Etcetera

Six Million Big Lies

MayorBob.

Posted to Etcetera on Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 11:22:59 AM EST (promoted by port1080). RSS.

The story is a gripping Holocaust survival tale.  Misha: A Memoire of the Holcaust Years is the story of a four-year-old orphaned when her Belgian Jewish parents were arrested by the Nazis.  It recounted her subsequent trek across Europe in the company of wolves, survival in the wild, and deadly encounters with Nazis in the Warsaw Ghetto.

The book, published in 1997, was a best seller in Europe and Canada and has been made into a French movie, Survivre Avec Les Loups (Surviving With The Wolves).  The one unfortunate thing about this compelling piece of historical testimony about the horrors of World War II is that it is completely false.  As Misha Defonseca tells it now, none of it ever happened and she apologizes deeply to all those she may have hurt.

Misha Defonseca isn't really her name; she was born Monique De Wael and raised in a Belgian Catholic household.  Her parents were members of the resistance who were arrested and executed by the Nazis, but the young girl was raised by relatives, not wolves.  Defonseca, who lives in Massachusetts, says although the events portrayed in the book "is not the actual reality - it was my reality, my way of surviving" because, due to her parents' murder by the Nazis she "always felt Jewish."  In a statement to the Associated Press she said:

"I ask forgiveness to all who felt betrayed. I beg you to put yourself in my place, of a 4-year-old girl who was very lost."
But Defonseca wasn't a lost four-year-old when she told her story to publisher Jane Daniel in the mid-1990s; she was close to 60-years-old.  Daniel, believing Defonseca's story to be real, encouraged her to write it all down.  Daniel's company, Mt Ivy Press, published the book.  When the book sold well, the money started to roll into Daniel's office and that's when things turned nasty.  Defonseca and her co-author sued Daniel for breach of contract and failure to report sales.  A long legal battle lasted until 2005 when an appeals court upheld a (US)$22.5 million award against Daniel.  Daniel, who has not yet paid a penny of the award to Defonseca, believes these revelations change everything:
"I am flabbergasted.  It's like something from heaven. I feel like the weight of the world has been lifted from my shoulders."
Daniel says she plans to fight the court award because the original contract with Defonseca had "warranted the truth of the story" and thus, she was defrauded by the author.  But there still remains the fact that Daniel's company had earned money through sale of the book ($7.5 million was the original amount claimed by Defonseca).  In a case which has eerie similarities (both books caught the eye of Oprah Winfrey), Author James Frey's memoir A Million Little Pieces was exposed as a fake.  Random House, the publisher of that book, came up with a refund arrangement for any readers who felt cheated.  Only a little over 1,700 people took advantage of Random House's offer, but the publisher agreed to donate more than $1 million to charity.

Tags: edited by Port1080, written by MayorBob, Holocaust, memoir, fake, Defonseca, hate speech, gas chambers (all tags)

This story: 30 comments (4 from subqueue)
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6

Truth During Wartime

uncarved block.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 08:59:51 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

    Why did this book get published? Well, money and fame- and a confidence you won't get caught while you're alive- has been a good enough motive since James Macpherson faked the Ossian poems. (Indeed, Macpherson easily had a longer and stronger influence as a poet than Samuel Johnson, his very public critic.) And doing something wrong is always an easier self deception when the other side is the ultimate evil-- was everything ever printed in the anti-Communist literature of the 50s true in every detail? I have serious doubts.
    And it would hardly be the first time a deceptive child's biography had appeared in connection to WWII anyway: My Sister And I: The Diary of a Dutch Boy Refugee, allegedly by a Dirk van der Heide, but one Stanley Preston Young of Harcourt, Brace publishers, with the intent of getting the US into the war to help the British. (The connection to British secret propaganda is less clear than that Young was a very fervid supporter of the English.) The book was reviewed and praised for its factuality, sold 56,000 copies, and even went on to inspire a Tin Pan Alley song called "My Sister And I". (A tip of the hat to Paul Fussell and his excellent book Wartime.) Even before the war had really started, the frauds had begun, pious or otherwise. Does this excuse De Wael's conduct? Not at all, but it does show a bit of context, at least for me.
    The bigger question, then, is whether this excuses Jane Daniel's behavior. Did she just not have enough experience dealing with older subjects? I've worked with the elderly, and if I'd heard a story like this, a little- a lot!- of fact checking would have been my first step before putting this in print. Memories of even five years ago can be tricky things, as any good biographer should know, much less five decades earlier. Even for a war biography, some of the episodes in here sound very far fetched, though the wolves angle moves it past even other suspect tales like The Long Walk.
     OTOH, I can understand why Daniel might not have bothered. Her resources must have been small, at best, and research would have to take place overseas for something that happened a long time ago. And the Rawicz book shows (if Daniel knew about) that the punishment for being found out might be rather slight, even for a book about the Holocaust. Last but not least was the possibility this one biography would even garner much attention-- even though memoirs have been in vogue, there's a lot of bios published every year, by large and small publishers, and only a handful ever hit it big. The chances of this one book catching on must have looked akin to getting hit by lightning in 1997.
    It's an ironic story, all around. Had the book never caught Oprah's eye, it might have been a long time before anyone bothered to debunk it-- yet catching that publishing juggernaut is what many writers- or in this case, publisher- wants desperately to do. All sides in WWII pushed a ton of propaganda, and outrageous rumors spread in the military and private populations-- yet it's this one fanciful biography that's getting all the attention. Last but not least, there's the irony that this book could have still been a hit as a thinly veiled biographical novel, in much the same way that Borowski's stories in This Way For The Gas, Ladies And Gentlemen were influential if not as factual.
    Quite amusing, if you're a cynical bastard.

Ex ignorantia ad sapientiam; e luce ad tenebras

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Re: Truth During Wartime

postillion.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 10:57:37 PM EST

5.00 (informative)

I agree with you on all counts except for one, and that is regarding fact checking and publishing houses.

Whether a publishing house is tiny (and certainly Daniels' operation is minute as a one person operation) or large as Random House (the single largest trade book publisher in  the U.S.), almost no book is currently fact-checked within the industry.  The reason is because of the amount it would cost to fact-check the many nonfiction books that are being published in the U.S. currently.  At the moment, nonfiction is a larger category than the fiction and generally sells better.  This is an interesting article about whether anything might change after the James Frey incident:
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113858811205659673-WlW3iW1ojZAcRkwOEewE1fy0gCQ_20070129.html

While the general perception might be that books make money, in reality, the cost of running a publishing operation is extremely high.  Paper and print costs are not cheap.  Books require a good deal of labor from editing, to layout, to cover design, and to printers, and finally to distribution.  Additionally, the number of readers is always limited, except unless its publicized by Oprah. New York magazine provides a good breakdown of how little profits are involved for publishing houses by taking a glance at Random House:
http://nymag.com/news/features/2007/profit/32906/

While many outsiders bemoan that publishing houses do not use fact checkers, realistically it's almost impossible.  It will happen occasionally when a publishing house acquires a manuscript that they are aware of as being controversial.  Then, they will generally fact check as well as having a lawyer look over the manuscript to see if they will be sued for libel.

My guess is that either Daniels saw a great sensationalistic book that would sell or that she is genuinely naive and was taken in by the book.  However, whatever her motivation in initially acquiring the manuscript, she did certainly intend to rob the authors of their royalty cut.

1

Yet another one

postillion.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 02:00:12 PM EST

4.00 (informative)

These fake Holocaust memoirs seem to crop up enough that one wonders why it keeps on happening.  Other noteworthy fake Holocaust memoirs are Binjamin Wilkomirski's Fragments and Jerzy Kosinski's Painted Bird.

Since they keep on selling so well, it makes me wonder why people want to read such sensationalized depictions of the Holocaust.  They must be fulfilling some kind of need that people must have in their beliefs about how the Holocaust should have happened rather than what actually happened.

But then again the new wave of historical fiction that has almost no correlation to history makes me despair of people caring about what actually happened.  History, these days, seem to be something that should be manipulated for sensationalistic plots.  The worst was when the Pulitzer committee gave the Pulitzer in the novel category to Geraldine Brook's serious distortion of Bronson Alcott's life in her historical novel March.

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Re: Yet another one

JimmyHavok.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:04:12 PM EST

none

I read Painted Bird as fiction.  I wasn't aware that it was ever sold as fact, and it was so surrealistic that I doubt that anyone except the prey of televangelists would have believed it was true.

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Re: Yet another one

ms sue.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 07:41:12 PM EST

4.00

That was my initial reaction as well. But then I googled  it.  

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fict or faction

JimmyHavok.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 02:59:06 PM EST

none

I googled it too, and the answer seems to depend on whether people like Kosiński or not.  In fact, there's one guy who claims that he wrote the book rather than Kosiński.  Where does that put it on the continuum between fact and fiction?

The edition I read said nothing whatsoever about it being factual.

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Re: fict or faction

postillion.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 03:52:59 PM EST

none

This review of a bio on Kosinski gives a balanced perspective on Kosinski himself:
http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9610/myers.html

Koskinski himself veered a middle path of letting the book be sold as fiction even as he kept on saying that the book was based on his life (I believe Frey has taken a similar approach where he says his book is exaggerated but still has similarities to his life).

In the end, even though I disagree with the representation of such exaggerations or outright untruths as nonfiction, I sympathize with these writers, particularly those who were children during the war such as Kosinski.  Even if his life was not as horrific as he depicted in The Painted Bird, it must have been horrifying enough.  

This is somewhat of a non-sequitur, but I am reminded of when the Turkish government admitted that they had very much inflated the numbers of the dead after an earthquake in the 90s.  The Turkish government said that they thought it was the only way to get the international aid they needed.  

And perhaps such writers who inflate the problems of their own lives believe that it is only by making their lives even more horrifying that they will get the attention and sympathy that they might crave.  And unfortunately, the numbers of sales for these books could indicate that they are right.

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Re: fict or faction

ms sue.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 04:51:24 PM EST

none

My only point was that when I read it, as part of a course on literary criticism, I was totally unaware, much like you, that there even was a question as to it being a memoir. I was not aware that the author apparently claimed that some parts were factual. So any controversy regarding the book was a surprise to me.

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Re: fict or faction

thefadd.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 05:48:04 PM EST

none

It's an interesting point to consider from both sides. I was recently speaking with someone who has written a memoir about some of the things her and her family have been through (far more contemporary than WWII). She is reluctant to divulge a lot of the details in print and thus will likely have to fictionalize parts of it to protect some people's identity.

Certainly, it is a different issue than merely making up salacious details to make people more eager to read it but how much different really? Once you fictionalize it somewhat, how much further does one want to go to 'get the word out.' A memoir is decidedly one person's perspective so how much worse is it if they simply remember things incorrectly?

It is easy to buy small plaster models of what you think life is like.

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Re: fict or faction

postillion.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 08:06:10 PM EST

none

I would make several distinctions of memoir "ethics" in regards to this discussion.

When the memoir is meant to shed light on the events of a larger historical event, such as WWII, whether the writer fictionalized the facts of their life or not seems very relevant.

Where the memoir is more about personal details of their lives and their family and not meant to be about historical events, I think the question is more open as how each member of the family saw an event differs.  

However, I would also toss out the caveat that it is my personal feeling that memoirs are less subject to critical scrutiny of writing style.  James Frey's Million Little Pieces was supposedly originally shopped as fiction and turned down.  Even though I haven't read more than an excerpt, I found the writing tiresome (although I know many people who disagree with me on this point).

I've also wondered whether some of the public reaction to the Frey controversy was because readers felt they had been duped and that they had been made into fools (it certainly seemed as though Oprah felt very personally affronted by the whole thing).

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Re: Six Million Big Lies

sylvie.

Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 01:47:43 PM EST

2.00 (interesting, obnoxious)

The whole discussion in this thread is unreal:

  • Is fiction a legitimate way to deal with history? Must memoirs be true?
  • Who should get the money made out of this fraud? (Some even suggest to give it to those who encouraged the fraud in the first place. Sickening!)

I suggest some more interesting points to discuss:

  1. Isn't the Defonseca trash and the Belmont film simply a case of (Jewish sponsored) 'hate speech' ?
  2. If it weren't a holocaust story, could a one-man editor such as Mt Ivy Press get it translated in 18 languages and make millions out of it? Why not?
  3. Consider the film "Jud Suess": based on historical fact but surely distorted to make the Jews look bad. What an outcry to denounce it as Nazi propaganda (it is still forbidden in most democracies including the US).
  4. Why illegal combatants/partisans are 'resistance fighters' when they oppose Germany and are 'terrorists' when the oppose the US or its allies?
  5. Why do young girls whose father is deported as illegal combattant only get attention when they are (or pretend to be) Jewish ?
  6. Since by now tons of 'holocaust' memories have been debunked as fraud, what makes you so sure that the rest of it is not of the same kind?
Did you ever have a closer look at the 'gas chamber' story, completely based on 'testimonies' and on 'confessions' of German soldiers?

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Re: Six Million Big Lies

port1080.

Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 06:26:33 PM EST

4.50 (informative)

Consider the film "Jud Suess": based on historical fact but surely distorted to make the Jews look bad. What an outcry to denounce it as Nazi propaganda (it is still forbidden in most democracies including the US).


Umm, I'm pretty sure it's not banned in the US.  We have this thing called freedom of speech enshrined in our Constitution, you know.  Even free speech for ignoramuses.  In fact, you can buy it on Amazon.  If you can't even get that right, why on earth would I trust any other "fact" that you're spouting?  

Still, let's take a look at a few of your points.  

Isn't the Defonseca trash and the Belmont film simply a case of (Jewish sponsored) 'hate speech' ?

No, because its goal isn't to make modern Germans look bad.  Hate speech pretty much has to have a living, breathing target, and the target has to be defined by either race or religion.  Holocaust memoirs, fact or fiction, "target" members of the 1930s/1940s Nazi party, few of which are alive today and which in any case would not be considered a race or religion.  Even if it were hate speech, let us not forget that in the US freedom of the press is pretty much absolute, so it would still be publishable.

If it weren't a holocaust story, could a one-man editor such as Mt Ivy Press get it translated in 18 languages and make millions out of it? Why not?

If it was a compelling enough story, sure.  Did the International Jewish Conspiracy promote James Frey's Million Little Pieces? (or did Oprah convert when I wasn't looking?).  Did "the Jews" promote this fake memoir too?

Why illegal combatants/partisans are 'resistance fighters' when they oppose Germany and are 'terrorists' when the oppose the US or its allies?

This is a semi-fair point, but you don't have to be a Holocaust denier to agree with it.  I might point out that we generally give the title "resistance fighter" to those that oppose authoritarian regimes and lay the term "terrorist" on those that oppose democratic regimes, but obviously there are some exceptions to that.  I think probably the biggest reason, though, is that pretty much everyone universally agrees that Hitler was  a crazy, warmongering asshat.  Or did the Jews drive him to do it?

Why do young girls whose father is deported as illegal combattant only get attention when they are (or pretend to be) Jewish ?

Eh?  We just spent three years seeing nearly constant TV coverage of a young WASP girl whose only claim to fame was that she disappeared on spring break.  People love a compelling story.  There are tons of memoirs by Palestinians - if the Jews controlled everything why on earth would they allow them to be published?

6. Since by now tons of 'holocaust' memories have been debunked as fraud, what makes you so sure that the rest of it is not of the same kind?

Did you ever have a closer look at the 'gas chamber' story, completely based on 'testimonies' and on 'confessions' of German soldiers?

Well, I tend to trust the stories of the American troops that liberated the concentration camps.  I also personally know historians who have done primary document research on the Holocaust (no they are not Jewish - one was born and raised in Texas and is even of German heritage himself!) and I tend to trust their judgment on the matter.  To fake the evidence that exists for the Holocaust would require a conspiracy of the level that would be nearly impossible to hide.  How is it possible that governments can be so incompetent about hiding so many things and yet such a conspiracy could be kept secret?

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'holocaust' evidence

sylvie.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:27:43 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Umm, I'm pretty sure it's not banned in the US.

Depends on what you called 'banned'.
As far as I know, in the US it cannot be shown in a normal cinema session open to the public.
It is shown only to restricted audiences (history students, etc) and not without proper previous brainwashing (they call it 'contextualizing'). The mechanism to assure this, by the way, is that the rights of the film are in special hands. Guess who's!
If you have other information, please tell me, I will reconsider my claim and put the movie on the playlist of my cinema in Mushpokee, Tennessee, just to see how free we are.

Hate speech pretty much has to have a living, breathing target, and the target has to be defined by either race or religion.

Strange argument: So wrt the grandfathers of 'modern' Germans, every lie can be told and every trash poured on them.
It is not 'hate speech' since they are dead and not a race anyway.
But then why 'Judd Suess' is hate? The Jews the film refers to, are dead since centuries!

everyone universally agrees that Hitler was  a crazy, warmongering asshat.

Uuuh? Got your history lessons from the back of (kosher) Cornflakes packet ?

Or did the Jews drive him to do it?

Of course the Jews had their share of responsibility in both wars, but that's not the discussion of this thread.

we generally give the title "resistance fighter" to those that oppose authoritarian regimes and lay the term "terrorist" on those that oppose democratic regimes

Are you kidding? Such remarks downgrade your points to 'semi-interesting' (:-)).
Democracies of the British/American style have historically been - and still are - the most war-mongering systems ever existed, the list of their 'democratic' wars wouldn't fit into this forum. Calling their fight 'resistance' and their opposition 'terror' is so naive that you cannot be serious.
By the way: at the end of the war, when, as we all know, democracy won over tyranny, there were 5 presidents: Stalin, Truman, Churchill, de Gaulle and Hitler. Only one of them was ever elected by public vote. Guess who?

I tend to trust the stories of the American troops that liberated the concentration camps

Met one single of them who saw a gas chamber? Met one US-doctor diagnosing one single death by poison gas (they diagnosed thousands of dead inmates!)?

To fake the evidence that exists for the Holocaust would require a conspiracy of the level that would be nearly impossible to hide.

That's what your grandfather would have said when told that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.
Remember the fraud at Dachau, when the US-army proudly presented a homicide 'gas chamber' to the world press? Today it is officially admitted no one was ever gassed at Dachau. There are thousands of such frauds.
I am not saying that every Jewish claim is false. Of course, Jews were persecuted during peacetime and put into work camps during wartime. But that's not what 'The Holocaust' refers to. It is referring to
a) 6 million murdered
b) by an official extermination policy
c) mostly in gas chambers
and none of these 3 claims would resist any normal neutral judicial investigation.
Why most allied archives are still closed?
Why no forensic investigation in Auschwitz?
Why the holocaust-historians avoid every public discussion with revisionists?
Why revisionists get jailed for 5 years (in nearly all western countries, still except the US) for presenting their arguments?

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Re: 'holocaust' evidence

port1080.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:45:44 AM EST

4.00 (astute)

As far as I know, in the US it cannot be shown in a normal cinema session open to the public. It is shown only to restricted audiences (history students, etc) and not without proper previous brainwashing (they call it 'contextualizing'). The mechanism to assure this, by the way, is that the rights of the film are in special hands. Guess who's! If you have other information, please tell me, I will reconsider my claim and put the movie on the playlist of my cinema in Mushpokee, Tennessee, just to see how free we are.

Well, that's another thing then - but your beef there should be with copyright law, not with hate speech laws. You're intentionally conflating those issues. If you yourself raised the money to make a similar movie, you'd be more than free to do so, and to screen it wherever you felt like.

That's what your grandfather would have said when told that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen.

There you go again. It's funny to me that you accuse ms. sue up thread of having a religious faith in the existence of the holocaust - when you yourself express a religious faith in its non-existence (and a wide variety of other conspiracy theories). I suppose we have nothing to say to each other. You will continue to believe what you believe no matter what is said here, so what's the point?

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Re: 'holocaust' evidence

port1080.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:55:55 AM EST

none

By the way: at the end of the war, when, as we all know, democracy won over tyranny, there were 5 presidents: Stalin, Truman, Churchill, de Gaulle and Hitler. Only one of them was ever elected by public vote. Guess who? That's such a canard. Roosevelt was elected President by popular vote and Truman ran on that ticket as VP. Truman also won re-election by popular vote. It is true de Gaulle didn't win election at the time of the war, but he did win many free and fair elections after the war. Finally, Churchill wasn't ever a "president" he was Prime Minister, and he won his own district by popular vote and was then voted PM by Parliament. This, by the way, is similar to the way which Hitler won his position, so I'm not exactly sure what your point is...in fact Hitler never actually took the title of President or won such a title in multi-party elections. He was appointed Chancellor (the German equivalent of PM) in 1933 and then declared himself Fuhrer upon the death of Hindenberg (who was the elected German president) in 1934. While a plebiscite was held in 1934 to affirm this, a plebiscite is something different than a multi-party election (since you can either vote "yes" or "no" - you don't have a choice of candidates). And yes, Stalin was a dictator and by no means a friend of democracy. Nobody disagrees with you on that.

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Popular vote: Churchill vs. Hitler

sylvie.

Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:53:37 AM EST

5.00 (interesting)

Churchill ... was then voted PM by Parliament. This, by the way, is similar to the way which Hitler won his position,

Absolutely not. Since you don't understand the difference, let me explain:

The normal way to become PM in GB is through popular vote: the head of the party winning the elections will become PM.
This was not the case for Churchill. He was never voted head of state through popular vote, but became PM through a maneuver behind the scene - not illegal, of course, but nothing to do with a popular vote, which BTW, he didn't even get after 1945 as 'war hero'.

On the contrary, Hitler, as chief of the party winning the elections, was voted leader of his country by the people.

The fact that in both cases, Germany and GB, a parliament vote is required and some 'president' (or queen) is formally naming him, is of no importance at all for my argument. I thought you would have noticed that.

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Re: Popular vote: Churchill vs. Hitler

port1080.

Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 10:22:00 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

The normal way to become PM in GB is through popular vote: the head of the party winning the elections will become PM.

Yes and no - Parliament votes on who should be the PM, period.  Sometimes this happens right after Parliament is elected, sometimes the PM steps down half way between elections and a new PM is voted in his place (this is how Gordon Brown, the UK's current PM, came to power, as well as former PM John Major, who came to power after a Conservative Part revolt booted Thatcher out).  This is exactly how Churchill came to power - the Conservative Party (of which Churchill was a member) had the upper hand in Parliament.  Their PM was Neville Chamberlain, but he resigned after the fiasco of "appeasement" and was succeeded by Churchill.  Parliament still had to formally vote to make him PM (and they did).  The main difference between Churchill and Brown or Major is that the latter two were selected by Conservative Party back-room negotiations, while Churchill was selected by a more non-partisan group, as they were looking to form a national coalition government which all parties could support.  Also, while it is true that Churchill lost in 1945, his party did win election in 1951 and he served for another 4 years as PM before resigning.  Since you are so upset about Churchill I'm surprised you are okay with how Hitler came to power.  After all, his party did not win a majority of the seats in the Reichstag (they had about 33%) - if the opposition had been able to form a unified front, it could have easily kept him from being appointed Chancellor.

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Re: 'holocaust' evidence

sylvie.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:07:04 AM EST

none

sure, it was meant as a little joke in this sinister discussion. Don't hook on the title 'president', call it 'leader'.
But formally that little joke is true: the only leader elected as such was Hitler (Roosevelt was not president at the end of the war).

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Re: 'holocaust' evidence

port1080.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:46:22 AM EST

none

I'm not sure why, but I feel compelled to keep responding...

Strange argument: So wrt the grandfathers of 'modern' Germans, every lie can be told and every trash poured on them. It is not 'hate speech' since they are dead and not a race anyway. But then why 'Judd Suess' is hate? The Jews the film refers to, are dead since centuries!

The difference is that, lies or not, the attacks directed at the Nazis are directed entirely at those dead Germans. They are in no way considered to be relevant to modern times - nobody watching a Holocaust documentary would feel hatred towards modern Germans. Maybe you would feel hatred towards modern Nazis, but that's different - because being a Nazi is a choice of political ideology, and generally political ideologies aren't considered to be protected classes (especially not in the US, where hate speech laws are pretty weak anyway). The only strongly protected classes are race and religion. Gender receives some protection (especially in employment law). Sexual orientation may receive some protection, but only due to state law - there's no real federal law protection there. Political ideology receives some protection, but mainly in the realm of employment law (i.e. some states make it illegal to fire someone for their political views). We generally allow political propaganda or what have you when it's directed at political ideologies (i.e. nobody's trying to prosecute Anne Coulter for hate speech, even though her books are full of half-truths and innuendo targeting liberals and Democrats. Ditto Michael Moore, even though his films are filled with similar vindictives towards conservatives and Republicans). Those watching Judd Suess or what have you, on the other hand, are projecting those same criticisms on modern, living, breathing Jews (and are using their viewings / screenings of Judd Suess to reinforce or promulgate those ideas).

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Re: 'holocaust' evidence

ms sue.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:08:25 PM EST

none

everyone universally agrees that Hitler was  a crazy, warmongering asshat.

Uuuh? Got your history lessons from the back of (kosher) Cornflakes packet ?

Or did the Jews drive him to do it?

Of course the Jews had their share of responsibility in both wars, but that's not the discussion of this thread.

There is no discussion. You are either a troll or a rabid anti-Semite. And I have never called anyone the latter on this or any other site. There are no facts or evidence that would ever satisfy people like you. And certainly no personal data will be forthcoming from me.

Humans, even those not technically "crazy," have the propensity for evils beyond what I can even imagine. I wish I could understand what motivates such people, but I know that I never will.

Regardless of your motivation, you are one person whom I actually would put on ignore if we had that function here. Until then, I will try to avoid your spewings.

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Re: Six Million Big Lies

Shy Elf.

Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 08:39:33 PM EST

none

I might point out that we generally give the title "resistance fighter" to those that oppose authoritarian regimes and lay the term "terrorist" on those that oppose democratic regimes, but obviously there are some exceptions to that.
We generally give the title "resistance fighter" to those engaged in asymmetric warfare against regimes which we oppose, and lay the term "terrorist" on those engaged in asymmetric warfare against regimes which we support.  Do you really believe that we, generally with some exceptions, support democratic regimes and oppose authoritarian regimes?

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Re: Six Million Big Lies

port1080.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:40:56 AM EST

none

Do you really believe that we, generally with some exceptions, support democratic regimes and oppose authoritarian regimes?

Yeah, I didn't really feel comfortable writing that but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it and I was writing the post on a time crunch. I agree more with what you said than what I actually wrote.

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Re: Six Million Big Lies

port1080.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:33:09 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

I guess once again I should have thought a little bit more before I posted. To completely clarify, I agree with this statement "We generally give the title "resistance fighter" to those engaged in asymmetric warfare against regimes which we oppose, and lay the term "terrorist" on those engaged in asymmetric warfare against regimes which we support" completely. That said, I do think that we generally rhetorically support democratic regimes and rhetorically oppose authoritarian regimes. The problem is that we also rhetorically support "liberal" (i.e. Western in political culture and willing to join in / live by the rules of the Western trade regime) regimes over "illiberal" regimes (non-Western political culture and/or not willing to open their economies), and finally "in practice" we almost always support "strategically important" friendly regimes, whether they are democratic,authoritarian, or even occasionally genocidal. Hence our foreign policy appears to be essentially schizophrenic.

I don't think it's unfair to say, though, that the US would prefer the entire world to be made up of democratically elected, "liberal" regimes, as long as said countries were willing to pay lip service to abiding by the American-generated world order and not actively opposing "American interests" (whatever they're defined at the time). I can't think of any example of the US supporting an authoritarian regime "just for the hell of it", but I can think of (a few, rare) examples of the US supporting or at least tolerating democracies even when it was inconvenient for us to do so. So, I don't think it's a simple thing either way - yes, the US generally acts in its own interests, but whenever strategic interests aren't perceived to be involved, I think we generally at least try to promote democracy. For example - it would have been much easier (and in fact possibly a better idea) to simply install another strong man in Iraq, but we did try to organize elections and install a democratic government. Ditto Afghanistan. In both cases the implementation has been poor, but the effort was made. I also think it's fair and important to point out that a large number of democracy promotion groups and organizations are made up of US citizens and operate out of and sometimes with the support of the US government (and often in opposition to the US government). Because of this, "the US" isn't always a unitary actor, which makes generalizations even more impossible to develop.

16

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Re: Six Million Big Lies

ms sue.

Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 02:55:25 PM EST

4.00 (brilliant)

Since by now tons of 'holocaust' memories have been debunked as fraud, what makes you so sure that the rest of it is not of the same kind?

Since "Personal attacks and name calling are discouraged," I will refrain from the only substantive and appropriate reply that comes to mind.

20

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'brilliant' arguments

sylvie.

Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 10:32:26 AM EST

none

I didn't expect arguments from 'holocaust' believers, even if classified "brilliant". After all, the 'holocaust' is a religious type of thing.

But I was sure the believers were polite, at least when they are obliged to be ...

2

I get the reference...

JimmyHavok.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 02:23:43 PM EST

none

...but that title sounds like Holocaust denial.

I think the book should have been sold as fiction, but it's ironic that a liar has met a thief along the way.  In the larger scheme of things, the thief is the greater offender here.

3

^ 2

Jimmy, the title's mine.

MayorBob.

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 03:23:28 PM EST

none

It was meant as a play on Frey's memoir and, in no way meant to imply that I don't believe the Holocaust didn't happen.  I would have hoped you noticed that I mentioned in my explanation that I was referring to the six million Jews who did perish at the hands of the Nazis.

Yeah, Daniel doesn't deserve to keep a brown penny she earned as revenue from sale of the book, but I read the whole thing a bit differently.  As I mentioned in the write up, Defonseca was hardly an innocent little four-year-old when she spun her tale to Daniel.  Wouldn't it have occurred to Daniel to check the bullshit meter when she's being told this story about a child wandering alone across Nazi-occupied Europe in the company of wolves?  Wouldn't something have screamed FRAUD, when it included Defonseca killing a Nazi in the Warsaw Ghetto when she was seven or so?  No, this story couldn't have been sold as fiction because who would buy it as a premise.  So Daniel insisted that Defonseca swear that the story was true and Defonseca decided to go ahead with the ruse.

My vote in my poll goes to confiscating all the money made by this book and contribute it to a memorial fund for Holocaust victims.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

8

^ 3

Re: Jimmy, the title's mine.

skeptic.

Mon Mar 03, 2008 at 10:38:05 AM EST

4.00 (interesting)

Fiction can have very implausible premises and still be artistically and/or commercially successful. What about the Harry Potter series?  Even with the best will in the world, trying as hard as I can to suspend my disbelief, this series is too ridiculous for me.  Yet it is also the best-selling series of novels ever written.  Obviously, lots of people are buying the premise.  Compared to the world of Harry Potter, the idea of a heroic 7 year old who is raised by wolves and who overcomes a Nazi soldier at such an early age, is not that hard to swallow as a fictional premise (of course, presented as fact it is indeed hard to swallow).

One has to wonder whether the popularity of this book is due more to its success in fooling people into thinking that they were reading about amazing historical events, or more due to good story telling which would have been interesting to read even if the reader knew that it was fiction.  Probably a bit of both.

But certainly, the book should have been presented a novel rather than as a historical account, and perhaps it would have been able to succeed as such.

14

Thought experiment

wetkarma.

Tue Mar 04, 2008 at 04:52:35 AM EST

none

I was in Amsterdam last weekend and walked by the Anne Frank house (and to show how weird my mind is, I thought the sex museum was less gauche). It occurred to me as I walked by however an interesting hypothetical:

What if Anne Frank's diary was fabricated by her father either whole or in part? How would that affect your perception of the Nazi's, the holocaust, or Anne Frank?

Well it goes to show that if you have an idea, someone on the internet has had it before you.

My perspective is that false memoirs such as Misha do real harm to history and the 'evil' of the WW II period.

Memory is a strange bell, jubilee and knell.

28

Lessons from the Defonseca case

sylvie.

Tue Mar 18, 2008 at 09:47:21 AM EST

none

Lessons from the Defonseca case or
'holocaust' brainwashing for beginners, Part I: Survivors
,

The Defonseca case is full of interesting insights.

Before her silly story was debunked, our gullible independent media generally called her a 'holocaust survivor', well aware that this term is a teardrop starter.

Now suppose her story were true: her parents have been arrested for being illegal combatants in a country that had surrendered, not for being Jewish (which they weren't anyway).
She and her wolves had apparently never been harmed by the Germans.

If I understand 'holocaust' beatification rules correctly (which I'm not sure of), a 'survivor' is one who escaped the Germans trying to kill him for racial reasons, not for him (or his parents) being - legal or illegal - combatants in a war.
Otherwise all US troops returning from the war theater and the widows of those killed would be 'holocaust survivors'.

That much for our critical free press...

'holocaust' brainwashing for beginners, Part II: Fraud is 'indispensable'

Another lesson of the Defonseca and other 'holocaust' frauds is how our literature industry works.
Since screen writers, poets, comics authors, etc have more and more difficulty inventing their own scenarios, they end up projecting their fantasies on a historical event.
This in itself is not new: some centuries ago sinister hallucinations were projected on the inquisition or the French revolution, for example.

What is new is the brazenness with which they present it now as historical fact or own experience and how it is used for political blackmail.

Nowadays, someone whose insane fantasies make him eager to describe a girl's violation in detail, is not using a motel in Ohio for that scene, but an SS in a concentration camp.
He is sure getting attention from all 'holocaust' museums, an introduction by Elie Wiesel and with a little chance, an Oprah film team and an offer by Disney.

The assault of the 'holocaust industry' on our literature has lowered the moral standards so much, that, even when a book is falsely presented as autobiographical and/or outright fraud, some US professor will claim:


Although The Painted Bird may not be directly about the Holocaust,
although it may not be based on Kosinski's own experiences during the Holocaust,
it is nevertheless an indispensable document of the Holocaust.

(Professor D. G. Myers, Texas A&M University)

In other words: not only have we to endure the disgusting fantasies of Jewish sex-psychopaths like Kosinski, we have to believe that this is what the 'holocaust' was like.

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