Diary

Thursday.... Things.

pO157.

Posted to Diary on Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 12:22:25 PM EST. RSS.

I was at a holiday party last night and inadvertently talked to two people from China. Inadvertently the subject of the Great Firewall of China came up (it wasn't my fault). Both people (husband and wife) quickly denied such a thing existed, and simply pointed out that if there was an internet filter it was likely a local thing confined to universities to keep the students on track.

I then got to hear about how great the Chinese education system is, and how the Most Great Best Honorable Lucky Special #6 Nation was going to lead its future generations and the world to impressive prosperity. Or something. I changed the subject/left to go hit the bar up again.

Anywho, these are is the 2nd and 3rd Chinese nationals I have spoken to on this issue that have denied Chinese government control and censorship of their internet thing even exists. Interestingly, the first Chinese national I asked about the subject also denied that Tienanmen Square had ever happened, saying stories about it were lies/exaggerated/made up.

Now all 3 Chinese people I mention are relatively well educated and well off. You'd figure they would be aware of these issues. Thoughts?

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4

Re: Thursday.... Things.

Steve Urkel.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:15:46 PM EST

5.00 (astute)

I've met Chinese who have had family members persecuted by the government and got the same "China #1, China invented everything, Americans have lots to learn from China" shtick from them. It wasn't because of education or indoctrination, that's how Chinese are. China was authoritarian and conformist before Communism; they care a lot about the home team, about liberty not so much.  

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

Steve Urkel.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:51:55 PM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

Related:

Chinese are able to stand up to police and government - at least when there is a Japanese embassy to attack.

See also China's "human flesh search engines".

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Re: Look!

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:23:21 PM EST

none

Xujun Eberlein, the Chinese-American writer and observer...
Ho, ho!

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Re: Look!

Steve Urkel.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 03:58:48 PM EST

none

I don't get it.

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Re: Look!

thefadd.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 10:24:17 PM EST

none

Santa Claus isn't Chinese.

escalators never fail; they just become stairs

1

Re: Thursday.... Things.

joshv.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 02:01:40 PM EST

none

They are smart people who like living in the US a whole hell of a lot more than China, and realize it's really easy to get their visa pulled.

Find a poor person in China who has nothing to lose and you might be able to extract some honest governmental criticism from them.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

port1080.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 03:03:21 PM EST

none

They are smart people who like living in the US a whole hell of a lot more than China, and realize it's really easy to get their visa pulled.

I think it's more a case of the fact that most people just don't take much effort to go beyond what they were taught.  For an American example of this, let's leave aside the whole debate over whether the Civil War was over states rights or slavery, and go for something less controversial.  I bet if you go to the Southern US and ask high school educated whites, you would find a substantial portion of folks who think that blacks were generally well treated as slaves and liked the institution, until the north forced the end of slavery at the end of the civil war (and they will also tell you that war was all about states rights, not slavery, of course).  This, in a country where there are no government controls or restrictions on the freedom of information (indeed, we're possibly the most free country in the world in that regard, or at least close to the top), and with a fairly good public educational system that at least in theory tries to teach objective fact.  Now compare China, where information is tightly controlled by the government, education is poor outside of the rich areas of the cities, and outside of the hard sciences is always explicitly designed to indoctrinate, and where the media is tightly restricted and controlled as well.  I'm not saying that nobody in China knows about Tienanmen or the Great Firewall, or that it's impossible to find out about, but I think that most people probably either think of them as necessary (because that's what they've been taught), or just don't know much about them other than vague rumors, and probably feel about them the same way that most Americans feel about the various conspiracy theories that Obama is a Muslim or not a natural born US citizen (i.e. that they're weird fringe theories that have some vague validity in fact, but aren't really worth serious consideration).

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:13:36 PM EST

5.00 (compelling)

let's leave aside the whole debate over whether the Civil War was over states rights or slavery
That's sort of like the "debate" about evolution or intelligent design, i.e., there is no real debate.

...in a country where there are no government controls or restrictions on the freedom of information (indeed, we're possibly the most free country in the world in that regard, or at least close to the top)
The Chinese (not to mention not a few Americans) would beg to differ. Contrast the US copyright and patent system versus the Chinese system.

I'm not saying that nobody in China knows about Tienanmen or the Great Firewall, or that it's impossible to find out about, but I think that most people probably either think of them as necessary (because that's what they've been taught), or just don't know much about them other than vague rumors, and probably feel about them the same way that most Americans feel about the various conspiracy theories that Obama is a Muslim or not a natural born US citizen (i.e. that they're weird fringe theories that have some vague validity in fact, but aren't really worth serious consideration)
How about the weird fringe theory that Bush stole the 2000 election, or the weird fringe theory that "activist judges" are turning the US into a liberal hellhole? Are either of those true and worthy of serious consideration?

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Threadjack Alert

T Slothrop.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 04:10:46 PM EST

none

I bet if you go to the Southern US and ask high school educated whites, you would find a substantial portion of folks who think that blacks were generally well treated as slaves and liked the institution

Overgeneralize much?

Jesus it's been a while since I've heard that little piece of outside-the-south "common knowledge". 50 years ago at the dawn of the civil rights era that may - may, mind you - have been a true statement in some small pockets of the south. But I can tell you from loads of personal experience with several different flavors of redneck that even the most racist crackers among them don't believe that bullshit today

The whole "the darkies are happy" myth was largely promulgated by wealthy, educated, slave-owning southerners and their descendants to salve their own guilty consciences.  Poor whites, many of whom came out of the sharecropping system themselves, had no such illusions.

{Insert amusing quotation here}

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 09:56:52 PM EST

none

You really think the US State Department would pull their visas for talking smack about China's government at a party?

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

port1080.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 10:01:54 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

I think he means have their (Chinese) passport revoked.  Which is something that the Chinese government has been known to do to dissidents.  Generally, though, it's happy to let them leave as long as they don't come back.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

joshv.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 10:37:09 AM EST

none

"Generally, though, it's happy to let them leave as long as they don't come back."

Which though probably preferable to living out your life in China, is an outcome to be avoided if you enjoy going back home to visit family or for business.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

port1080.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 10:51:47 AM EST

5.00

Agreed - I didn't mean to imply that what I said was a good thing.  Just that China has embraced exile as a way to get rid of dissidents, without facing the kind of international condemnation that usually goes along with the alternative, like execution or long term imprisonment.  Exile: the kinder, safer way to be a tyrant to your people.

Ce n'est pas une pipe. C'est une signature.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

joshv.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 10:35:29 AM EST

none

Chinese exit visa.  They might go back home to visit family and not be able to come back.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

zyxwvutsr.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 08:21:02 PM EST

none

So there's a department in the Chinese government that has the job (and ability!) to discover anti-government statements uttered by Chinese expats at foreign cocktail parties? Or are the people mentioned here just really, really paranoid?

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

thefadd.

Fri Dec 19, 2008 at 10:27:56 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Yes, it's known as the Discover Anti-Government Statements Uttered by Chinese Expats at Foreign Cocktail Parties Department. Or, in English.

escalators never fail; they just become stairs

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

Shy Elf.

Sat Dec 20, 2008 at 12:32:39 AM EST

none

I want to see the menu.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

thefadd.

Sat Dec 20, 2008 at 03:25:12 AM EST

none

What's funniest about that is that they're all accurate ;-)

escalators never fail; they just become stairs

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

pO157.

Sat Dec 20, 2008 at 09:39:33 AM EST

none

I could go for a good rurality salad right about now.

Anywho, I wonder if an American restaurant with menus translated into Chinese has ever had such an........ unfortunate series of translations as the above. Surely there must be thousands of Chinese websites making fun of the American attempts at ChiComm right?

Spread it on!

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

Shy Elf.

Sat Dec 20, 2008 at 04:29:55 PM EST

none

I'm sure there are some, but the tendency towards Chinese dishes having pretentious names describing what the dish ought to make you think of rather than any of the ingredients results in more totally off the wall translations.

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

thefadd.

Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 08:05:13 AM EST

none

...robot chicken, galaxy shrimp, seafood commisioner...

escalators never fail; they just become stairs

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Re: Thursday.... Things.

the chtorr.

Sun Dec 21, 2008 at 06:15:22 PM EST

none

Perhaps they are not only pretentious but pompous and incurious as well?

3

Even feigned ignorance is bliss

delete me.

Thu Dec 18, 2008 at 06:07:24 PM EST

none

Pretending things are hunky-dory is so much better than a) finding out that things are truly shit and b) getting titty twists in a small grey room because you worried about it too much.

- derumi (del-me)
"It is the farewell kiss, you dog!" - Muntadhar al-Zaidi

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