to do with global warming?  Does global warming reverse if suddenly we "Drill, Baby, Drill," and get our energy from the US?

Who is it that we don't want to "emit and even pollute more than America would ever stand for?"

IFIL:Now, let's talk about -- the next question is to talk about the subprime lending meltdown.

Who do you think was at fault? I start with you, Gov. Palin. Was it the greedy lenders? Was it the risky home-buyers who shouldn't have been buying a home in the first place? And what should you be doing about it?

PALIN: Darn right it was the predator lenders, who tried to talk Americans into thinking that it was smart to buy a $300,000 house if we could only afford a $100,000 house. There was deception there, and there was greed and there is corruption on Wall Street. And we need to stop that.

Again, John McCain and I, that commitment that we have made, and we're going to follow through on that, getting rid of that corruption.

PALIN: One thing that Americans do at this time, also, though, is let's commit ourselves just every day American people, Joe Six Pack, hockey moms across the nation, I think we need to band together and say never again. Never will we be exploited and taken advantage of again by those who are managing our money and loaning us these dollars. We need to make sure that we demand from the federal government strict oversight of those entities in charge of our investments and our savings and we need also to not get ourselves in debt. Let's do what our parents told us before we probably even got that first credit card. Don't live outside of our means. We need to make sure that as individuals we're taking personal responsibility through all of this. It's not the American peoples fault that the economy is hurting like it is, but we have an opportunity to learn a heck of a lot of good lessons through this and say never again will we be taken advantage of.

"Never will we be exploited and taken advantage of again by those who are managing our money and loaning us these dollars?"  The credit markets are seized up, banks won't loan each other money, the economy is heading down the tubes like an olympic bobsledder, and Sarah Palin says what we need to do is get the government to step in and not let banks loan us money?

Look, this was a good debate for her.  She looked witty and in touch with the average voter, and she rarely looked like a babbling idiot.  But for those who saw the Couric interview, and were questioning her basic competence, there was no point in the debate that they could point to and say, "Man, right there, she really wasn't just delivering talking points.  She really knows here stuff."  And that's what she really needed.  But at the end of the debate if 82 percent of people watching thing your opponent is qualified for the job and  42 percent think you are, no matter how much you exceeded expectations you still have a problem.

All 3 of the other candidates look well qualified on foreign policy.  Palin doesn't look remotely close.  All 3 of the other candidates look like they have absolutely no clue how to fix the economy.  Palin looks like she doesn't even know there's a problem.

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Re: move along

port1080.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:59:23 PM EST

none

BTW, I thought the strongest point Biden made in the whole debate was his response to the nature of the vice presidency. His attack on Cheney was forceful and seemed to come from a genuine loathing of the man and his rule. Yeah, I thought Biden did a nice job with tying McCain to Cheney, and to the Bush legacy. Palin had a much harder time attacking Obama in that way, since there just isn't that much of a record there. To the extent that she went after Biden for changing his mind about supporting the Iraq war, well, I think maybe that would have hurt Biden if he was running, but I'm not sure that it hurt Obama, since conventional wisdom has pretty much settled on accepting that going to war was a bad idea. Recycling the tropes that worked against Kerry isn't going to be a winning strategy, I think.

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^ 6

Re: move along

joshv.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:46:02 PM EST

none

Though I didn't much care for the folksiness and the informal colloquialisms, it will resonate with the people it was meant for, and it didn't sounded particularly affected.  If anybody can lay claim to having "main street-cred", she can.

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Re: move along

PenitenziAgite.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 12:33:55 PM EST

5.00 (obnoxious)

She has the Main St. street cred of that busybody who tools around the neighborhood reminding people of their obligations under the Homeowner's Association rules, and that kind of mother who bitches out teachers for not giving their kids A's, even though they did C-level work, and spent most of their time on the cheer squad.

Let's face it, she'd be out of her depth in a car-park puddle.

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

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listening in

JimmyHavok.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:24:11 AM EST

none

I listened to the debates on the radio, and the most jarring moment to me was when she was talking about "going to a soccer game and talking to people on the sidelines."  She sounded so perky and happy that the money shot when she said they would say they were worried was a complete surprise, and she continued to sound cheery, at complete odds with her words, throughout that whole answer...which, if I recall correctly was a total non sequitur to the question.

I'll have to watch some of it later.  I suspect she was grinning like a monkey while she spoke.

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Re: move along

DEMachina.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:30:44 AM EST

none

I'm glad someone else picked up on the assumed folksiness.  The whole time I was listening, I was trying to figure out why an Alaskan was trying to fake a Southern accent.

Q: What do you think of western civilization? Gandhi: I think it would be a good idea.

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Re: move along

JimmyHavok.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 05:20:41 AM EST

none

She sounds kind of Minnesotan to me.  There's really no "Alaskan" accent, except among the First Peoples, because everyone is from somewhere else.  But I agree, she's pumping up the Midwestern twang there.  It's definitely stronger than it was at her convention speech.

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^ 1

Re: move along

delete me.

Thu Oct 02, 2008 at 10:13:02 PM EST

none

Wouldn't that be spooneriffic, not dyslexic?

- derumi (del-me)
"Bobby Fischer? Man, that guy is crazy!" - Mike Tyson

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Re: move along

pO157.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:15:20 AM EST

none

But did anyone else notice that she is dyslexic? Everything she tried to say came out backwards.  

She gave me flash backs to what I am sure I looked like from the audience at my preliminary exam. It takes a brilliant orator to be even remotely intelligible under such pressure.

12

Re: move along

tomc.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 12:33:24 AM EST

none

fwiw, I think this was the best debate I've seen in years.  An excellent show!

16

My observations:

MayorBob.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 07:08:48 AM EST

none

Palin came off like a nervous junior running for student council president.  She seemed more than a little tense and nervous and, frankly, she got away with murder.  She obviously was well rehearsed from the standpoint that, if a question came up she might be thin on knowledge, it was best to fall back on her supposed strengths: energy, middle class status, being a maverick and a hockey mom, and having a special needs child.  And she did, time after time.  Even when Biden pointed out that Palin hadn't answered a question or two, it didn't take Palin off her going in strategy of sticking to what she claimed as her fortes.

Biden came off as relaxed, cool and responsive to questions put to him.  He seemed uncharacteristically disciplined in not jumping at Palin and going for the jugular in those odd moments when Palin trod on unfirm turf.  Nuclear arms and nonproliferation was one opportunity I thought Biden blew.  Palin went on and on about that old poopie-head Ahmenijad in Iran and also threw in Kim Jong Il and the Castro brothers for good measure and how it was really, really, really important to insure that they didn't develop nuclear weapons (despite the fact that North Korea already has them and Cuba, to my knowledge, has never tried to develop them).  

I would have loved for Biden to simply ask Palin just how far she would go to insure they didn't get them.  Would you counsel unleashing the Israelis against the Iranians?  Would you counsel attacking Iran itself if you thought they were really close?  Palin seems to me to be the type who might just tip over the water bowl at that point and say those sounded like good ideas and might have given in to even more ghastly scenarios.

Bottomline, this debate ended up being a tie IMHO, because Palin never screwed the pooch and Biden never managed to land a body blow.  She exceeded expectations or her handlers and, most certainly, the great mass of voters who might have been watching her for the first time.  She certainly didn't lose McCain any votes.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

26

^ 16

Re: My observations:

gerrymander.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:21:17 AM EST

2.00 (obnoxious)

Biden came off as relaxed, cool and responsive to questions put to him.

Yes, it's a real talent to be that sure of your answers, especially when the answers are completely incorrect. Port1080 already mentioned one huge mistake, in Biden's assertion that Executive powers were outlined in Article I of the Constitution. The guy has a law degree and sits on the Judiciary Committee in the Senate. Shouldn't he have some idea of what the Constitution says?

There was also his statement that Hizb'allah was kicked out of Lebanon. That has never happened, not by the United States (with or without France's help), not by Israel, not by Lebanon. And again, he's the part of the Democratic ticket which is supposed to have the international experience, what with his seat on the Foreign Relations Committee.

If this is the voice of "experience," I'll rather have Palin in the job. At least she knows how much she has to learn.

27

^ 26

In Palinspeak:

MayorBob.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:27:03 AM EST

none

Gollee Gee.  Yah think?  Fer shure.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

28

^ 26

Re: My observations:

pO157.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:27:41 AM EST

none

I'll rather have Palin in the job. At least she knows how much she has to learn.

Oh come on, that's just overboard. Hell, I can see a foreign country from my front yard, probably been to more countries than Palin has, and I recognize I have a ton to learn but nobody is nominating me for VP of anything.

By your argument there would probably be a few thousand people in the US (at a minimum) who are just as qualified as Palin, if not more so.

29

^ 28

Re: My observations:

gerrymander.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:39:37 AM EST

4.66 (funny, funny, brilliant)

By your argument there would probably be a few thousand people in the US (at a minimum) who are just as qualified as Palin, if not more so.

Yes. Perhaps the Democrats should have picked one of them.

30

^ 29

Re: My observations:

pO157.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:47:07 AM EST

none

So Palin is more qualified than Biden because the Senator was confused over an article of the Constitution? Why is this important? I thought you GOP types felt the Constitution was just a god damned piece of paper?

48

^ 30

Re: My observations:

ckm.

Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 03:00:06 PM EST

3.66 (obnoxious, astute)

Please don't feed the troll.  

Gerrymander is very, very good at taking extremist positions to get a rise out of people.   However, he doesn't have much more than broad-stroke generalities, much like Palin or any other taunting head.  Basically, he a symptom of what's wrong with current American political discourse.  

Best to just ignore him, perhaps he will go away.  It's bad ju-ju to scratch a scab.

Chris

33

^ 30

Re: My observations:

gerrymander.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 11:23:02 AM EST

none

And apparently, you agree.

31

^ 26

Article One, Section Three.

MayorBob.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 10:50:26 AM EST

none

Contains this goody about the office of Vice President:

The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no vote, unless they be equally divided.

Which is what Biden went to great lengths to point out during the debate.  Palin at least admitted her previous "I don't know" was flippant and said she understood the vice president presides over the Senate.  It might have been revealing had Biden pressed her for what the limits of the vice president insofar as Senatorial duties were.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

32

^ 31

Re: Article One, Section Three.

gerrymander.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 11:21:03 AM EST

none

Here's what Biden said:

Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.
Biden correctly identified where the VP's powers are defined -- and then completely flubbed his point, by asserting those powers were granted as part of the Executive branch. It really doesn't get much more clear than "Article I. -- The Legislative Branch."

35

^ 32

That Would Have Been Classic

thefadd.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:07:38 PM EST

5.00 (brilliant)

Yeah, too bad the moderator wasn't like, "Joe, I believe you've misspoken there about the nature of Article I of the Constitution. Sarah, would like to correct him?"

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

37

^ 32

Re: Article One, Section Three.

port1080.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:17:10 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

then completely flubbed his point, by asserting those powers were granted as part of the Executive branch.

The way I read it is that he made a verbal stumble.  I felt like he was starting to go into a detailed explanation of how Article I limits the VP's powers, then he realized that it would come across as him lecturing about obscure political rules, so he tried to turn what he was saying into a pithy-remark mid-sentence, and failed miserably.

40

^ 37

Re: Article One, Section Three.

gerrymander.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:50:51 PM EST

none

You can read it however you like. The fact remains that what he actually said was wrong.

21

One exchanged summarized the whole thing for me.

pO157.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 08:20:05 AM EST

none

Biden basically said that "Drill, drill, drill" is not an appropriate response to the energy crisis; Palin responded by cracking "The chant is actually 'Drill, baby, drill.'"

WTF does that have to do with anything? How is that a substantive rebuttal?

In conclusion, even though I am obviously not a fan of hers I thought she held her own, or at least did better than expected. Biden 'won,' for whatever that means.

24

^ 21

Which Is-- Nothing

uncarved block.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 09:57:58 AM EST

5.00 (astute)

    It wouldn't have mattered, IMO, who won or lost, because the whole exercise was pointless. Well, not entirely pointless-- it would be considered worse if the public had no idea who the veeps would respond to public pressure, but that's not the greatest reason to have an event. It would have taken something along the lines of a total fuck up for this to have mattered electorally. Maybe one of them calling the other a doody-head, or using some other playground expression . . .
    Why? Well, veeps don't traditionally count for much anyway, and this time around especially so. The way I see it, presidential elections are a mix between "vote for" and "vote against"; both urges are present in every cycle, but some elections are more one than the other. 2000 and 2004 were very much "vote against" affairs, for instance, the first because of Clinton and Bush's lack of a political resume besides his last name, the second because of Iraq. Keeping a candidate out of office was, for many I heard, a virtue that surpassed whatever their side brought to the table.
    But this year seems very much like a "vote for" election, despite the efforts of some of the faithful on both sides to the contrary. This was kind of true before, but ever since the bailout talk began, I'd say it's even more so. It sounds like Palin ran a lot of lines out of the "vote against" playbook last night, and while that might help a little, I can't see that it either added any voters that weren't already there because of her image, or that it gave any more reasons to vote for McCain. Biden didn't do that either, but then he's never outshone Obama, or even tried, a marked contrast to the enthusiasm Palin brought to the McCain campaign.
    But it sure gave the talking heads a lot to chew on. Did you see how many fucking pundits Anderson Cooper had on the stage? Christ, what a mess.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

39

Lowering the bar don'cha know

1fastdog.

Fri Oct 03, 2008 at 01:40:43 PM EST

none

I'm not watching any more debates. Last night's was especially empty of substance. I bitched about the last debate being mostly a recitation of campaign talking points, so why I expected anything more is anyone's guess... I was hoping for a little more spontaneity; what I got was bupkus.
Palin barely answered any question on topic. Mostly she spouted canned talking points ad nauseum in that vapid, readily transparent, fake-ass folksy "accent" of hers. I knew she'd be pulling out the populist dick and start sucking it for all its worth as soon as she mentioned that she wasn't going to necessarily answer the questions that the Ifill asked.
"Yaa know Gwen, I'ma MAVERICK hawwkey mom and MAVERICK hawwkey moms need a little more relief from big govt oppression darn-it all. And you know what John McCain is? A MAVERICK, that's right youbetcha. We're both reformers, doggone it. Oh, and MAVERICKS!!"
Not a real quote, but it sure as hell could've been.

Biden was almost as bad with the endless repetition of talking points, but at least he managed to work in some genuine feeling from time to time, especially when late in the debate he hammered home the point that McCain=Bush:

"The issue is: How different is John McCain's policy going to be than George Bush's? I haven't heard anything yet," he said. "I haven't heard how his policy is going to be different on Iran than George Bush's. I haven't heard how his policy is going to be different with Israel than George Bush's. I haven't heard how his policy in Afghanistan is going to be different than George Bush's. I haven't heard how his policy in Pakistan is going to be different than George Bush's."

Other than that, I thought he was mostly meh, but he at least gave the impression that he could step up to be president if it came to that. Palin came off as a programmed droid with no thoughts beyond what they'd obviously been shoveling into her uninquisitive grey matter. There were one or two moments when it looked like she went off script and spoke from her heart (something about her and McCain disagreeing on something and how she was going to continue to convince him he was wrong) and those were her best moments. That Palin would've earned a few more credibility points than Hawwwkey mom Palin. Everything else she did, she did for the partisan faithful. Which is dumb, 'cuz they're already gonna vote GOP. The target audience should've been the independents still receptive to the GOP ticket. Palin's caricature of herself, if it didn't send independents out looking for sharp sticks to poke in their ears, certainly did nothing to sway them her way. All it did was lower the bar for future VP aspirants. Don'cha know.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

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