Business

Supremes Invalidate Wacky Tobaccy Law

pO157.

Posted to Business on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 06:31:35 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

In a 9-0 decision the Supreme Court struck down a state law in Maine which required trucking companies to play a part in the war on underage smoking.

The law required trucking and shipping companies to intercept all packages containing tobacco and verify the ages of purchasers of internet cigarettes. The state also imposed the law to ensure they were collecting on tax revenue, something that is particularly lucrative for Maine and other states. Advocates for these companies complained it was not their business to verify the ages of people the packages were being sent to, and that it added extra time and cost to a burdened shipping system.

The Bush administration filed a brief opposing the law, stating that it unfairly burdened the trucking industry with state level regulations after Congress had deregulated interstate commerce by stating no state could mandate prices, routes, or services offered by shipping firms. As Congress did not allow an exemption for tobacco sales regulation, the Supreme Court ruled that free interstate commerce trumped the powers of the individual states to use their police powers for public health reasons.

The law is one of many similar bills passed by other states to prevent minors from purchasing tobacco over the phone or internet. Anti-smoking groups were in favor of the bill because they claimed it cut down on the ability of minors with access to credit cards and the internet from obtaining tobacco when local clerks were unlikely to supply it.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, tobacco (all tags)

This story: 20 comments (4 from subqueue)
Post a Comment
1

Re: Supremes Invalidate Wacky Tobaccy Law

skeptic.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 09:57:36 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

In my own childhood, my parents used to send me to the local store to buy cigarettes for them; I simply explained to the clerk that the cigarettes were for my parents, not for me, and this was considered acceptable.  I personally have never smoked even a single cigarette, and my parents also did eventually give up that very self-destructive habit.

It is very hard to keep cigarettes out of the hands of children if they are available everywhere to adults, since there are many ways to get around age restrictions, including, as noted, internet purchases in which the age of the purchaser is not known or verifiable.  I am also reminded of youtube, which for certain types of videos requires viewers to confirm that they are 18 years of age or older - yet, they really have no way of knowing that such confirmation is given honestly.  It would be very easy to lie.  Whether any underage viewers are being seriously traumatized as a result, would be another question.  I think that there are lots of children who can view adult-type material with perfect equanimity.  But there are no children who should be smoking cigarettes.  That is a very grave error.

People of perhaps sixty years of age or older could honestly say that at the time they started legally smoking as adults, the health hazards of smoking were not well known or publicized.  And even older people in their 70's or older, can recall when tobacco was actually advertised as being good for your health (it helps to prevent obesity).  But since 1965 the hazards of smoking have become very well known and publicized, and the educational campaign has become progressively more thorough and more pervasive since then.  Absolutely no one can now start smoking in ignorance of the fact that smoking is an extreme health risk, and that tobacco is an addictive drug.  I suppose that it is a poignant commentary on the foolishness of youth that many young people still take up smoking, in the apparent belief in their own invulnerability.

While I disapprove of drug prohibitions in general, which have worked very badly, I am inclined to think that of all drugs, tobacco is the one most deserving of being prohibited.  Only if it were actually banned would it become feasible to (largely) keep it out of the hands of youth.  Half-measures are not going to do it.  Of course, all kinds of illegal drugs remain available to people of all ages, through the black market, and presumably tobacco would become part of the black market (it already is, to avoid the very high sales taxes).  However, I think that the rate of underage smoking could be seriously reduced if tobacco was banned.  (For the benefit of serious addicts, I would allow the continued sale of nicotine chewing gum.)  I would much prefer that young people would simply be smart enough to understand that smoking is a really bad thing to do, but apparently there are a lot of them who are not that smart.  And adults should protect children from their own stupidity, when this is feasible.  It's not easy.

2

^ 1

Re: Supremes Invalidate Wacky Tobaccy Law

thefadd.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 02:15:51 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I think the dual fact that so many are able to quit and the fact that "quitting now greatly reduces your chances" of coming down with a serious smoking related illness make for an extremely good argument against banning tobacco. You don't really see ten year olds smoking...the "children" who are found smoking are all old enough to dress themselves, most probably even buy their own clothes and they are frequently old enough to drive cars, so it's not as if they are incapable of making informed decisions. And, if they are somehow incapable of making informed decisions as teenagers, they certainly have the opportunity to correct themselves as adults.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

6

^ 2

Re: Supremes Invalidate Wacky Tobaccy Law

port1080.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 08:57:45 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

I think the dual fact that so many are able to quit

This is relative - sure a lot do quit (I did, with absolutely no withdrawal symptoms), but a lot don't (such as my mother-in-law, who smoked right up until she died at the age of 49 from cancer that was probably caused by her smoking). I'm not sure that I buy the argument that nicotine is more addictive than heroin, but I do think there's pretty solid proof that it is, indeed, addictive to a majority of users.

...and the fact that "quitting now greatly reduces your chances" of coming down with a serious smoking related illness make for an extremely good argument against banning tobacco.

This is a good point.

You don't really see ten year olds smoking..

ehhh....maybe not ten, but my sister started smoking when she was twelve or thirteen, I think. According to the ACS, a full one-third of all smokers started by the age of 14. How can you possibly have informed consent at that age? You're worried about pimples and the growing boobies on the girl two rows across from you, not about whether you're going to die of lung disease twenty years before your time (but still fifty years from now, and right now you've got to try to figure out how to hide that spontaneous erection you got daydreaming about your MILF teacher).

I don't support a ban on smoking - I think adults should be free to do what they want to with their bodies, but I do think that this is one case where maybe we do need to do more to protect the children (within reason). My cutoff line is based on the civil rights of the common citizen - so while I don't support heavy handed consumer-based mechanisms to stop children from buying (how effective are ID checks and so on, really? All my friends smoked in high school in the 1990s, when those campaigns were first started and heavily enforced, and yet they never had any trouble getting an adult to buy them cigarettes), I do support heavily regulating the cigarette companies themselves (personally, I'd like to see a ban on all advertising, period), and I also support policies (such as heavy taxation) that encourage the use of tobacco as a luxury item instead of a commodity. This preserves the right of adults to use tobacco, while taking away some of the youth mystique (after all, how many kids do you see smoking cigars or pipes? The "cool" appeal tends not to be there for luxury items - youth likes to have a lot of something, for cheap, not an expensive little to savor). Using sales taxation to drive smoking out of the youth market's price range is also much more civil liberties friendly - nobody needs to be checking your ID for every damn purchase, the tax itself is untraceable, etc, etc.

18

^ 2

Re: Supremes Invalidate Wacky Tobaccy Law

gerrymander.

Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 02:53:29 PM EST

4.66 (interesting)

I think the dual fact that so many are able to quit and the fact that "quitting now greatly reduces your chances" of coming down with a serious smoking related illness make for an extremely good argument against banning tobacco.

The counterargument to that is, "too many people are making too much money to ban tobacco." And no, I don't (just) mean tobacco companies. Between the taxes assessed at almost every level of government on cigarette sales and the incomes of vote-casting farmers, I'd say we'll see a tobacco ban sometime shortly after crystal meth gets sold OTC.

8

^ 2

Re: Supremes Invalidate Wacky Tobaccy Law

skeptic.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:24:31 AM EST

none

While you argue that teenagers who choose to take up smoking are capable of making an informed decision, the mere fact that they would do something as ridiculous as taking up smoking suggests that their judgment is defective.  It is never a good idea to smoke cigarettes.  While it is true that nicotine is a stimulant which therefore has somewhat of an energizing effect, there are much safer stimulants that we can use if we require stimulation (drink a can of Red Bull).  The health effects of smoking are so dire, that it is an indefensible activity.  Furthermore, second-hand smoke is a problem almost unique to cigarette smoking (although it could become a problem with marijuana as well, if that were to be smoked in public places as tobacco has been).  Smokers in most cases poison themselves and everyone around them, thus transgressing beyond the noble principle that we should be allowed to do what we like to our own bodies (although in theory a smoker could be careful about exposing other people to cigarette smoke; this happens very seldom in practice).  

Still, outright prohibition is very difficult.  Despite the frantic efforts of the War on Drugs, many people continue to use all the illegal drugs.  Presumably cigarettes would still be smoked as well, legally or illegally.  Still, I would get rid of tobacco if I could.

3

How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

port1080.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 05:35:54 PM EST

4.00

My UPS guy almost never even waits for the doorbell to wring - even if it's a package that supposedly requires signature confirmation, a lot of times he'll just sign for it himself and leave it on my front porch. We live in a safe enough area, so I haven't yet felt the need to complain, but clearly this isn't something that he would care about all that much. I used to have friends in high school that would use stolen credit card numbers to order computer parts online - they'd just have the stuff shipped to an empty house and then go grab it off the porch once the driver left. Unless Maine intended to have a tax collector riding along with every UPS driver, I think this would have been a dead letter, even if the law had been upheld as constitutional...

7

^ 3

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

ms sue.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 09:22:12 AM EST

3.50 (interesting)

My UPS guy almost never even waits for the doorbell to wring - even if it's a package that supposedly requires signature confirmation, a lot of times he'll just sign for it himself and leave it on my front porch.

What is up with that? We have everything mailed to our box in a UPS store, but recently a case of wine was inadvertently sent to our house. We were home, but the driver didn't wait for us to answer the door. He just left in on the front step, signed our name, and was off. I find it hard to believe that that is acceptable procedure to forge someone's signature.

10

^ 7

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

ivyafire.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 01:33:18 PM EST

5.00 (interesting)

UPS is a joke.  I refuse to ship anything via UPS due to declining quality of service in recent years.

Consequently, there are many places I no longer do business with because UPS is only option for shipping to Hawaii.

I figure if they don't want my business enough to ship US Mail, I don't need their products.  So far it's working out just fine.

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

12

^ 10

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

port1080.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:47:14 PM EST

none

USPS is really the only way to go if you're shipping to or from Alaska/Hawaii & the US overseas possessions (Puerto Rico, Guam, etc).  Anyone interested in selling outside of the contiguous 48 states would be foolish not to offer USPS shipping as an option.   That said, the USPS's cheap prices aren't exactly fair to us mainlanders.  Due to political pressure, all areas outside of the contiguous 48 are considered "Zone 8", which is the most distant possible postal zone for domestic shipping.  That might sound bad, but it's actually not when you consider that shipping from the East Coast to the Rocky Mountain States is also Zone 8.  It costs exactly the same to ship a package from Guam to Puerto Rico via Priority Mail as it does to ship a package from Idaho to New York.  The USPS makes up for the loss they take on those shipments by passing off the costs to everyone on the mainland.  Because of this, FedEx and UPS simply can't match those rates.

20

^ 12

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

ivyafire.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 09:36:38 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

That said, the USPS's cheap prices aren't exactly fair to us mainlanders.

Ah, but we more than make up for it everywhere else.  Nearly everything else we buy costs more here because everyone else ships via boats and planes.  Things tend to be anywhere from $1 to $5 more here than elsewhere in the US, and some things you just can't find.   Gas is outrageous, restaurants are ridiculous, and lumber has to be shipped in.  We have cattle, but no slaughterhouses, so they ship cattle off to be killed, then ship the beef back.   Wine is expensive here, so we switched to rum. ;)

But there are mangoes and starfruit growing in my yard, and nobody owns the beach.  From my house the view's always free and it's roughly 70 degrees  year 'round.

It's a trade off.  

"It was an ancient rule of Hawaiians that no one should hurt another bodily, or through theft of goods or through injury to feelings.These were the only sins."

13

^ 7

a primer on delivery procedures

1fastdog.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 09:23:49 AM EST

5.00 (informative)

I find it hard to believe that that is acceptable procedure to forge someone's signature.

It's not. But.....
Question: did you track the package and see whether a signature was obtained? Some barcodes (especially from wine shippers) are automatically triggered for signature only release, but not all shippers pay for that. It's possible that he left it as a "Driver Release - Front Porch" or one of the other options on his DIAD if the "signature required" alert didn't show.
It's also entirely possible that he was in a hurry and decided the rewards were worth more than the risks and signed for your stuff figuring you'd rather receive your stuff today rather than wait another day and run the risk of your wine being busted up. Lemme explain: if you're not home then the pkg gets driven around on the truck all day being bumped and jostled while the driver goes about the rest of his day. This may include your pkg being moved to various places in the truck several times as the driver shifts other pkgs around while making deliveries and pick-ups. Nothing is ever static in a UPS truck. Every time your pkg gets moved is another opportunity for damage to occur.
Once the driver returns to his building at the end of the day, your pkg will be unloaded onto a conveyor system along with all of the other pkgs that were picked-up during the day to be sorted to various trailers/holding environments. Again, all of this movement provides ample opportunity for damage as your pkg will be commingling with other larger, heavier items during its transit.
The drivers are usually pretty good at assessing the odds on whether to break a rule to leave a pkg someplace that they're technically not supposed to -vs- the risk of not delivering your pkg  and having it get damaged or misrouted. UPS management in aware that this happens and largely condones it as long as the driver follows some unwritten rules (which I'm not going to post), and customers don't complain.
I process damaged pkgs in the building that I work in, so I'm familiar with all of the stages explained above. Oh, and when I was working as a delivery driver I left pkgs here and there despite some of the rules that dictated otherwise :-)

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

14

^ 13

Re: a primer on delivery procedures

ms sue.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:02:23 AM EST

none

Well, we did complain. This was a delivery of wine worth $500 that required an adult signature.

Since tracking showed that we received it and signed for it, who would then be responsible if somebody grabbed this delivery from our front porch?

16

^ 14

Re: a primer on delivery procedures

1fastdog.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 01:29:54 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

This was a delivery of wine worth $500 that required an adult signature.

Since tracking showed that we received it and signed for it, who would then be responsible if somebody grabbed this delivery from our front porch?

UPS usually pays theft claims w/out hassle* if the driver did something against regulations. If it happens again, try and get the local phone number for your building - ask for the number at the local UPS Store or at any place that ships UPS; they don't normally put the local center numbers in the phone book and they would rather let the national 1-800 call center take the calls 'cuz it's cheaper - and ask for a delivery supervisor. Explain the situation and ask that pkgs addressed to you receive the proper handling in the future. While you've got the sup. on the phone, ask for the name of the center manager (they will give it to you) and firmly tell the sup. that the next call (if one is needed) will be directly to his/her boss and that you'll be forced to bring up all the past problems and broken promises regarding deliveries to your house. Keep all tracking numbers, dates of deliveries, and keep a record of all correspondence (phone calls, names of UPS people that you talked to, letters, etc ) between you and UPS. Center managers are very busy and they don't want the hassle of dealing with disgruntled customers and expect their underlings to handle those things. If they have to get involved because the delivery sup didn't take care of a problem, well, there'll be hell to pay for the delivery sup. and anyone else involved.

*If the customer has a history of claiming theft/loss and all proper procedures were followed by the driver, UPS will cease delivery to that address and make the customer pick-up their pkgs at the local center. Additionally, customers making false claims of theft (which is theft, itself) may investigated by the FBI because that kind of thing falls under interstate commerce, and as such, is under the purview of the feds.

Somewhere in my soul, there's always Rock -n- Roll... Joe Strummer

17

^ 16

Re: a primer on delivery procedures

ms sue.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 06:28:45 PM EST

none

Thanks for the good advice. As I mentioned in my initial post, this was an unusual occurrence because we keep a box at our local UPS store and normally have all packages and business mail sent there. I don't know how this one ended up with our home address, but since my husband is the wine orderer...well, there you go.

15

^ 14

Re: a primer on delivery procedures

Lou.

Sun Feb 24, 2008 at 11:39:14 AM EST

none

I have never been a UPS or similar employee...but it seems that if you had a complaint it would be a simple matter to check the sig...once it became apparent that it was not your handwriting all eyes would return to the driver.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

9

^ 7

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

port1080.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 12:12:12 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

What is up with that?

Basically, they have a quota of deliveries to make in a day and they don't really feel like waiting around for people to answer the door. This is especially true for daytime deliveries in single family home neighborhoods where they feel the chance of theft is low. When I lived in a semi-sketchy apartment building, my UPS driver (who was based out of exactly the same regional warehouse as the current guy, and presumably had all the same bosses/procedures/etc) would never leave anything out in the hallway - we always had to either sign for it or go pick it up if we couldn't be there when he was delivering. On the other hand, he was usually pretty good about doing his deliveries pretty late in the afternoon after most people would be home from work. My current guy usually delivers in mid-afternoon, when he must know most people are still at work, but since it's a "nice" area I guess he feels it's okay. Generally it's fine, but sometimes they forget to take into account the weather. We almost had our wedding album ruined because it was delivered on a rainy day...fortunately our photographer had had that happen before, and was smart enough to wrap everything inside the box in plastic!

11

^ 9

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

ms sue.

Sat Feb 23, 2008 at 05:31:59 PM EST

none

But come on...forging a signature??????

19

^ 11

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

thefadd.

Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 05:56:43 PM EST

none

Almost the same thing and its inverse happened to me...something I cared about that required signature was left then two months later something I didn't care so much about that didn't require signature wasn't left and just got three straight days of notes.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

4

^ 3

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

pO157.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 05:53:35 PM EST

none

How exactly were they intending on enforcing it, especially when they claimed to have jurisdiction over all delivers shipped via the USPS in Maine?

I would have LOL'd if they tried writing up some hapless letter carrier for violating the state ID policy and the Postal Inspector service detained the tax/health department agent for interfering with mail delivery or something.

On a serious note, does this mean I can now send, order and receive alcohol in the mail without having to A) have it sent to me at work because I'm not taking off so I can be around to sign for it or B) in the case of generosity towards 3rd parties, piss off the giftees by having them trudge down to some sketchy shipping depot to pick up their items?

5

^ 4

Re: How were they going to enforce this, anyway?

port1080.

Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 06:07:32 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

On a serious note, does this mean I can now send, order and receive alcohol in the mail

No. The 21st Amendment explicitly gives states the right to regulate the sale and transport of alcohol as they see fit. From Wikipedia:

The second section bans the importation of alcohol in violation of state or territorial law. This has been interpreted to give states essentially absolute control over alcoholic beverages, and many U.S. states still remained "dry" (with state prohibition of alcohol) long after its ratification. (Mississippi was the last, remaining dry until 1966[citation needed]; Kansas continued to prohibit public bars until 1987)[citation needed]. Many states now delegate the authority over alcohol granted to them by this Amendment to their municipalities and/or counties, which has led to many lawsuits over First Amendment rights when local governments have tried to revoke liquor licenses.
It's one of the few areas of commerce where the federal government has given states complete control.

This story: 20 comments (4 from subqueue)
Post a Comment