Business

They don't make 'em like this anymore. I ask cuz I'm not sure; does the US make real shit anymore?

pO157.

Posted to Business on Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:36:10 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

Fears of a depression are tossed around amid claims that a poor economy, labor conditions, and NAFTA have caused the collapse of the US Manufacturing Industry.

On the campaign trail, NAFTA is being blamed for the downfall of Ohio. Once a state rich in well paying General Motors jobs, now its biggest employer is Wal-Mart with a 50% jump in unemployment over the last decade. Economists fear the Buckeye State may be a microcosm of the problem facing the rest of the country, as big losses are expected for US Manufacturing.

Presidential Candidate Barack Obama complains that the controversial trade agreement simply "ship[s] jobs overseas and force parents to compete with teenagers for minimum wage at Wal-Mart." Politicians have been able to make hay on the trade issues as domestic job losses and executives demand wage concessions from workers are looked at as Asian and Latin American production soars.

US Trade Official Susan Schwab insisted it was a gross oversimplification to blame the nation's economic woes simply on trade. Ambassador Schwab argued that NAFTA and trade agreements with South America lead to a net gain of economic growth a decade later. She said the job losses are a red-herring. While GDP from manufacturing has soared 125%, the layoffs are a result of technology allowing employers to do more with less. She argued the best way to further capitalize on these gains would be to adjust taxes to encourage businesses to invest their profits back in the US.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by pO157, NAFTA, trade, economy, business, Hip-Hop Headline, Kanye West (all tags)

This story: 45 comments (3 from subqueue)
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5

There is a hidden revolution in US manufacturing..

ckm.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:42:01 PM EST

5.00 (informative, interesting, informative)

...  and it's because of the convergence of cheap electronics and machines from China, coupled with powerful design and engineering software, and built on the global distribution capabilities of the internet.

This has conspired to make the cost of small, sophisticated machine tools drop to the point where you don't need to take out two mortgages on your house to buy them.  Now you can buy prototype-level computer controlled machining tools for less than $5000 (like the Syil series http://www.syilamerica.com/) and production-level ones for less than $10k (like the Tormach PNC  http://www.tormach.com).  Even a traditional vertical machining center cost around $35k (like the Akira Seiki Performa V2 http://www.akira-seiki.com/performa.html), a machine which would have cost around $100k just 10 years ago.

All this has lead to a quiet, hidden revolution in manufacturing, the rise of small, niche oriented shops selling their goods directly to end customers.   Often these places are one man bands, operating a handful of machines to produce items of their own design, often out of their garages.  They range from guitar makers to RC motorcycles to specialist parts for battlebots.   And, ironically, the only reasons they exist is because of the low-cost hardware coming out of China reducing initial capital outlay and the internet connecting them directly to their customer base.

And there is a whole industry growing up to cater to this crowd.  It's starting to go more mainstream with magazines like Make (http://www.makezine.com/) and places like Tech Shop (http://www.techshop.ws/), but it is still early days.  And the interesting thing is that the Chinese are noticing, sub-contracting work on some of their products to some of these companies....

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^ 5

Niche jobs?

joshv.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 05:50:29 AM EST

none

And how many US jobs do you expect this niche market to add?

28

^ 26

Re: Niche jobs?

ckm.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 02:00:46 PM EST

5.00 (informative, informative, astute)

Small businesses:

  •  Represent 99.7 percent of all employer firms.
  •  Employ about half of all private sector employees.
  •  Pay more than 45 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
  •  Have generated 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually over the last decade.

Your point is?

33

^ 28

Re: Niche jobs?

Lou.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 05:51:29 PM EST

5.00 (informative, informative)

Those are impressive numbers and it reflects what I saw when I was an employment counselor back in the day.  However, there is another side to that coin.  I tried looking for data-licious link, but I'm too tired.  So, I will offer up what I saw when I was an employment counselor.  It's all anecdotal, so ymmv...

I was an employment counselor back in the day and my agency served a town that once been an important shoe and textile center.  When it became obvious that the shoe and mill jobs weren't coming back the big push in the region and through the state was encouraging people to start their own businesses.  The idea took off and the results were really exciting.  But, here's the flip side...from my observation, most of those new businesses centered almost entirely on service jobs...cleaning, property maintenance, FIRE, and food preparation.  Hardly any new businesses to my knowledge focused on manufacturing.  In fact, unless you count a custom car shop and a smattering of computer shops, I can't think of one that actually made things.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with service jobs, but to my knowledge none of the new businesses provided anything but the most rudimentary of benefits to both the employer and employee.  So while the numbers you mentioned are impressive there still remains the questions of job quality and job durability (is it still true that most new businesses fail within the first 5 years?)  The jobs that these new jobs created, their wages, and longevity never really replaced those of the ones that disappeared.  

There is a happy ending though...even though the shoe shops and mills went to Asia (one of my former clients actually had to help box up equipment that was being shipped out by the Chinese company that bought the shop he worked for until he was, of course, let go).  The town finally got its act together and renovated the vacant mills and they filled up with banking, call center, and telecom firms.  At the same time, the town is now a growing center for the printing trade and medical care.  Almost all of the new firms would not fit into the "small business", category though.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

32

^ 28

Re: Niche jobs?

joshv.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 04:55:46 PM EST

3.50 (informative)

My point is that niche, highly automated custom manufacturing might provide a nice living for somebody who can afford half a million dollars of kit (and I actually know of somebody who makes just such a living), but it's not going to put food on the table for the average out of work UAW worker.

44

^ 32

Re: Niche jobs?

ckm.

Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:12:31 PM EST

4.00 (astute)

My point was it's not a half million dollars anymore, it's more like $10,000 to $50,000, making it accessible to tons of people and they are taking advantage of it.  From custom cabinet making to RC helicopters, it's amazing what people are doing.  And there are at least 150 companies servicing this market.

But that's only one side of the equation, the other side is e-commerce and the internet in general cutting distribution and sales barriers.

Chris.

34

^ 32

Re: Niche jobs?

JimmyHavok.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 08:21:44 PM EST

3.00 (astute)

Joe Blow won't make money from customized manufacturing not because he doesn't have the tools, but because he doesn't have the skills.  It takes a lot of knowledge of both physics and art to make something right.  They are harder to get than a $500K tool.

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^ 34

Re: Niche jobs?

ckm.

Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 01:24:28 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

That's my point.  New software tools like SolidWorks and OneCNC allow a lot of people to do this type of work without a huge learning curve.  As an extreme example, look at DP Cars (http://www.dpcars.net/) where Dennis Pavlov basically designed and build a custom car on his own, enabled by sophisticated software tools.

At the other end is me.  With no mechanical engineering or design experience, I have designed and machined a fair number of parts, although not for re-sale.   Most of the problems I have encountered have been due to attitudes in the industry like yours ("you can't do that without 10 years of experience"), but have been resolved by connecting with people who are interested in sharing knowledge and being helpful, while ignoring the naysayers.

However, having experience and the right machine tools are only 20% of the equation, contrary to what industry thinks (and that's going to be it's downfall right there).  Most of the difficulty is in actual innovation coupled with sales and marketing, and the infrastructure to support those two things.   That's the key difference between all those failing machine shops and these new businesses.  That, and the fact that they are not afraid of ignoring standard 'industry' thinking and standards.

Chris.

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^ 26

Re: Niche jobs?

thefadd.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 02:29:17 PM EST

4.00

There's almost no reason for anyone in America today to not be working toward being in business for themselves.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

30

^ 29

Re: Niche jobs?

Coelacanth.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 03:39:13 PM EST

4.00

I used to be in business for myself.  It's a pain in the neck, or it can be, if you have the kind of business where clients may call you 24x7 and want something, or if you try to handle all the business-end stuff yourself... I'm a technical guy, and find it much more satisfying to work for a company large enough that they handle all the business planning, and I can do what I actually find interesting and worthwhile for the human race.  So there's one reason.  :)

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^ 29

Re: Niche jobs?

joshv.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 04:53:57 PM EST

none

I run my own business, and it's simply not for everyone.  Whether or not you are actually more secure in a 9-5 job, being out on your own certainly feels less secure, and a lot of people simply can't handle that.  Many people also can't handle the extra paperwork and filing requirements.

1

swing riots, threshing machines and luddites

wetkarma.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:17:11 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Back in the early 1800s (the dawn of the industrial revolution), laborers in fields such as agriculture and textile were faced with the threat of losing their jobs and declining wages because new inventions such as the threshing machine (which allowed for the separation of grain stalks from husks) and mechanized looms were making thousands of workers redundant.

Workers protested/rioted (usually by destroying the equipment in question) and eventually these protests coalesced into a movement known as the Luddites - marked by a general animosity towards technology especially labor saving technology. While its interesting to note that there are many descendants of Luddites - especially on the environmentalist left, their key contribution in the modern world (aside from birkenstocks) is the economic concept of the luddite fallacy.

To paraphrase economist Alex Tabarrok: If the allegations associated with NAFTA and other free-trade agreements were true we should all be out of work by now.

Susan Schwab is being generous when she labels complaints re:job losses as a red herring -- its actually an expression of complete ignorance in the face of history.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

2

^ 1

Re: swing riots, threshing machines and luddites

pO157.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:46:51 AM EST

none

To paraphrase economist Alex Tabarrok: If the allegations associated with NAFTA and other free-trade agreements were true we should all be out of work by now.

That is not always true. Some professions simply can't be exported away or simplified through technology as easily as manufacturing can. I present the very narrow example of medicine. You really can't expect a patient to travel to India/China (medical tourism aside) to see a doctor whilst they have a massive coronary. Therefore, you would expect many specialties of medicine to be not subject to outsourcing abroad. However, radiologists have been having a struggle in the past few years with this subject. Say you are a hospital administrator, why fight a shortage of doctors in this small field, or pay the obscene salaries they command, when you can simply fax an x-ray or send test images via e-mail to a 24/7 center in India staffed by board certified American trained radiologists who will work for food?

Replace "Radiologist making $350,000 a year" with "high school graduate slinging bolts in a factory making $65/hr in wages and benefits" and you can see why any business owner would love to send their production overseas. It's just that some jobs can't be sent abroad. If I had children I would advise them to find one and train for that field. Of course, if immigration laws get repealed and a flood of highly skilled people wash over the borders then all bets are off and it is a race to the bottom.

3

^ 2

Re: swing riots, threshing machines and luddites

port1080.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 12:32:49 PM EST

4.50 (interesting)

Basically the problem here is that in a completely free and fluid market, the demand for jobs would be perfectly matched by having the right number of people to work them. Pay would be based on the value that the job creates. Unfortunately, the labor market doesn't (and can't) quite work that way because people can't magically learn another job skill at the drop of the hat. So instead of being paid purely on value created, people get paid on both value created and on scarcity (i.e. how hard is it to train/get credentialed/etc).

This is good in some ways - it means that professionals get paid more than they otherwise would (how much value do most social science / humanities professors really create, after all?). Since you can't just "be a professor" or "be an accountant" we have to pay more for those services, since they are relatively scarce. On the other hand, our inability to instantaneously learn new skills also means that if our job suddenly becomes made redundant by technology or so on, we are fucked, at least for a few years, until we retrain for a different job. This is only really an issue for labor - management can hire and fire at will to match its needs, but a laborer needs time to learn a new trade. Unskilled workers realized this early on and unionized, and some smart professional groups (particularly the medical, veterinarian, and dental associations) did as well and created standards organizations to make their specialties even more scarce than they otherwise would be.

The average professional didn't really worry about this throughout most of history because professional jobs tended not to disappear - so as long as you kept up on your field reasonably well, your training was very unlikely to become redundant. The lack of truly global transportation and communications infrastructure meant that professional jobs weren't really "movable" - as long as the local economy was reasonably good, there would always be a demand for professionals. Now all of a sudden we're in a situation where global telecommunications is making it possible to move professional jobs to wherever labor is cheapest, and also to replace many professional jobs with computers.

This second development is fascinating because, if we take this to its logical conclusion, at some point we aren't really going to need much of a labor force. Machines will be able to do pretty much everything - make other machines and repair other machines, do the vast majority of our accounting / investing / etc. There will still be some need for people in marketing, and top decision making, but the vast majority of middle level management and below positions will simply become irrelevant. Even the service sector isn't completely immune to this - how long do you think it will be before Wal-Mart has RFID tags in everything and a mechanized stocking system that completely removes the need for clerks, shelf stockers, etc? I'm guessing we'll see it in my lifetime. If someone actually develops true AI software, then even more people can be replaced in the chain. How will this labor-less economy work? What the hell will people do with themselves?

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^ 3

total automation

skeptic.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:05:54 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

Science fiction writers have been thinking about the question you raise for quite a long time, of exactly what human beings will do with themselves, or the question of what human beings are actually good for, in some future society in which all work is automated.  The most perfect form of the totally automated world is based upon the use of neural-interface to create a perfect virtual reality, so that people are just stockpiled in tanks, and live very happy lives of complete fantasy (or in the somewhat ridiculous case of the Matrix movies, people live rather unhappy lives of complete fantasy, which is generated by the deranged computer running the world).  And since people in such a world really do have no purpose, there would not seem to be any reason why this fully automated world would ever go to the trouble of arranging for human reproduction (people would have all the sex they want in their virtual realities, but no actual children would ever result) so that the human race would soon be extinct.  Quite possibly there would be an actual culture or civilization created by the artificial intelligences that were originally invented just to make life easier for people, and that culture might very well go on to become much superior to any human-based culture.

But honestly, I don't think that we are actually headed in that direction.  In a well-run world, the needs of human beings could be met in an efficient manner, but at the very least, this requires that we limit our population so that it does not exceed the available resources (and the current global population is already much too high, and still climbing).  If we develop an inter-planetary or even inter-stellar civilization we could then support a larger population, but even then we would need some kind of planning for our population, since we are capable biologically of reproducing beyond the carrying capacity of any finite quantity of resources, even if that should be a billion galaxies worth.  And there doesn't seem to be any indication that we as a species are developing the kind of self-discipline that would be needed for population planning.  

And with scarcity of resources comes inevitable conflict, which also prevents the world from being in any sense well-run.  It's not enough to have efficient automated factories if they are going to be destroyed by the efficient automated weapons (or the less efficient suicide bombers) that our enemies will send against us.  Only with both global unity and global planning might we aspire to any kind of utopian future, whether of the fully automated variety or any other kind.

And even though we can all easily figure out that we would be better off cooperating with each other rather than fighting with each other, such cooperation can only occur if we can trust each other to be honest and to comply with the agreements that we make, rather than cheating, and there is no likelihood of such trust.  We know all too well, from the long history of human treachery and deceit, that we can't trust other people, or particularly other groups of people.  And in a world of selfish people and selfish groups, all engaged in cut-throat competition (often involving the literal cutting of throats), there is only so far we can go in the creation of a prosperous, happy world in which all of our needs are met by our sophisticated machines.

Which is too bad, because I personally would really enjoy having machines do all the work, leaving me to pursue my hobbies.  

13

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Re: swing riots, threshing machines and luddites

thefadd.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 01:28:24 PM EST

none

Doesn't the theory of singularity say that we become the machines? If you enjoy your work then what is the difference between work and play? If you can complete 37,000,000,000,000 processors per second by extension of the machines that have become a part of you is that really work in a traditional sense? The basic tasks we undertake now almost exclusively entail staving off death in some form. If we become immortal through our machines, I don't think there's anyway we today can really comprehend the tasks of work and play that will confront our future selves.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

17

^ 1

Luddites

shane.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:10:27 PM EST

none

Luddite is the last name of a man who was hanged for destroying the machine that replaced his job.

40

^ 17

Down with all kings but King Ludd!

secretpath.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 07:33:43 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

Luddite is the last name of a man who was hanged for destroying the machine that replaced his job.

You sure about that? There seem to be about a dozen different versions of the story, but in the one that I recall, Ned Ludd had smashed some knitting frames decades before the Luddites came into being, and the latter-day loom-smashers just "adopted" him as a mascot for their movement. I don't think Ludd was hanged, and the history is unclear on whether his job was replaced by a machine (or whether he existed at all, actually). Personally, I like Pynchon's take on Ludd as yet another incarnation of the primordial Badass.

Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but since no one was listening, we must begin again. -Andre Gide

43

^ 40

Re: Down with all kings but King Ludd!

shane.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:09:59 PM EST

none

I'm sure it is something I read in a (highly recommended) book called Better Off.  I think you are right about the name being Nedd Ludd anyway....

19

^ 17

Re: Luddites

thefadd.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:29:40 PM EST

none

What was that episode of Mary Tyler Moore when they get a computer and are afraid it's going to replace all their jobs and then the computer mistakenly puts pink slips in all their paychecks and they think they're getting fired?

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

23

^ 19

Re: Luddites

shane.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:46:35 AM EST

none

What is Mary Tyler Moore? No wait, don't answer that, I'm glad I don't know.  I haven't watched TV since survivor's first season.

25

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Re: Luddites

thefadd.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 02:42:34 AM EST

none

Maybe it wasn't Mary Tyler Moore. Maybe it was I Love Lucy.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

36

^ 19

Re: Luddites

tomc.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 12:43:15 AM EST

none

It wasn't MTM, it was Katharine Hepburn and Spencer Tracey in "Desk Set".

6

Just how bad is it, really?

stevetherobot.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:58:15 PM EST

4.00 (interesting, informative)

According to an article in the March 2008 issue of Popular Mechanics,

America's manufacturing sales stagnated at the $4 trillion mark in the late 1990s.  But then something surprising happened.  America started selling again -- finding more customers for tractors, steel, plastics, knives and medicines than ever before.  Manufacturing sales hit a record $5 trillion in 2006, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.  "People talk about a doomsday scenario for manufacturing, but that's not the case," said Vinod Singhal, a professor at the Georgia Institute of Technology's College of Management.  "The best U.S. manufacturers have become more competitive, no doubt about it."
  Sales of big gnarly machines, like mining, farm and construction equipment, are up 20 percent since 2002.  Revenue from coal products and refinery activity nearly doubled during the same period.  the business of refining and processing raw materials such as iron, steel, aluminum and copper has increased 40 percent.  Chemical manufacturing, notably pharmaceuticals, grew 22 percent.  Even car production expanded.

7

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:47:33 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

As a life-long Clevelander, I can tell you that things around here are rough right now.  One of my neighbors lost his house when he was laid off from the closed Ford plant.  There are even web sites just for foreclosed properties.  

American-made cars haven't been for years.  My 1971 AMC Gremlin had it's engine cast in Mexico, assembled in Canada, and sold as AMC.  My aging Oldsmobile (yeah, they're out of business) is, to the best of my knowledge, all US made.  When the time comes to replace it, I'm probably going to get a Honda or Toyota.  

I'd like to keep my money (and consequently people's employment) here, but sometimes you just gotta do what ya gotta do.  

there's only one way to find out...

8

^ 7

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:05:26 PM EST

none

When the time comes to replace it, I'm probably going to get a Honda or Toyota.  

I'd like to keep my money (and consequently people's employment) here

Buying a Honda is a good idea, especially if you want to help Ohio's economy.

9

^ 8

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:43:47 PM EST

none

"Buying a Honda is a good idea, especially if you want to help Ohio's economy."

Oh, I'm well aware of that.  My neighbor's son works at the Honda plant in Marysville.  (Ironically, he drives a Lincoln).  

Toyota also has a strong presence in the "rust belt"

"US plants include Toyota Motor Manufacturing, Indiana, Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky,  Toyota Motor Manufacturing West Virginia".

Whichever brand (I had a Chevy that was made in Canada, and that was OK,too), whichever state, I'd just like to keep good jobs here in the area.

there's only one way to find out...

18

^ 9

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:21:10 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

Well, FWIW, Honda is shutting down the motorcycle plant in Ohio and moving the jobs back to Japan.  They claim that no one will be laid off (I doubt that).  Could this be the first of more closings?  I haven't got a clue, but it does make me wonder.

there's only one way to find out...

27

^ 18

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

zyxwvutsr.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 09:58:44 AM EST

none

They claim that no one will be laid off (I doubt that).  Could this be the first of more closings?
It's plausible. Honda has been steadily increasing US market share with its autos and I can easily imagine that it would be cheaper to expand its auto manufacturing capacity by converting part of its motorcycle operation than to build an entirely new plant.

35

^ 27

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:09:46 PM EST

none

"I can easily imagine that it would be cheaper to expand its auto manufacturing capacity by converting part of its motorcycle operation than to build an entirely new plant."

That's a shame.   I've owned a couple of Honda motorcycles (among others), and the Hondas were the best.  I wish I could get back my CB400F.  The Silverwing was great, too.  To the best of my knowledge, both were Japanese-made.

Still, I hate to hear about the Honda motorcycle plant closing here.  

there's only one way to find out...

11

^ 8

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

pO157.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:48:43 AM EST

none

I often wonder about that same thing. Asian car makers put factories in the US. Do they use UAW labor? If not, are the wages and working conditions fair? You'd figure if the unions are all that really are saving our people from working in sweatshops that you would have some kind of horrific Upton Sinclair like working conditions in these Honda plants.

I live in another struggling rust-belt city. I simply cannot fathom the seemingly self-destructive blue-collar mentality some of the folks around here have. We recently a new elected county official who wants to run things like a business because high taxes are driving everybody away and keeping new jobs out. One of his first moves was to make certain government jobs part time that only get 8 paid holidays a year plus vacation instead of 16 paid holidays a year plus vacation. Immediately a torrent of angry letters to the editor ensued in which local union bosses screamed to high heaven that the job of government was to "lift people out of poverty." I posit that this same mentality of 'full pay until the last day' is one of the things that is killing US manufacturing.

Perhaps if the factory didn't have to pay your coworkers $50 an hour in wages and benefits, pensions and no cost insurance for life they wouldn't be so driven to automation.

14

^ 11

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 05:48:39 PM EST

none

"One of his first moves was to make certain government jobs part time that only get 8 paid holidays a year plus vacation instead of 16 paid holidays a year plus vacation."

I have no idea about the jobs involved, but in general I'm against part-time (read: no benefits) jobs, but I fully agree with getting rid of some of the government holidays.  IIRC, when I was working we only got 6.  No Presidents day, no MLK day, no Columbus day, no Veteran's day (even if you were a veteran)...  Either give them to everyone or get rid of them!

Sorry, just my two cent rant.

there's only one way to find out...

15

^ 14

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

pO157.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:22:23 PM EST

none

I have no idea about the jobs involved, but in general I'm against part-time (read: no benefits) jobs, but I fully agree with getting rid of some of the government holidays.  IIRC, when I was working we only got 6.  No Presidents day, no MLK day, no Columbus day, no Veteran's day (even if you were a veteran)...  Either give them to everyone or get rid of them!

The problem locally is full timers get obscene benefits packages and salaries, and due to restrictive union contracts previously negotiated as well as absurdly pro-labor friendly laws it is almost impossible to negotiate with the unions. By paying people as "regular/part timers" or whatever the term is to work 39 hours a week they were still able to get competent people. Even though wages were slightly lower and there were no 16 government holidays plus paid lunches plus hour off early on friday in the summer plus 100% free healthcare plus 100% free pension plus etc etc etc. Hell, I wish I got 8 paid holidays a year plus vacation. Basically the whole thing was a ploy to get around the union, although in this case I could agree with it because of the obscene salaries/benefits completely out of touch with the private sector.

Then again, maybe the local county exec didn't cut enough on the part timers because the part timers benefits package is still completely past what many private sector people get anyway.

16

^ 14

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

thefadd.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 06:44:01 PM EST

none

I don't understand why anyone would argue for less time off in America under any circumstances.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

22

^ 16

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

Lou.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:16:24 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

I'm with you, brother.  Check out where the US falls in terms of vacation days.  You know, Canada is looking better and better.  But then, moving there would only be a delaying action...soon there will be no such thing as weekends or maybe even time off anywhere.

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine

21

^ 16

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

pO157.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 08:14:00 PM EST

none

I think we should all get more vacation time. My mandated two weeks off per year sucks, especially compared to some European countries that supposedly get three-four times that amount.

What "private sector" workers take umbrage to is the government civil servants getting 18 paid holidays plus 3-4 weeks a year in vacation, when most of us get only the majors (Christmas, New Years, the 4th, etc) off and have to take extra time for the day after Thanksgiving or veterans don't get veterans day off and then we only get 2 or at most 3 weeks off a year.

Although the benefits packages given to public sector workers (vacation at least) may be comparable to Europe and other industrialized countries it seems patently unfair when we have to support that with our taxes earned at jobs that give us half or less.

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Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

thefadd.

Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 02:39:05 AM EST

4.50 (interesting, interesting)

Then deny your talents to those greedy bastards. Work for a different company or in a different sector. I get 10-12+ per year--MLK, President's, Memorial Day, July 4, Labor Day, Veterans, Thanksgiving and the Day after, Christmas (plus the day before or after if it's on a Tuesday or Thursday) and New Years (plus the day before or after if it's on a Tuesday or Thursday). Plus all the executives in my industry take off half of August and pretty much a full two weeks around Christmas so those are practically working holidays if you don't cash in yours. In my previous job, I also started accruing 3 weeks annual vacation after two years. Man, was that ever nice. If I ever negotiate another contract, I'm not asking for more $$, just more vacation days. Plus, it's custom to take half days before long weekends, so you can add another 4-5 days on top of that.

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

37

^ 21

Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 01:28:51 PM EST

none

"when most of us get only the majors (Christmas, New Years, the 4th, etc) off and have to take extra time for the day after Thanksgiving or veterans don't get veterans day off and then we only get 2 or at most 3 weeks off a year."

My last employer (a major hospital) had a "Paid Absence Management" program.  At my level, 6 holidays and 3wks/yr.  No separate sick days.  We used to haul our asses in no matter how sick we were.  Smart?  Probably not.

The upside was that you could bank up to 30 PAM days, and still get paid for them when you left.  I quit and got a check for almost $5K.  

Is that a better/worse system?  I don't know.  When I was younger, I had a job where they shut down the company for a week (at their discretion, usually in July) and that was your vacation, like it or not.  That sucked.

I do envy the European countries with 4-6wks vacation.  

there's only one way to find out...

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Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

pO157.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 04:10:43 PM EST

none

My last employer (a major hospital) had a "Paid Absence Management" program.  At my level, 6 holidays and 3wks/yr.  No separate sick days.  We used to haul our asses in no matter how sick we were.  Smart?  Probably not.

I don't know. I can't recall the last time I was ill enough to miss work. I know some friends employed at places that have sick days on the "use it or lose it" plan tend to have problems with employees calling out for colds, feeling lazy, or being hungover. If I ran a company I'd probably have 4 weeks/year off of flexible leave. Use it as vacation or sick, your choice. If you stay healthy you can take a month long vacation or something. That incentive would probably cut insurance costs. If you get sick, well, at least you could have a few weeks extra in reserve before taking one of those 12 week unpaid family leaves.

39

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Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

skeeter1.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 06:34:31 PM EST

4.00 (interesting)

"I know some friends employed at places that have sick days on the "use it or lose it" plan tend to have problems with employees calling out for colds, feeling lazy, or being hungover."

How true.  One former employer had the "use-it-or-lose-it" sick day plan, and we could always count on Willie (once he saw he had another sick day accounted for on his paycheck) calling off within the following week.  Good for him.  I lost lots of sick days.  

My brother (a LEO) can accumulate up to a years-worth (IIRC) of sick days to use whenever he wants. Is that fair to the rest of us?  I don't think so.

there's only one way to find out...

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Re: Does the US make real shit anymore?

JimmyHavok.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:31:04 PM EST

5.00 (funny)

Is that fair to the rest of us?  I don't think so.

I'm burning with rage already.

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dealing with sick days

JimmyHavok.

Sat Mar 01, 2008 at 09:27:00 PM EST

none

Our state civil service puts your unused sick days onto your retirement time, so you can leave early if you want.  My boss has something like five years saved up.

People coming to work sick is just as much of a problem as people staying home when they aren't, maybe even worse, since you lose the work days of those who get sick.  My boss chews out and sends home anyone who comes in sick...but then, he likes chewing people out.

4

Re: Democrats Ask the Wrong Questions

zyxwvutsr.

Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 01:30:10 PM EST

3.50 (interesting)

What is the total manufacturing output of the US today, in real dollars, compared to 10, 20, and 30 years ago?

What is the manufacturing sector contribution to US GDP, expressed as a percentage, today compared to 10, 20, and 30 years ago?

If manufacturing jobs are so great, and if manufacturing jobs as a fraction of all jobs has dropped so dramatically over the past few decades, then incomes should also have dropped dramatically, right? What is the median household income, in constant dollars, today compared to 10, 20, and 30 years ago?

If NAFTA has so damaged US manufacturing, what are the answers to the questions posed above in terms of the current situation compared to pre-NAFTA?

If the Democratic presidential candidates don't know enough about the economy to answer those questions, then they aren't qualified to be president. If they do know the answers to those questions, and they are lying in order to pander to ignorant voters, then they do not deserve to be president. Either way it is clear that in terms of handling economic issues the Democratic party is bad for the country.

10

^ 4

Re: Democrats Ask the Wrong Questions

PenitenziAgite.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 02:43:17 AM EST

4.33 (interesting, astute, astute)

Can any of the Republicans answer your challenge?

 

sierra tango foxtrot uniform

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Re: Democrats Ask the Wrong Questions

zyxwvutsr.

Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 07:57:02 PM EST

none

John McCain has a solid record of supporting free trade. So, yeah, I'd guess that he can at least correctly identify the major trends if not quote statistics verbatim.

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